Claimant was CRS...not ££££££land ?

To make clear, £££land was the claimant, CRS was the provider of threatograms, they gave up after 5 letters, then 2 threatograms from £££lands solicitors before they issued the court claim.

ps the answer i gave was to this.

Can I ask, did any of the recovery companies (RLPicon/DWF et al) get involved or was this a direct action from the claimant? For the life of me, I cannot see why this store would have followed this action after the case from 2012

Yes it was crs

It's clear they used the court system in the hope they trip you up with cpr and win by default,

out of interest what would of happened if witness statements are not received within the prescribed time?

i could be wrong but i get the feeling they had no intention sending their witness statements and made a decision to quit based on the defence that was submitted, was it that they were never going to be able to prove such a loss for the so called case costs.

Quick update, after all that it went out in a bit of a whimper.

Witness statements sent within the prescribed time but nothing was received, then a notice of discontinuance arrived, thanks again @ericsbrother and for those interested the claimant was £££land

my assumption is that as this is a matter that is stayed by the court then somehting has already been submitted by both parties at the time. Knowing what has gone on before will be very helpful. What iI said basically shows the loss isnt what they are claiming for, this doesnt preclude any other matters so do take advice where it is offered. BF clearly has a different angle so it would be wise to ask, even if it turns out that what happened at the time means it isnt applicable. Better to have the knowledge now rather than in hindsight.

 

 

However, knowing who the claimant is may well allow us to give you a killer defence so please say who it is that is suing your friend. If it isnt the store then whoever it is has no locus standi as per the Oxford case and just stating that will see off the claim in its entirety.

 

 

you have been very reticent to give us any facts or information and so i repeat, do you really want to help this person or not? hand wringing over corpses may get you a sainthood but dont help the living

Just to clear up a couple of things, as i was helping out a third party i had to be mindful of what i posted on an open forum without their permission.

Secondly looking back i made a mistake in not making clear what advise i was looking for, i wasn't looking for someone to give a cast iron defense to copy and paste, what i wanted was advise on cpr and court procedures, sorry i should of made that clear.

However it matters no more because i have told them im unable to help any further, once i know i shall let you know the outcome, thanks for the help this far ericsbrother, cheers

It's completely up to you of course and I'm not particularly interested in locking horns with you on the open forum, however I can tell you that both you and EB have so far managed to miss the obvious weakness in the proceedings and which represent, in my view, your only chance of success.

 

I would suggest that you answer my questions at least for the sake of your friend.

From where im sitting it don't feel that way to me.

Thank you anyway

That is just something we are going to have to disagree about.

thanks for you help, i shall wait for ericsbrother as it is with their help that i managed to get this far and feel for continuity it's the best way forward that i can deal with it, all the best.

Hello, i think that is slightly unfair, let me explain, im doing this for someone who has even less knowledge of the court system and procedures than me and mine is next to nothing, im just trying to help out someone who is less fortunate.

I do have a life of my own and things going on in my life, all i wanted to do was focus on one person trying to help ( thanks @ ericsbrother ) rather than get bogged down with many people chipping in, that for me was the best way in my mind i felt able deal with the minefield of information, if i didn't reply to anyone and they were offended, sorry, also you personally may not find good reason for me to not name the claimant on an open forum but surely you have to respect that i feel i have good reason not to, thank you, p.s no criminal proceedings

the person being sued wil have to go to a hearing, you can speak for them if they ask you to be their lay representative assuming the company dont drop the matter now they see that it is going to be defended and questions will be asked about the veracity of their claim. usually these claims are put in to frighten peopel into paying up rather than as a genuine attempt to recover monies actually owed.

they will ahve to pay the hearing fee first and that isnt a sure thing. Keep an eye on the clock in that regard and if they dont pay it in time invite the court to rubber stamp the discontinuance

Hello, thanks for your reply, received this, court5.pdf

nothing, it is already included in their claim.Usually it states clealry on the N1 form in the box after the amount claimed and before the box for court fees. It is limited to £50 unless unreasonable behaviour can be proven and the benchmark for that is quite high.

have you actually read the claim form or are you translating what you have been told by your friend.

Yes it said legal costs £50,

DFont forget at this point you are outlining what your defence is based around, not writing war and peace so bullet points plenty good enough. You ghet to write the book when it comes to exchanging papers at the time ordered by the court and that is usually a fortnight before the hearing date and you havent got that far yet

Ok thanks, so at the next stage they will have to provide evidence they suffered a loss and we will have to provide evidence as to why they didn't? ie oxford case, will it have to go to a hearing? i am going to have to speak for them if it does.

Is this going through the small claimd procedure or another track please?

 

 

HB

Small claims track, will this mean having to go to a hearing at the court? Thanks

If small claims basically nothing other than the sols fee for the day of the hearing.

Thjis is the entire point I was trying to make about inflated costs that arent allowable.

 

If I sued you for knocking my garden wall down I cant claim the costs of insuring my house for the last 20 years as part of the damages and certainly wont get anything for my conveyancing solicitors work when buying it. If I employed a gardener and he had to do a bit of work then I cant ask for his salary either as he would be employed whter he was shovelling soi near a wall or pruning my trees- no additioanl expense has been undertaken.

They try it on in the hope that you dont know any better and dont object. The courts know this but it is for you to ppint it out, not the judge.

Yes thanks well hopefully i did just that, so should you end up losing the solicitors costs will be added on to the claim amount, that could be how much on top ??

What happens now in terms of procedure ? once the defense form has been submitted to the court what happens next so i can prepare, also on the particulars of the claim it states they claim the amount, interest and costs, im assuming costs refer to solicitor fees, what can they actually claim for under costs, thanks

Thanks for your help ericsbrother,

it took a bit of time to get my head round it all but your advise was of great help,

i took your comments on board,

i did read the oxford case which helped understand much,

i struggled a bit on how you respond in a defense but found a website on how you set out your defence,

i kept it simple like you said,

I did my best for them,

wait and see now,

will let you know the outcome,

Thanks

No that could not be further from the truth, im just trying to make sure i get the defense correct, im not a legal person, i took time to read 16.5 to make sure i did just that, in the particulars of claim they state theft of goods, and 16.5 (5) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), a defendant who fails to deal with an allegation shall be

taken to admit that allegation

What you are saying is just ignore that, don't deal with it?, just put in a defense that covers the claim for what they state as case costs, which as you have already said they can not claim for, your saying this court claim is not about making a decision on whether she is guilty or not of theft, thanks for your replies

No the goods were not recovered, but as they stated theft of goods in the particulars of claim under cpr rule 16.5 you have to deal with allegation in one way or another.

Have we seen the particulars of claim please?

 

HB

I don't have in hand the paperwork it's with the defendant, but it is pretty much what is has on the claim form

1) claim is for £247 representing monies due to claimant for theft of goods totaling £50

2) claimant seeks to recover case costs of £197 making total claim £247

3) despite written demand defendant fail to pay

4) claim interest at 8% etc etc etc

but you already know they cant claim for these and win that claim of defended using the Oxford case as precedent.

Look anyone can claim anything from anyone and ony when the defendant says it is denied will it ever get looked at as to whetehr there is a case to answer.

For may money i would be making it as dificult as possible for teh to win hands down by forcing them to show a breakdown of their claim for losses as most of them arent claimable. as alreadty said int eh Oxford case. peopel dont get paid twice for the same job they are emloyed to do.

Thank you for the replies, yes i have already taken on board what you have said in relation to that, what i want to make sure i do in put it in the right context on the defence form, im mindful of following the correct procedure for the Contents of defence, so for example on the particulars of claim they put theft of goods, so do they admit or deny it ?

16.5.—(1) In his defence, the defendant must state—

(a) which of the allegations in the particulars of claim he denies;

(b) which allegations he is unable to admit or deny, but which he requires the claimant to

prove; and

© which allegations he admits.

(2) Where the defendant denies an allegation—

(a) he must state his reasons for doing so; and

(b) if he intends to put forward a different version of events from that given by the claimant,

he must state his own version.

(3) A defendant who—

(a) fails to deal with an allegation; but

(b) has set out in his defence the nature of his case in relation to the issue to which that

allegation is relevant,

shall be taken to require that allegation to be proved.

1) It's a local retailer so unless you happen to live in the area you won't know them.

2) It's none of the usual suspects

3 ) All cpr obligations were followed in an attempt to settle without court claim, I've seen the correspondence and im satisfied they followed the rules.

Someone advised her to ignore (don't know who) she was 16 at the time, when the claim forms arrived she was advised to defend the claim ( don't know who ) on the fact she was under 18, Judge agreed and it was stayed, now she's over 18 claimants solicitor sends a letter to the court and a different judge makes a new order ( see post 14 )

Told her to expect to lose and cough up the money, have until Friday to submit a defense, has to be worth submitting something and lose than doing nothing and let them win by default,

I've seen a few of these but never filed a defense for anyone, so i want to make sure that i follow court procedures to give her the best chance of winning

They are making a claim under torts to recover compensation for loss and consequential damages, they claim their actions at the time amounted to a wrongful interference with their goods, The value of the claim is an amount that covers the loss as well as an amount that compensates the investigation costs, security costs and administration costs they incurred as a consequence of their actions.

After plenty of bedtime reading i have the answer to question 1 in my 1st post, as i understand no application was was made (Practice Form N244) the court relied on a letter from the claimants solicitor, so no application notice was served

PART 3

THE COURT'S CASE MANAGEMENT POWERS

Court’s power to make order of its own initiative

3.3.—(1) Except where a rule or some other enactment provides otherwise, the court may exercise

its powers on an application or of its own initiative.

(Part 23 sets out the procedure for making an application)

PART 23

GENERAL RULES ABOUT APPLICATIONS FOR COURT ORDERS

Application notice to be filed

23.3.—(1) The general rule is that an applicant must file an application notice.

(2) An applicant may make an application without filing an application notice if—

(a) this is permitted by a rule or practice direction; or

(b) the court dispenses with the requirement for an application notice.

Notice of an application

23.4.—(1) The general rule is that a copy of the application notice must be served on each

respondent.

(2) An application may be made without serving a copy of the application notice if this is

permitted by—

(a) a rule;

(b) a practice direction; or

© a court order.

PRACTICE DIRECTION 23A – APPLICATIONS

Applications without service of application notice

3 An application may be made without serving an application notice only:

(1) where there is exceptional urgency,

(2) where the overriding objective is best furthered by doing so,

(3) by consent of all parties,

(4) with the permission of the court,

(5) where paragraph 2.10 above applies, or

(6) where a court order, rule or practice direction permits.

Solicitor named in post 4.

No need to acknowledge claim, all the procedures were followed at the time of the original claim and the defence submitted was that she was under 18, and it was stayed,

now a year later and she is over 18 the solicitor has written to the court and another judge has made a new order that she must

1) defend it

2) do nothing and it be entered against her by default or

3) apply to get it set aside

I agree it's a system that encourages them to make false claims in the hope that you either just pay up or win by default if you ignore.

The judge has allowed them to essentially reactivate the claim by simply accepting a letter sent by the claimants solicitor to the court, i have no idea what was said in the letter, surely that can not be the correct procedure and it's not very transparent.

The goods stolen were not recovered, the bulk of the claim is for what they call case costs, in the particulars of claim, goods total £50, seek to recover £200 for case costs and they don't offer any more detail on that, then the usual they want interest on top, so it is essentially trying to claim money for what they call case costs

100 % genuine, i have seen both the original order and the new one, the solicitor is freeths

Just over a year ago friend of mine defended civil recovery claim for shoplifting using the defense that she was under 18, it was stayed by the judge at the time, now she is 18 an order from the court has arrived stating that they had received a letter from the claimants solicitor and it has been ordered to either submit a defense with civil procedure rule 16, don't submit and judgment will default or request to set aside.

1) Is that the correct procedure to just send a letter to the court and ask the judge to make the order

2) can i ask to see a copy of said letter?

3) what court form shall i use to mount the defense

Thanks