After a well earned breather from those nice chaps at Snatch West, the silence was broken yesterday morning.

Have now received letter from second set of solicitors.

A copy of the two page letter can be seen at the following photobucket link:

vexlitigant/Shoosmiths - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Any advice is welcome.

Sorry pol76, I concur with Paul. Not sure your message was meant for this thread

Bump

Hi Vex

There you go

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o....templates.html

 

 

Letter J - Full and final settlement for any debt

 

 

Regards

Andy:)

Hi Andy

This is going to sound really ungrateful, (it isn't meant to) however the wording on that template reads as though the sender is on the backfoot and admits to the existence of the debt. You should not (and i don't expect you to ) take this personally, but i'm really not ready to exercise deference in any way to these morons.

Does anyone have any more ideas?

Many Thanks, Vex

Okee doke

Just need to check to see what the legal terminology is for basically saying "i'm offering your client 10% of the alleged debt in full and final settlement, but do not acknowledge any debt". How do I do that?

Thx, Vex

Hi vex thank you for your PM

 

As stated earlier in the thread no signed CCA = none enforcable debt you have a reconstructed agreement so all the info and statements in the world is not going to alter that fact.However this does not stop the possability of it resurfacing at a later date.Until such time you are in a very strong position to negotiate a very favourable conclusion to this matter that is suitable to yourself.

Failure to achieve the above with them will be followed by litigation knowing how they work which in this instance would prove to be fruitless so you are calling the shots at the moment.

 

I trust the above is of help

 

Regards

Andy;)

Andy

In specific reference to your comment "Until such time you are in a very strong position to negotiate a very favourable conclusion to this matter that is suitable to yourself" are you implying that I could seek a negotiated settlement with them? If that is what you are implying, and given that i can see a distinct experience of dealing with Natwest in the way you have provided valued advice here, how would you suggest instigating that ?

Best Regards, Vex

Hi Paul

NW did indeed supply a 'copy' of the CCA. The 'copy' they provided did not have a signature from me on it.

Hi All

I'm not too perturbed about my position in respect of NW, however I do have the time this evening (i've been away with the company for a few nights) and think that its best to have all bases covered. To that end i'll PM PT with a copy of the account papers. I'll scan later and send across. Andy, i'll copy you too - you've stuck with this thread from the outset, and it would be rude and silly to exclude your views.

As always, sincerest of Thanks, Vex

Paul / PT - Thanks

I am not at my home PC at the moment (Making use of some golden 'silent time', without the kids whilst at my parents) I'll look at the numbers and PM you.

Just as a reminder, this is a disputed CCA. CCA supplied by NW in response to my request has no signature on it.

Bump

BTW Monetless

You should be aware that if you do get to negotiaite a reduced figure, then interest will still accrue. So....... if for example, your monthly payment was, say £200, and you get this down to, say

£10 per month, for a period of 6 months, you will then be unpleasantly surprised to see that at the end of the temporary arrangement, your reduced contribution has possible had a very insignificant impact on the overall debt.

Not wanting to deliberatley put a downer on your quest for some economic stability, and that is a totally correct and legitimate decision to make if that is what your circumstances dictate,but that is what got me off on my littlle venture. I paid a token amount for two years, and after that period was up, I discovered that the amount left outstanding had exceeded the overall amount i originally borrowed. Then the fun really started.

All the best, Vex

Hi, all,

 

I need to write to NatWest explaining that i cannot pay off my overdraft yet but need to close my account, i want to offer a small token payment but i dont know who to write to. Can anyone help ?

Thanks

Money-less!

Hi Moneyless

I was / am in a vaguely similar position. Things have trickled along since contacting them in October (they asked me to 'Substantially Increase the size of my repayments', and i couldn't). Anyway, the address that i have been using is:

Credit Management Services

Kendal Court

Ironmasters Way

Telford

TF3 4DT

Now, whichever address you use, the golden rule is:

1/ Do NOT, EVER phone them. They are generally very well trained in getting callers to commit to 'arrangments' that do not suit the debtor

2/ Send your letters, as a MINIMUM with a certificate of postage (free, but you will have to Q at a PO), or recorded (70p i think)

3/ Choose, NOW, NOT to sign your letters. Use a digitral signature, and stick with this drill from here on in.

If you do not get much satisfaction, or they give you short shrift, come back to the forum, and more help will come.

Good Luck, Vex

Hi All

Received the following from Mssrs Green & Co today.

Any advice???

Thanks, Vex

Image of Green & Co Letter on Behalf of Snatch West - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Appreciated

That link is really quite incredible.

Thanks, Vex

This is why im wondering if it is enforcable, who to say the page before hasnt been made up etc, Was yours signed on a different page?

Negative. Only signature present was that on the Application. The T's & C's that have been provided in response to request for CCA are copies, and they are dated 2 years after the Application.

All i can imagine, is that for separate T's & C's to come anywhere near providing the basis of a CCA, then each side fo each page would have to be iniitaled and dated, by the cardholder, AFTER the Application has been accepted.

But i am a 'layperson' in this field, so i trust my words are supportive.

My situation appears to be similar, but i am not having sleepless nights thru it.

Thanks, Vex

Dear Mummy of 5

Incredulous at the wording of the response from Aktiv (your blog dated 6th March 21:43)

I would love to receive such a letter.

My response would probably go….

Dear Sir / Madam

What a pleasure it is to hear back from you, and may I add that in this era of impersonalised administrations and bureaucracies, and slack / casual use of the Queens English, I draw strength from you correspondence.

First, let me extend an emphatic thank you for what was no doubt your best endeavours’ in seeking to retrieve “copies of the original documents”. Never mind what I imagine was the curt response you received from the bank - as I’m sure we will each have fun exchanging many more letters in our angst to get to the bottom of this from here on in.

I must say that I almost wet myself laughing when I read the first few words that start the third paragraph of the letter to which I refer. Of course i’m not alluding to any kind of laxative effect that those bounders at the bank would prefer us to perform when they correspond. Their wrath has often had me in tears.

Let me explain. Like your organisation, I too, am a member of an association (two I believe), and to avoid any ambiguities, I fetched my copy of the New Oxford Thesaurus for clarification. An association is a consortium, coalition, union, league, guild, syndicate (fnar fnar – I do hope they don’t mean that type of syndicate coming from Sicily) federation, group, society and even Club!

I don’t profess to be an esteemed member of the CSA, although one association to which I do have an affiliation (by way of monthly subscription) is to The Fortean Times. At the time of writing, one of their headlines reads “Was Moses high on psychedelic drugs”, whilst another reads “Binary ‘Deathstar’ has earth in its sights”, however my absolute favourite has to be the story under the news story “New threat to our way of life: giant pythons”

It really does kill me to imaging how many cranks there are out there, and indeed how many more have access to keyboards, but we do have to recognise the skills of those journalists, authors and clerks. I bet you and I could compare notes on acquaintances with similar said access to computing machinery.

Before I lose your attention and begin to suck away your will to live (beware those giant pythons!!) you may wonder why I am banging on about associations, and it is really quite simple. Associations don’t make the law!!

How do I know this? Quite simply because, very recently, using some fancy fonts on this computer and my printer, I made a letter head and formed an association (called “I’m off on my plasma energy conduit to planet Zog”), and went so far as to drafting some guidelines. Those guidelines give (gave) me the power to ignore all forms of artificial life, artificial intelligence and artificial authority.

Whilst speaking with my GP about those ‘Guidelines’ he garbled (as they do) some nonsense about ‘sectioning’. Now, he (my GP) is probably a bit of a loon, but he did a good job to convince me that my ‘guidelines’, based on the fact that I had no authority, were not worth the paper they were written on.

I therefore do hope that my position is clear. As long as your association maintains its guidelines, then I will stick to mine, however, in reality, none have legitimate authority, and we really ought to try and stick to real life.

Do feel free to let me know which trip you are on, and whether you anticipate joining up for a glass of Chartreuse on Planet Zog

Ciao! "

Hi All

I have typed up the following, and would appreciate any comments as to my choice of words / layout

Thanks, Vex

Dear XXXX

With reference to my previous letter dated XXXX, and in turn, to your letter dated XXXX and received on XXXX.

I wish to draw your attention to your company’s lack of compliance with my legal request.

In my letter dated XXXX, I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 s77 – s79

In response to my request for a copy of this ‘agreement’, you have sent me a single page which appears to be a copy of the credit application form. An application for credit does not constitute a Consumer Credit Agreement.

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement containing all of the prescribed terms all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent statutory instruments.

As you may not be aware, failure to comply with this request within 12 working days renders the debt UNENFORCEABLE in law. Furthermore, if this non-compliance continues for a further month, then a summary criminal offence is commited

I will remind you that without a true copy of the CCA, this debt is unenforceable.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully

Hi Gibbyni

pt2537 has provided me with some very welcome words, in a similar situation, and in anticipation of them same words helping you, i'll copy pt's note here:

"the T&Cs ......... are largely irrelevant as the prescribed terms cannot be within a separate document but must be "within the four corners of the agreement" (Tuckey LJ in Wilson and Hurstanger)

even if they provide a set of Terms and Conditions ...... the signed application MUST show a link between the application and the T&Cs for them to be considered part of the agreement"

Hope that helps you

Vex

As i write, I've just started to sip from a glass of cold beer. My first of the week.

I think i'm a pretty grateful guy. I like to show my appreciation, however, i am conscious of throwing thanks around like i do it without thinking.

That response though, looks like it's the final word. My beer tastes fantastic, and i'm looking forward to a great weekend.

So THANK YOU VEY MUCH INDEED for that little gem of info!!!

Yes - The T's & C's that they sent, and which i uploaded to P'Bucket are dated October 2006. The application form is dated end of 2004.

So the T's & C's that they sent back as part of my CCA request are not part of the agreement that i signed up to, and nor IMHO do they comply with my request for a CCA

Not sure what you mean

All that i have to post at this stage is in the photobucket link in my furst thread.

The closest thing to 'agreement' is the copy of the application that they sent, and that is in the photobucket link

Thanks, Vex

Hello

I have a somewhat similar, but sepearate thread running in these forums regarding an ongoing 'query', however i want to say that i am by no means an expert, and still consider the phrase "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

So.... again i am seeking some advice on the following situation. I have read around the various threads, and have seen enough to give me encouragement.

I sent M&S (Marks & Spencers) a request for a copy of CCA in respect of my C Card (& More Credit Card)

I received the following swift response.....

"Thank You for your letter

I enclose a copy of the original application form and the relevant terms and conditons.

I have signed a copy of your current monthly statement, which outlines the outstanding balance. The agreement is now broken and the full balance is due. (Not sure how it's become broken by asking for a copy of the CCA!)

Your account requires an immediate payment of xxxx.xx. We accept debit card payments by telephone. Until we receive payment, further recovery action will continue which could mean that your account is passed to an outside collection agent.

We have complied with our legal duties under section 77 and 78 of the Consumer Credit Act and I trust that matters have now been resolved

Your Sincerely"

This letter was accompanied by a copy of my credit card application, and 6 pages of T&C's. Those pages can be seen in the following link to photobucket:

vexlitigant/and LESS - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

NOTE: The 'agreement' to which this letter refers is a voluntary agreement between M&S and I, (eventually) to repay the balance with a fixed monthly sum. This started after i was made redundant some time ago. I have never failed to pay this on time, and indeed, as their reply is so swift, there has not been enough time between the last payment and the next one in order for me to have broken our arrangement that way.

I think i can respond with a pretty standard "Your response does not contain the prescribed terms, as the application form is not a CCA. Blah Blah blah" but people better informed may tell me different. It may be that i do nothing, and wait for the 12 days + 1 month to expire, or for them to take this to the next level, by unlawfully pursuing collection without providing what i have reasonably and politely requested.

Grateful for any advice

Thanks,

Vex

Great.

I'm 'happy' with the status of the situation as it sits right now. Obviously would prefer not to have any of this nonsense, but I must say that i do enjoy pushing back.

I am sad enough to admit that participating here, as well as the great 'spectator sport' of reading other successes in the other threads in this forum, especially concerning Robinson (lost their) Way, appears to be consuming much of my free time.

Thanks for that.

Yes, we'll sit tight on both fronts.

Just one question though - so as to be ultra water tight............

I, personally, have never issued NatWest with a CCA request for the 'Overdraft'. Wife issued one to them for 'Overdraft' in her name, and of course I have issued one for the 'Loan'

To be clear - NW started out with their letters to me referring to the 'Loan', then their letters were in reference to both the loan and overdraft.

Just wishing to cover the bases, in case, in their angst to exploit a gap or loophole they seek to break this one out and hit me quickly with a sneaky one.

Thanks, Vex

Hello All

Two responses received over last few days........

The first was to my wife, from 'Intrum Justitia' (gosh the latin name is soooooooooo intimidating - not) and was in response to the letter we sent off to Mitchell Bros (see Andyorch's thread 10th Feb 14:38)

"Dear Ms xxxxxx

Thank you for your recent comms

Unfortunately we are unable to provide you with the information that you have requested as we do not hold the credit agreement. As i am unable to supply this information your postal order for £1.00 is enclosed.

However, the information is available from our clients if you make a direct request to them

In light of this we have closed the file and returned the matter to our client for clarification.

I would like to thank you for bringing this matter to my attention"

As no correspondence has ever been received by my wife from Natwest, we will wait for Natwest to make a move here, if any. In other words, as we have nothing to respond to - no direct demands for repayment, we will sit tight.

Second response was from Natwest. This was a reply to my 2nd written complaint regarding their attempts to collect on 'debt' whilst the account is in dispute...

"Dear Mr xxxxxx

I write regarding the above stated accounts and in response to your letter dated xx Feb 2008

Your complaint has been referred to me............................

I acknowledge that you .................................................

etc etc etc etc blah blah blah

I confirm that you may treat this letter, in conjunction with my colleagues letter dated xx feb 2008 as the banks "Final Response". Should you wish to take matters forward for investigation, then this letter together with its enclosures should be presented to the office of the Financial Ombudsman Service within six months of its issue.

So, where to now. FOS ?. Sit tight and wait for their bigger guns to fire?

Thanks, Vex