Thanks Car. yes, thanks so much for the reminder about ICO. I had looked at that quite some weeks back but should really just a broad approach and see if all these agents can advise and investigate. I know my situation is unique and outside of the norm but I hope that it is setting a precedent for anyone who deals with something similar. I would not wish this on anyone. If there are any lawyer reading. Read into the injustice and if they read deeper here, know for sure that you may be serving an **EDITED** corporation. the legal system is not a justice system to give "remedy in law" to those who suffer loss by someone elses gain, it is a money making machine. They are registered businesses (eg. registered as such on Dunn & Bradstreet. I hope I can resolve this one. If you have any ideas conventional or left field, I'm still open. S.

Apologies all who have helped throughout this situation. I regret to say that for several reasons not least a tactical choice on my part, I have not succeeded in batting back on this one. Our dire financial circs. remains one of the main reasons. We are ready with other lines of attack should they try to do the same with my wife. I am attacking in other ways too and we have sent the bundles to the lawyers of TV media. Don't know if it will be OK for them to do that but we will fight in whatever way we are allowed to. Other things are that I have sent SAR's to the companies and will send a letter under the Data Protection Act to demand that they cease processing any informatio on us. I will also be trying the route of regulatory and industry bodies to see whether they can be investigated. I would not advise Financial Ombudsman. My very recent experience is that they are a dead duck. My big, big thanks to those who have helped me/us so far. Car2403, Undercover Elsa, Caro, Patrickq1, Spamalot and others. It means a great deal. We are not giving in just yet. At times like this I'm reminded of the old saying "Those with the power win, but the truth wins ultimately."

Faza I can assure you that we have not benefitted from this whole saga. It is because of it we(my wife and I) are in serious financial straits. It is more a question of enforcibility of the documents by the lease company and the bias (from my point of view) in favour of them. Just to remind you we are talking about two seperate court hearings. The first where the judge stayed the original hearing in order to hear our facts as he could clearly see sufficient doubts and the second where the female judge was highly sympathetic to our situation and I was amazed the to hear her tell us this in court (I thought they were all inhuman) and that her hands were tied as the opposition had a stronger case on a legal technicality (my words). She very sympathetically stated that the opponent is quite "likely to defeat our argument on one point of law". In addition she looked at one set of the documents and conceded that "yes the signatures (my signatures) were clearly different". It wasn't just about my forged signatures by the way it was the apparent witness signatures too. They were entirely different on three separate documents. I think the lease brokerage company use a "break in contract excuse". But at the end of the day how in the name of God can they say that. They are saying that they receive numerous documents back at head office without a witness signature to the guarantors signature. Then an entirely different person signs it in the name of the original apparent witness, a so called 'street agent'. You have a signature by a female 'street agent' that has completely (and I mean completely different handwriting and signature) on one document but different on the other ones. It's hard to take quite honestly, particularly when there is the real threat of losing house and goods. I keep holding out hope of something or someone flushing out the truth.

. Thanks U-Elsa, There are vast amounts of case laws on swarb. I am slowly looking through what appear to be the most applicable. Frustratingly the server must be down on the 'College of Law' as it doesn't open on your link nor when I put in to address bar. I'll keep looking. SS. x

Patrick and R&B I feel we have nothing more to lose frankly. I feel like taking a step back quite honestly and just wait for the process to throw up the dirt that the finance companies are covering over with their even dirtier money. Somebody is bound to see through this. I fully intend to make this known to FSA and others. I didn't realise that I could potentially use the ICO as a route to help. I will definitely look at that too. There are just too many get out clauses that the finance companies have at their disposal. Re. the signatures I will have-to wait until the first company produce the goods (or not as the case may be) as we do need the originals (if any) to properly analyse the signatures. I do remember asking for them back in December but funnily enough they didn't provide them! Of course I didn't know about the SAR as I do now through the members of the forum. Throughout I will keep all kind members informed even after my bakruptcy hearing. I hope I get the opportunity to keep stating my case to keep the doubt in their minds as you say.

Spam with ref to the police, we know as of last Thursday that because the sheer complexity of the fraud they are not pursuing "this particular line" at the moment. If there was a wider public interest (which may still happen) then they may be motivated to commit the resources. As I've said all along this is no justice particularly as we could lose our home. Another thing we have learned is that the two lease finance companies have made no attempt to recover the goods against which the alleged signatures were put. 1. How can they legally bankrupt us without doing this 2. How can they also do this when I am one of three people they have petitioned for bankruptcy? The amount for this company is £32,000. Surely they still are legally bound to recover the assets to offset the at least part of the debt. And how can a court allow my bankruptcy along with the other two whilst the first and second are not concluded. By June 26th the situation will be three of us are bankrupt in order to recover an approaximate £32,000 debt and sale of at least two houses and still they have not attempted to recover any of the equipment from the busines premises. DOES ANYONE OUT THERE GET THE SENSE THAT IT JUST SMELLS PRETTY ROTTEN? I have sent out SAR and will attempt anything after bankruptcy because surely there is remedy to our situation. I will protest until I am hoarse with OR about the matter.

Thanks Spam, appreciate that.

Caro Thank you. I'm not clear on whether the judge will accept a defence on the day. I have sent off a SAR today to both the companies. Thanks for the suggestion re. presenting that to the judge. In answer to the first part I'm not sure whether there is a requirement for a credit licence. When I looked some months back, one of the two companies (in fact the most aggressive one who appears to be in dire straits) is not governed by the FLA but only under the FSA. Incidentally there is no visible link to the OFT on your post. Please could you send that again. In answer to the last part yes this bankruptcy petition was put back so that the judge can look at the case more carefully. But as I said in previous post, wife and I are just inundated and can't fight much longer. So the very last part of your question also answered yes we went to court on the original bankruptcy petition.

Thanks Elsa, well this OP and his wife have been at a disadvantage from the start with no legal representation and the solicitor who hounds us knows this. To answer CAR's comment that "the OP stands to lose and be bankrupt in the process" if a private prosecution were brought (oh but if we had the money to do this) the comapny wants their pound of flesh irrespective and a bankruptcy is imminent anyway unless an ace is pulled out of the pack.

Thanks Elsa, I will carefully look at those links.

Sorry you guys but you are clearly many steps ahead of me what or who is OP please

This is sadly so true. There are two lawyers representing two different companies that are hounding us and one of them is just on some kind of mission. I am not permitted to give the names which unfortunately I did earlier hence the heavy edit but the first finance company have been deeply crooked as we now learn that as of around February 2009 there industry credit rating has dropped through the floor so they stupidly have been using a sledgehammer to crack a nut

Trooper I am pretty certain that the agreements do not come under CCA.

Thanks I hadn't considered that. Although as far as my unerstanding goes, this is would not be granted in a bankruptcy hearing.

Yes my petition is on the 12th June. I know but I still hold out this naive hope that even after the petition for Bankruptcy is granted we can still get it overturned. Thanks for that. I know instinctively that we will beat them. It feels like you guys are like diamonds among coals.

SEE THE ANSWERS ABOVE THANKS SPAM'

Yes it is as I said a little convoluted and it appeared to scare off the back water solicitor here in Mid Wales. Also we feel the size and complexity of the case meant that the CLS weren't prepared to fund it all the way. You know though, it only takes one or two little things for the whole thing to unthread for them and I still see it as my duty to my family to keep doing that. Thanks for the advice

Thanks Trooper. It's funny I kept looking and looking at the 'Subject Access Request' info yesterday on the site and I think you're right. I will do that today. I honestly think it is still 60% 40% in their favour this week in their petition. On a personal level I genuinely appreciate your kind words. One feels so impotent against them. Yes the lawyers do act quite agressively.

Morining Spamalot, thanks. You know when something just doesn't fit it bothers you. When I asked the CID a month or so ago whether they have ALL the original docs they said "NO". I am not an expert but even I know that you need the originals to prove fraud. Many of the signatures of the female alleged witness are so blatantly forged by another person. Of course **EDITED** will hide behind "breaks in contract" and other things. What is really hard is that the lawyer is so arrogant he even stated this fact to us by email about three weeks ago. We stated to him that my wife was attempting to get a professional opinion from a criminal handwriting expert at Birmingham University. But it is futile when the documents aren't the original. Incidentally we were told that original documents with our respective signatures on were destroyed by **EDITED** I think back in late 2007 and new one produced. We think the dirty deeds were committed after this.

Hi Smouk thank you for your response. I called CID last Tuesday and they say they can't at this time charge the person as they feel they cannot confidently charge him. You see what the criminal has done is scammed 8 of us in total and I paraphrase the CID officer who took statement from us months ago "he has divided and ruled". So therefore each witness instead of working together are simply trying to protect their corner and of course the statements ar in places conflicting. Of course **EDITED** are using every excuse in the books. I get the impression that this particular police force (**EDITED**) just haven't got that water tight case for CPS absurd really a crime is a crime to a lay person like me. Beyond that I am certain this character who has conned us is being investigated by the Met but that doesn't relate to our case. meantime the jolly Civil Court system is allowing the finance company to get there grubby hands on what they can as quickly as they can. In fact they (**EDITED**) dropped the petion against two other alleged gauarantors on the basis of the investigation and they continued with us because we prejudiced ourselves with not having any legal help form the beginning. For my own balance of mind I do need to shame these people. What they are doing is illegal and immoral. Sorry about the outburst but it is hard when the system is in favour of those in power.

Thanks 300. It is very complex and that has worked into the hand of the fraudster/s (We really do believe it is more than the MD of this Company). You are on the money when you state that "Fraud is hard to prove". How helpless and completely empty you feel when you yourself know what has happened but no-one at the moment can do enough to assist. Publish and be damned I am going to reveal reptiles who are forcing us into bankruptcy and potentional loss of our home and dream. The despicable lease brokers (**EDITED**) one of whose representatives did comit fraud with the MD to whom we agreed to help. Like the stinking greed that is running through finance companies they didn't check properly. the due diligence is non-existent and we just know they have covered their tracks as they are up to their necks in it. Second to that is a greedy, cynical and highly aggressive company based in Manchester (**EDITED**) whose lawyer has been on a vendetta to grab what money he, they can despite deliberatley witholding apparent signed gauarantee documents by my wife and I. let me make it very clear that on the day that we are purported to have signed them I did not sign the document and the witness submitted an affidavit that did not admit to my signing it (she, the witness knewe that by doing so she would be committing perjury). Also my wife had never met this representative of **EDITED**). I just want justice and fairness and the company (**EDITED**) have no legal or moral right to deprive us of what is ours NOT THEIRS. I want to continue to fight for what is right and shame them. I appreciate any help. Thanks a million 300. I guess many of you have been in that lonely place where you feel you are fighting alone...

Hi, please can anyone help with this injustice? I and my wife learned by October of 2008 that we were the victims of a quite complicated fraud and dception which has also regrettably affected my wife's mother. It's an awful situation! We find that rather than be the signatories to TWO personal guaranteed on a business which we were silent partners it turns out that the snake who was MD of the company had fraudulently completed aproximately 8 other personal gauarantees for LEASES with not just forged documents on us but on three other people. We informed the Police in October but it is such a comlex case they are finding it difficult to prosecute. We firmly believe that a representative from the lease brokerage comapny was comlicit too. The heartbreaking thing now is that my wife's mother and us face losing our homes. One of the lease companies despite our continued defence has agressively pursued us in the most cynical way in the Civil Courts. The acting solicitor has all the way abused the legal process and deliberately witheld contested documents which we pointed out to the judge who presided over the bankruptcy petition against me. He was very quickly persuaded and judged it was a trialable issue which is great for us however we are flat broke and can't fight any longer. My Bankruptcy hearing is on June 12th. It's so wrong that we are being bullied by these finance companies who can afford to throw money at lawyers to bully the likes of us who can't afford legal representation. They know that fraud has been comitted but are using every [problem] in the book to cover their tracks. Any help with the restitution legally and the loss we are facing is appreciated. Thanks for taking the time to read.

42 I and my OH have received second similar letter with threats and we are just a month in arrears. The charges are obscene. I am about to work on a response to them and avidly watching this thread. Regards all SS.

Thanks to all of you for your replies, it's genuinely appreciated. I have been watching the FSA's investigations into punitive bank charges and felt a little dismayed that microbusinesses (self-employed such as my own) will not get the same rights of challenge as the personal account holders. I took the advice I read on CAG to not push it too hard as there is a greater likelyhood that reclaiming or at least protesting to the bank in relation to business accounts will not succeed. I and my wife still have a genuine and very strong case against Natwest as well as HSBC. Thanks again folks.

Hello members this is my first post to the site as I am new member. I hope more out there can advise of experiences for business as well as personal problems with HSBC. I just want to get on with business but find the sytem of banking to have pushed myself and my partner into a corner. If the business or consumer relationship were not corrupt, people would not make this stand/fight and we could still all make a decent living. Best wises Stephen