Looks like I'm stuck - I guess I'll phone Shoosmiths tomorrow and accept the debt - now they have provided the information. Thanks for your help Regards Chris

Hi Car2403/Chris Any comments on the documents? Regards Chris

Thanks BankFodder The house has been for sale for 2 years - I have reduced the price significantly, but the market in my area is dead. I've been to see debt counsellors at the CAB - but they were little help. I appreciate your support. Regards Chris

Hi BankFodder I ran up an overdraft on one account which with interest is now over £20k, the other account had an overdraft of approx £1k. Because I managed within the overdraft limit most of the time (either by increasing the limit or by stupidly taking cash from credit cards) there are few charges on the account. Most of the increase is from interest continuing to be added to the bill at whatever standard rate Natwest are charging. The loan account has interest added quarterly with payments made monthly - I don't think there are any charges (maybe a small default charge) On that basis - what do you think about how to proceed? It would be easier to accept Natwest's figures (argue costs as they didn't meet the original CPR request) and not have to go to court (all that paperwork plus court would cost me a day off work). I could phone them and negotiate a few hundred pounds off for charges. Thanks again Chris

Hi BankFodder - I found the spreadsheet and went through all the statements for my main account. Do I do this for the loan account (no charges, just interest applied on a monthly basis)? Here is the spreadsheet results £303 penalties charged, £131.24 interest on penalties- it doesn't seem spectacular against the debt of approx £20,000 on this account. Is this worth proceding on this basis?

First page from the Advantage Premier Finance Application:

Other documents:

Try again Amended POC:

Hi Chris - I'm not sure that posting the links to photobucket is working - can you see the documents? Regards Chris

Try again sorry....

Would a paste be better than a link?

I put both the original and the new ones up I can see them - I posted a link to photobucket

The other documents are as follows:

Hi Chris The POCs are as follows: Original: Amended:

Original POC link: Amended POC link: Hope this is ok. Regards Chris

Hi BankFodder - I read when this case started that as a court case was underway, I didn't need to put in a Subject Access Request - but request disclosure under the Civil Procedure Rules - so I sent the following: REQUEST FOR INFORMATION I have received a recent court claim from your organisation. In order to file a defence and counter claim I require some information. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules, the information and documents detailed below. The information must be furnished within fourteen days of the receipt of this letter. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an Order enforcing your compliance will be sought. 1. A true copy of the executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened. 2. All records you hold on me relevant to this case, including but not limited to a. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor. b. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with National Westminster Bank plc. c. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold. d. Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable). e. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers. f. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied. g. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998 h. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed. i. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement. 3. Any other documents you seek to rely on in court. I will require this information within the next fourteen days. I must advise you that if the information is not forthcoming, it will be reported to the Court that you are trying to frustrate proceedings and denying me the opportunity to file a defence and counter claim. I received no information in reply to this, hence my embarrassed defence originally. It wasn't until The Judge finally ordered that NatWest must submit amended particulars of claim giving full deatils of account balances and setting out the contractual basis for its claim by 22/05/09 that the pack that arrived 2 days ago came - with the statements and the scanned documents. Does this change matters? Do I still now need to send in a SAR? Where do I find the spreadsheet to calculate interest? I will review the statements tonight. Thanks Chris

Do I need to repost the scans?

Sorry to appear stupid - but where did the scanned docs I posted go? Why split the post up? Surely all I need to do at the moment is put together an Amended Defence? Is it that the Defence will consist of objections to the validity of the agreements and claims on charges? I'm lost - I'm a newbie here.... Regards Chris

Hi BankFodder - sorry if I wasn't clear - but Natwest/Shoosmiths have sent the details - to which I have to respond. I appear to have all (or most) of the statements. I'm just reading how to attach scanned documents. My worry is that I am away on business several days this week - it is one of the busiest weeks of the year for me at work and I'm working 12 to 15 hour days all week. Then picking up my sons from Heathrow on Saturday and going on holiday for 8 days - which leaves me almost no time. Do you think the court will allow more time?

Please help me - I have no idea what to do next....I'm tempted just to let the court papers go through as I have no way to pay all my creditors and Egg have already successfully applied 2 CCJs and put a charge on my house. The story is... I received a court claim from Shoosmiths on behalf of Natwest in Nov 2008. The claim was for 2 bank accounts and a loan account that I defaulted on several years ago and have been paying via the CCCS under a DMP. Their Particulars of Claim were vague and incomplete so I sent a request for information letter under the Civil Procedure Rules - asking for copies of the credit agreement, all records, details of charges etc. I received a letter back basically stating that I was fishing for information and could only ask for relevant information. I sent an Acknowledgement of Service to the court stating that I would defend and submitted the following defence: 1. The particulars of claim discloses no cause of action and are self evidently an abuse of process, in that they fail to deal with the basic rules of pleading in accordance with the CPR (even allowing for the constraints of the bulk issue system). 2. Further to that above the defendant is unable to plead effectively or at all. The defendant is embarassed. Shoosmiths on behalf of Natwest responded with a pack of paperwork with reference statements for the accounts, a signed copy of the application form for one bank account and terms and conditions; a copy of the executed credit agreement for the loan account and copies of lots of statements. The judge finally ordered that Natwest must submit amended particulars of claim giving full deatils of account balances and setting out the contractual basis for its claim by 22/05/09 and that I must submit an amended defence by 22/05/09 On the 20th May, having had nothing from Shoosmiths/Nat West, I wrote to the court (and phoned) stating I had received no amended Particulars of Claim and asking for the matter to be referred back to the Judge. I then received a General Form of Judgement ordering that I must submit an amended defence by 19/06/09 or judgement would be made. I phoned, wrote and faxed the court to state again that I had received no amended Particulars of Claim and asking for the matter to be referred back to the Judge and for the Claim to be struck out. I have now received (dated 15th June 09 - served 17th June) a General Form of Judgement or Order with the amended Particulars of Claim from Natwest/Shoosmiths giving me to the 3rd July 09 to submit an Amended Defence - with details of the accounts, amounts owing, a signed copy of the application form for the main bank accounts (with terms and conditions and copies of bank statements from 2002 to the Nov 2008), a signed copy of the credit agreement for the loan account with statements, and copies of bank statements for the minor account but no agreement. The one challenge with this date is that I am holiday from 27th June with my 2 teenage sons who I haven't seen in 2 years - my ex-wife took them to live in Canada and didn't send them back for holidays as agreed in a unenforceable UK court order. I obviously had run up the overdrafts on 2 bank accounts - originally totaling about £16,000 - had a Nat West Gold Card with approx £800on it that they paid from my bank account. With interest added even though I was under a DMP, the total has risen to over £21,000. The loan account with interest has risen to over £13,000. They are claiming £33,200.66 and costs. What can I do? Do I just accept that they have continued to add interest (I did borrow the money originally), let the claim go through and eventually end up with another CCJ, and a futher charging order? Note my house now has the mortgage, a secured loan, a charging order for moeny lent by family, a charging order by Egg, a charging order from my solicitors (years of legal fights over my children) - there is no equity left! Please help - any advise is greatfully accepted. Sorry for the long post.

Please help me - I have no idea what to do next....I'm tempted just to let the court papers go through as I have no way to pay all my creditors and Egg have already successfully applied 2 CCJs and put a charge on my house. The story is... I received a court claim from Shoosmiths on behalf of Natwest in Nov 2008. The claim was for 2 bank accounts and a loan account that I defaulted on several years ago and have been paying via the CCCS under a DMP. Their Particulars of Claim were vague and incomplete so I sent a request for information letter under the Civil Procedure Rules - asking for copies of the credit agreement, all records, details of charges etc. I received a letter back basically stating that I was fishing for information and could only ask for relevant information. I sent an Acknowledgement of Service to the court stating that I would defend and submitted the following defence: 1. The particulars of claim discloses no cause of action and are self evidently an abuse of process, in that they fail to deal with the basic rules of pleading in accordance with the CPR (even allowing for the constraints of the bulk issue system). 2. Further to that above the defendant is unable to plead effectively or at all. The defendant is embarassed. Shoosmiths on behalf of Natwest responded with a pack of paperwork with reference statements for the accounts, a signed copy of the application form for one bank account and terms and conditions; a copy of the executed credit agreement for the loan account and copies of lots of statements. The judge finally ordered that Natwest must submit amended particulars of claim giving full deatils of account balances and setting out the contractual basis for its claim by 22/05/09 and that I must submit an amended defence by 22/05/09 On the 20th May, having had nothing from Shoosmiths/Nat West, I wrote to the court (and phoned) stating I had received no amended Particulars of Claim and asking for the matter to be referred back to the Judge. I then received a General Form of Judgement ordering that I must submit an amended defence by 19/06/09 or judgement would be made. I phoned, wrote and faxed the court to state again that I had received no amended Particulars of Claim and asking for the matter to be referred back to the Judge and for the Claim to be struck out. I have now received (dated 15th June 09 - served 17th June) a General Form of Judgement or Order with the amended Particulars of Claim from Natwest/Shoosmiths giving me to the 3rd July 09 to submit an Amended Defence - with details of the accounts, amounts owing, a signed copy of the application form for the main bank accounts (with terms and conditions and copies of bank statements from 2002 to the Nov 2008), a signed copy of the credit agreement for the loan account with statements, and copies of bank statements for the minor account but no agreement. The one challenge with this date is that I am holiday from 27th June with my 2 teenage sons who I haven't seen in 2 years - my ex-wife took them to live in Canada and didn't send them back for holidays as agreed in a unenforceable UK court order. I obviously had run up the overdrafts on 2 bank accounts - originally totaling about £16,000 - had a Nat West Gold Card with approx £800on it that they paid from my bank account. With interest added even though I was under a DMP, the total has risen to over £21,000. The loan account with interest has risen to over £13,000. They are claiming £33,200.66 and costs. What can I do? Do I just accept that they have continued to add interest (I did borrow the money originally), let the claim go through and eventually end up with another CCJ, and a futher charging order? Note my house now has the mortgage, a secured loan, a charging order for moeny lent by family, a charging order by Egg, a charging order from my solicitors (years of legal fights over my children) - there is no equity left! Please help - any advise is greatfully accepted. Sorry for the long post.