Thanks very much for your help, much appreciated.

I see, so I should send them a letter along the lines of the one suggested telling them that they still haven't complied with my request, even though they say they have?

Thanks for the quick reply. So what they are saying and the part of the act they quote isn't true then? They have to send me a copy of the original signed agreement?

I have today received the attached letter from CITI Financial in response to a request I made some months back for a copy of my credit agreement. Also enclosed were two typed documents one saying it is a credit agreement the other a credit card agreement. Both have my details entered as debtor and CITI Financial as creditor. Neither are copies but printed word documents and neither has any dates or signatures.

As you can see from their letter, they say that this is all they need to send me but surely this cannot be correct? There is no contract here as neither I nor them have signed the enclosed documents.

I should be very grateful if anyone on here can help me in how I should reply to this.

Many thanks.

BB

CITICARD 17 Feb..pdf

Thanks folks, much appreciated.

BB

I have today received a letter from Moorcroft Debt Recovery threatening court action if I do not pay a debt they say I owe HSBC. I had previously received a letter from Equidebt regarding the same matter back in April 2008.

I sent Equidebt a CCA request in April 2008 but heard nothing from them. The next thing I get the letter from Moorcroft. I am intending to write to Moorcroft but wanted some advice as to what I should say to them regarding the previous request. Should I just request a CCA from them or should I tell them that the previous CCA request is still outstanding and say that the matter is in dispute?

Any help will be much appreciated.

Thanks.

BB

I have had pretty much the same letter from Cabot, I am going to wait and see what comes next, seen as it is the last correspondence from them on the matter lol

 

 

 

Regards

 

David

I think so too, lol. They will however "as a gesture of goodwill" wait 14 days though:rolleyes:

tell them to take you to court if they think all is in order.

 

 

Nott

I think they know they have nothing and it's just typical scare tactics but it's always good to hear the views of others on here.

Please see previous correspondence with Cabot on this. They are still arguing that they sent me a valid credit agreement when they quite plainly did not. I've attached their latest letter and would be very grateful for any advice on how I should reply please.

Many thanks.

BB

Cabot 8 April 09.pdf

Thanks very much Vex and PT I really appreciate your help.

BB

Sorry Bada Bing

 

Between my last post and this i popped out to watch the football. I've had one too many beers by now (i know its early) to give you a decent response. I'll look at the next point that you have raised, and offer you my tip tomorrow.

 

Another link you kight like to cast you eye over on this site is via user 'Joe Blow' - former employee of MBNA:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/129987-i-used-work-mbna.html?highlight=default

 

Logging back in tomorrow

 

Thanks, Vex

Cheers, much appreciated. Hope you enyoyed the match!

Any ideas as to how I should reply to this part?

"With regards to your query relating to the notice of assignment of your debt, please note that the copy sent to you on 13 November 2008 was a representation of the letter originally sent on 20th September 2001, as stated clearly at the top of the letter."

The letter they enclosed with the application form they sent was on MBNA headed paper, had an original signature from "Stuart Ashcroft Asset Sales Manager" and was dated 10 November 2008. Contrary to what they say above, there was nothing to say this was a "representation" of an original. What does this "representation" mean? Is this legal? I've looked on threads regarding assisgnment and think it isn't but would appreciate some clarification if anyone has any knowledge of this.

Thanks.

BB

Ok Bada Bing

 

First of all, I’d always expect a DCA, or even the original creditor to dispute your claimed position. Expect this to happen once or perhaps twice. You should see these as efforts to try and convince you that all you have researched and all that you have been told is full of errors and inaccuracies.

 

I expect this kind of aggressive behaviour from DCA’s to continue with greater frequency. As more people challenge their debts, the DCA’s are being pushed into a corner and their collecting is becoming harder.

 

Taking their letter in order:

 

“However please be advised that although the original copy may not be available, MBNA has supplied Cabot with a copy of the original which you signed and satisfies all requirements of both MBNA and Cabot.

 

In my opinion this is deliberately mischievous, and tells you nothing. It claims that all requirements are satisfied. It is an irrelevant point.

 

Under section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 it states "the creditor... shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any)" and stress the words "if any". Cabot has been provided with a copy of the agreement from MBNA and therefore, this satisfies all obligations of both parties.

 

First of all, their line on “if any”. In other words, if there isn’t any, then there will be nothing to give the debtor, and nothing more can be done.

 

Secondly, they state that Cabot has been supplied with a copy of the agreement from MBNA, and satisifies all abligations of both parties. This is another load of nonsense. It may well satisfy each of them, but is has not satisfied your request and will not satisfy a judge.

 

Now onto the rest of the letter from these credit perverts….

 

“This is a Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Sign it only if you want to be legally bound by its terms". You shall also note on the credit agreement that under the heading "Declaration" it states "Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974", Therefore, this constitutes a valid credit agreement, which is regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and under the terms of the agreement”.

"With regards to the requirements of the agreement regulations 198311553 concerning the form and content of the agreement, these regulations do not deal with this matter, as it is the CCA that deals with this matter as primary legislation. Section 189(4) of the CCA states:"

 

I will not give them the benefit of the doubt that the additional 1 in there is a typo. SI 1983 1553 DOES apply. They are talking B***S***. So that you are completely happy that you are not being fed nonsense, the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) DO apply……………

 

 

For an agreement to be compliant with the regulations it MUST embody WITHIN the agreement, the prescribed terms laid out in the SI1983/1553 without the prescribed terms the agreement does not conform to section 60(1) 1974 and therefore cannot be properly executed as described in section 61(1) CCA 1974.

 

For your information in case you are unsure. The prescribed terms referred to are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following--

(a)Number of repayments;

(b)Amount of repayments;

©Frequency and timing of repayments;

(d)Dates of repayments;

(e)The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

 

The copies that you have attached to your thread are woefully short of having any of this in one document. Without being able to read the text (because of the poor copy) there isn’t even enough words for a start. Perhaps they have one in braile !!!!

 

Just so that there is no room for confusion, and this bit always helped me in my endeavours for a debt free existence……

 

The person who wrote the Consumer Credit Act 1974 sets it out quite nicely, and as this has been copied into this site on many, many threads…

 

“As the draftsman of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 I would like to thank Dr Richard Lawson for his interesting and well-argued article (30 August 2003) on Wilson v First County Trust Ltd [2003] UKHL 40, [2003] 4 All ER 97.

Dr Lawson may be interested to know that I included the provision in question (section 127(3)) entirely on my own initiative. It seemed right to me that if the creditor company couldn’t be bothered to ensure that all the prescribed particulars were accurately included in the credit agreement it deserved to find it unenforceable, and that the court should not have power to relieve it from this penalty. Nobody queried this, and it went through Parliament without debate. I’m glad the House of Lords has now vindicated my reasoning and confirmed that nobody’s human rights were infringed.” - 167 Justice of the Peace (2003) 773.

 

The agreement cannot be set out in separate documents. It has to be within the ‘frame’ of one – complete – in other words their fanciful words in their point (b) are the words of a desperate drone.

 

Hope that makes sense. Apologies if there are any typos of my own. I've been cutting and pasting

 

 

 

 

Cheers, Vex

Thanks so much for that Vex, it has confirmed what I had thought, that they are just trying it on. I really appreciate your time in replying. I will write back to them and let you know what they come up with next!

BB

Bada Bing

 

I'm reading through a copy of that letter from Cabot now, and will comment back here soon. Meanwhile, give yourself some additional encouragement and light relief by visiting this site: Cabot Financial - How they treat one of their customers.

 

More soon, Vex

Thanks very much. I appreciate that.

this is thenormal cabot speak

smoke and mirrors me thinks

boy are they poor copies

are the ones you have just as bad

have you had an answer on the agreement by caggers yet, i know a lot of mbna agreements are the pitts

until they send a readable copy they have not complied with your cca request and can take a running jump

 

you will get more comments on the cabot letter ime sure

pure fiction

The copies are just as bad! This is what they sent me in reply to my letter telling them that they had sent me an application form and that it did not satisfy my request for a CCA. It even says "Application Form" at the bottom!

Hi all,

I have been dealing with Cabot over a debt they say I owe them from MBNA. I sent them a CCA request which was delivered to them on 29 September 2008. I heard nothing until 13 November 2008 when I received a copy of an application form, together with a letter dated 10 November 2008, purporting to be from MBNA and saying that the debt was assigned to Cabot.

I replied to say that as they had sent me an application form they had not fulflilled my request under the act and that unless they did supply one they were committing an offence by still asking me for payment. I also asked them how whwn the assignment letter was dated 10 November, were they authorised to request me to pay them before this date.

I have today receieved the following reply:

Our response to your letter

I refer to your letters dated 19th September and 8t" December 2008, and our letters dated 1St October, 13t" October, 24th October, 6t" November and 13th November 2008.

You have stated that Cabot has not provided you with a copy of the credit agreement. However please be advised that although the original copy may not be available, MBNA has supplied Cabot with a copy of the original which you signed and satisfies all requirements of both MBNA and Cabot. Under section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 it states "the creditor... shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any)" and stress the words "if any". Cabot has been provided with a copy of the agreement from MBNA and therefore, this satisfies all obligations of both parties.

For your ease of reference please find enclosed a further copy of the credit agreement that you signed and agreed to with the original lender. Please note that on the copy of this agreement, your signature is supported by the statement "This is a Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Sign it only if you want to be legally bound by its terms". You shall also note on the credit agreement that under the heading "Declaration" it states "Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974", Therefore, this constitutes a valid credit agreement, which is regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and under the terms of the agreement.

With regards to the requirements of the agreement regulations 198311553 concerning the form and content of the agreement, these regulations do not deal with this matter, as it is the CCA that deals with this matter as primary legislation. Section 189(4) of the CCA states:

A document embodies a provision if the provision is set out either in the document itself or in another document referred to in it."

Section 61 of the Consumer Credit Act, which deals with the "signing of document" states

"A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless

(a) A document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to the regulations (Consumer Credit (Agreement) Regulations 1983) under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor...

(b) The document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than the implied terms..."

The word "embodies" means that the document need not set out all the terms itself, but may refer to another document setting out the terms under section 189 (4). In this instance on the application form it is clear that the Terms and Conditions are mentioned in the Declaration box and therefore you are incorrect in stating that the agreement cannot be set out in different documents.

As to prescribed terms, this is covered in section 61(a), above, where it mentions, "contains". The terms and conditions have set out all the prescribed terms as required under the Consumer Credit (Agreement) Regulations 1983 and therefore there can be no argument as to the validity of the form and content of the agreement.

With regards to your query relating to the notice of assignment of your debt, please note that the c , ,

November 2008 was a representation of the letter originally sent on 20th September 2001, as stated clearly at the top of the letter.

In conclusion, we are perfectly within our rights to enforce the debt against you as your arguments are clearly unfounded and you have no basis for your dispute or claim for failing to pay the outstanding balance under the credit agreement. Regrettably, if no payment arrangement to settle your outstanding balance is forthcoming within 14 days, we shall have no other option but to escalate your account in our collection process. Therefore, I would recommend you contact us on 0845 0700 116 in order to discuss the options available to you in settling the outstanding balance of £4705.66 on your account. Interest has been accruing on your account, but has yet to be added to the outstanding total.

If you have any other queries in relation to the above account, please do not hesitate to contact me on 0845 026 0463. The Customer Assurance department is open from 9am to 5pm Monday to Friday.

Yours sincerely

Steve Perring

Customer Assurance Adviser

The copy of the "credit agreement" they refer to is the same application form they sent before. I've attached what they sent as pdf files which are hard to read, even as originals, but even the words "Application Form" appear at the bottom of the page)

I am going to reply to the letter but would appreciate some help with the points they have raised regarding the legality of the document as a credit agreement.

Any help you can give would be very much appreciated.

Thanks.

BB

Cabot(MBNA) Appn p 2.pdf

Cabot(MBNA) appn p1.pdf

Thanks for the advice folks. I did look at the 6 years bit and wondered too. I will look into what I have sent them previously and check if it is barred. As you say though, they still have to provide me with the relevant paperwork.

Thanks for that, excellent advice. Much appreciated.

Thanks guys. No contact since that letter. I was considering just waiting to see what they come up with next.

Is there anyone here that could possibly give me some gudance as to how I should reply to the letter from Link I received please?

Thanks.

BB

Hi folks.

Does anyone have any advice they can give me on how to respond to the above please?

Many thanks.

BB

Hi all,

I sent a letter to LINK with pretty much the text provided by 42nd Man above. Today I recived the following reply.

Dear ****

I refer to your notice under the Data Protection Act 1998. Your HSBOS plc Credit Card accound was assigned to Link Financial in June 2005. The resonsibility to manage the information place with the Credit Reference Agencies by HSBOS plc was also passed at the time of purchase. However please be aware as this account defaulted more than 6 years ago it is no longer being reported to the Credit Reference Agencies. Therefore we do not believe we are in breach of our responsibilities inder the Act with regards to your details.

J Pearcey

What do you think of this reply? They have ignored the part about being in default of my request and that the application form they sent was not my CCA.

Any advice would be gratefully received.

Thanks.

Thanks very much folks you have confirmed what I thought. Thanks too 42nd for the info on how to reply, it is very much appreciated.

BB

I'd be very grateful for views on the application form I received from LINK please. Although it does Consumer Credit Agreement at the bottom, there are none of the prescribed terms which I understand are supposed to be in a proper agreement? Grateful for any guidance here please.

Many thanks.

To top it all I got a letter in the post today from Provident trying to get me to take out a loan!!!! That would look very good to a Judge wouldn't it?