Sorry link above missed out: https://www.stepchange.org/debt-info/debt-collection/high-court-enforcement-officers.aspx

OK actually doing a search on HCEO's and not the keywords I was using has brought up some very good explanations of the differences. I did not realise this. One great link is here:

Particularly useful sentence about businesses, where these guys can break in and seize goods even on the first visit.

Questions:

1. Can I stop the bailiff process at any time and just hand collecting to the HCEO's or do I have to let the bailiffs now run their course?

2. Can HCEO's go to business owner/director properties and seize goods there if they struggle with the main business address?

I was told to use these by the courts, I was trying to get advice here but I was getting no response.

They have a scheme here that use telephone people whch has a good rate of success, but i think they're just getting the run-around like everyone else on this case.

So what powers do HCEO's have that the bailiffs don't and why would I use them over the bailiff's process?

They seem to be hellishly more expensive, like £1000 v £100.

When the amount you are collecting is £2500, £ 1000 is a lot of money to also invest when you never get any kind of g'tee it will work.

Aha Thank-you, so I believe these would be what are called sherrifs, is that right?

At the moment the bailiff support team is calling for the agreed payment but they are not responding and past the date of the first payment. This way it's going to be years before we get anywhere.

Bailiffs are yet to go in, however they have told me already that they don;t think they will get any, knowing their territory etc. About a 30% chance of getting paid with them.

This is why I am thinking we cancel the agreement, get the bailiffs in, let them fail 3 times and then I wanted to work out other options now.

Are these hceo's?

Hi there, could you tell me what an HCEO is?

Actually yes iot is but I was getting no responses on that any more. I thought maybe because the case is now requiring different expertise?

I would like to keep this thread if possible, as I think the other thread is dead.

Hi There

So I won a judgement in the small claims court almost a year ago. There was an elongated appeal process that to date left me stumped. However the case is now in the hands of the bailiffs. This is a business to business case, both the claimant and defendant are LTD companies.

Currently the bailiffs are trying to collect over 3 months using a new telephone service which has a higher rate of collection, and i'm happy to try that. However the date of the first payment has already been missed and they cannot get hold of the main contact to get the payment over the phone. They call every day, but of course office staff are probably clued up on this.

This company is still running, it is banging on about how well it's doing on social media, tweeting about all the training their staff are going on etc etc. However for me the £2500 they owe me, seems to be a matter of life and death to them.

I have been warned that bailiffs in this case are not usually successful, so I am left aghast at having gone through all of this and nothing will potentially happen.

Does anyone have any ideas or any advice or services that I can use that are stronger and guarantee a bit more success. Ideally in a more timely manner?

Any help is much appreciated.

Hi there

So I finally got a reply from the Judge on the issue of these extra costs, his response is:

‘these kind of matters cannot be dealt with by emailed correspondence. If Mr XXX seeks his costs he must make an on notice application with supporting evidence and payment of the appropriate fee. The application will have to be served on his opponent and will be dealt with by judicial process in due course. This will undoubtedly involve a direction that the Defendant responds to the application and maybe listed for hearing if not dealt with on papers.’

I attach a form N244 for completion. The fee is £100 and on receipt will be referred to a judge to consider.

So, it seems that, whilst it took a long time to get to this, the judge has indeed stated that you can't just write a letter to him. It has to be done with Form N244.

I would really appreciate someone just getting back to me and helping with closing this down for me. This costs thing was advised on this post by you guys so I am a little confused by it now and whether carrying on is worth bothering with?

Also how do I now move to collect?

So I have finally got a response back from the judge, however the response simply states in 1 line that the date has now passed where the appellant was given to provide something so the appeal is over.

4 times I have sent in an application under CPR 27.14(2), and including 27.14(2)(g) , to have consideration of my costs to be paid and I have still not got any kind of response what-so-ever on this question.

Some questions I need some help with:

1. Should I move to collection on the original award and then continue to push for the extra costs to be claimed and then collect those if I get them.

2. Should I wait for the judge to actually respond to the CPR 27.14(2), and including 27.14(2)(g) letter I wrote and then only collect when this is finalised?

3. How do I get the judge to respond to me. It seems there's a 3 month turn around if i'm lucky and then they don't even respond to the question I ask. Is there another way I can do this? Complain maybe?

Any help is gratefully received.

We are so close to getting this done now.

Thought I would update the thread.

I have basically been waiting on a decision on this letter about costs for months now. The appeal was refused on 3 /4 counts but with a confusion about the date in June given to come back on point 4, which has now passed but without any letter or comment.

I call up every 2 weeks and the file is always still with the judge, so at this stage I have nothing that says "you won, appeal refused...go ahead and collect" with a " your costs have been awarded or not". I have in effect no closure at all.

I have tried every angle on getting this moved on, escalation process (doesn't exist), complaint (Same person as I am dealing with now). Can I talk to the judge (No!!). There seems nothing I can do.

Is this normal? The appeal was refused, I wrote in about getting further costs as advised on here, and now I have been waiting since June to get any kind of answer at all. I can't collect because the case is not yet closed, I can't collect until I know I have the extra costs awarded or not.

How can i get closure and move to collections?

Thank-you for that

So I have sent in a letter today outlining these points and also asking humbly for clarification on the missing transcript and June dates.

I also updated my costs to include interest lost and also the extra time it has taken to read an enormous transcript.

I will get back here when I know more.

Hi There

TY for the reply. I agree with the 7 day thing, I understand that is the final part of the process and also how unlikely it should be to get that accepted, so that doesn't worry.

The most confusing thing is that the whole transcript has been sent in to the judge. He asked for the hearing and judgement and that has been sent in. This was in fact what all the delays were originally about. So I am confused as to why the judge is asking for more transcript and then giving them until 09/06 to provide it? The judgement was the only place where the award amount was discussed.

Ground 4 was them stating that the amount of the award was not correct. So they have somehow got original invoices from my supplier for what they believe is my 2 machines and they are using this to state that the award should be a lot lower. What they do not realise is that i'm not so sure that these are the invoices anyway and the pricing I got was also very low because I got a special deal due to other business I did with the supplier. Also does it not count that they have clearly been underhanded in obtaining these invoices from my supplier when they are effectively private between me and my supplier?

I am happy to spend whatever I need to get the highest level of collection service I can. However do I get this back from the other side?

I have had the judges decision back and it is not clear cut. Here's the actual letter from the Judge.

My questions are:

1. The only place we talked about the amount of the award was in the judgement part of the hearing.

It does not make any sense that the judge is asking for more transcript because the was sent both parts.

2. Can I go for collection of the money now or do I have to wait 2 more months?

3. Surely if the appeal has failed, why is the Judge saying part of it can still be presented further? Seems really unfair.

Any help is appreciated as usual. At least we are making progress now!!!

Appeal_Decisioon.pdf

Something we have just found out is that they have now produced 2 of my original invoices from where I purchased the printers from. I think this is what they are using to try and get the pricing down, because I got a good deal on them, actually because I buy a lot of stuff from them. Question here is that the supplier has given them invoices that are nothing to do with them.

I also have a witness statement from this supplier who said they were deceived by the appellant into getting information about me but they later wrote a statement to put the record straight on how info was being twisted to reach a pricing for the printers. They basically want me to be paid based on refurbished prices.

It's all really weird.

Well, at the end of the day they have gotten their knickers in a twist here because in their appeal, they are mixing up the 2 printers. So printer 1 had no glass, I never said it had and by their own appeal, they are kind of relinquishing this one.

Printer 2 had glass in it, i also brought it back via another courier, which is what their "intervening" point is about. However you said and the judge concurred at the original hearing that this made no difference to the claim as it happened after the issue occurred. As I had a witness and proof in the way of photos, and the made a point about the fact their terms did not cover this anyway, how can they use this without discrediting me, my proof and my witnesses.

So the glass is only in this one printer.

To be honest I have been told by a partner her, that this appeal looks like they are just trying to get the cost down, rather than appealing against a decision. They will have to pay the costs anyway as the 3rd item in the claim that was just another item for £50 I also claimed for they did not defend. I cannot see how any of this is applicable to the first printer, and the 2nd printer WRT the glass, the intervening event and anything else has been considered by the judge already.

My concern is that the judge was simply wrong about this, but my research and you guys say otherwise.

Yes, basically 3 items. One was lost and they did not contend that, only came back to me on that during the hearing!!

Then I sent a 3D printer which was damaged in transit. I have witness statements to prove the damage was made. The 2nd printer was identical but it just had an extra glass plate in it. This printer was also damaged.

That's fine, any help is appreciated. Just to bring you up to speed on the glass thing. There was a separate glass piece in the 2nd item (first item had no glass). This glass was broken, however it was neither part of the 3D printer per se...IE it was a bespoke add on I bought separately and the "printer" includes only a plastic version when new. It has never been claimed for and I have only ever asked for the 3D printer to be paid for. Glass is "restricted", not "prohibited", so I take the risk on it... I took the risk and it broke, I did send images of it because I thought that proved how badly handled the parcel was, however I have never claimed for the glass item at any time.

You, me, the Judge have all basically taken this stance on the original hearing and it was pretty much poo-poo'd as an argument by the original Judge. I am confused why the defendant is basically saying the same thing yet again, with no new evidence. They cannot seem to stop banging on about the glass!!!

I was told that the transcript is available in electronic form, I sent in an ex107 1.5 weeks ago, however the guy who handles these at the court is away until next Thursday. No-one else can deal with it.

The transcript is about 2 inches thick, i'm not kidding, it was nearly 5 hours worth in the end. I will wait for the electronic version and I am happy to send you that. I simply do not have enough time to scan in about 400 pages right now though.

I will get a response sent in and will copy the other side over the weekend.

Hi

here's the statement

My questions are now:

1. Should I write a response into the court and do I have to send this response to everyone?

2. Is this the only bundle they will have or can I expect something else from them. The deadline is today at 4pm (2.5 hours away).

3. Will it be appreciated if I point out places in the transcription where I am right etc etc?

4. Should I press for my fees once again

5. Should their statement really be pointing out specific details in the transcript etc and then questioning them. I mean if I were appealing, I would be referencing the transcript and stating what the issue was with it. They have not done any of that work at all. I am trying to assess the quality of their bundle here.

6. Can I ask for interest and any more costs?

Any help appreciated a always...nearly there!!!

Appellant_Appeal_Statement.pdf

Hi there

So, an update!

The appellants never got back to me, so as far as they're concerned I have not been sent anything at all.

I received a package form the courts today however which was a letter from the Judge just stating the process and how he understands my frustration but the process of the transcript is essential etc etc. It was quite nice to finally get something back.

Also the transcript, but in paper format (not electronic). Some emails etc from the appellant to the judge largely about why they have been late all the time with deadlines.

The bundle, or at least what I think is the bundle. It is 1 sheet of A4 with "Statement of case" with about 10 sheets of evidence that is from the original case largely. I think they have "new" terms and they have sent these in.

I don't know if this will be of any use now, i'm struggling to pick the case back up again, let alone you guys, however you can safely assume that there is nothing new in this, they are definitely trying to get a 2nd bite of the cherry. I will get that uploaded in the next post.

In the statement it also calls me a liar, quite literally. However they have actually gotten confused over the 2 items in questions. Probably down to sending their low level lakky to the original hearing and now wanting a 2nd bite of the cherry!!!

So, with the above in mind, I will ask questions in the next post

OK, that's all been done. I asked in an email sent to the 3 partners of the appellants company and I have just sent a copy of that to their address, DHL next business day signed for. I asked for anything relevant or being used and the bundle and transcript in an effort to help move things on.

So letter has gone in. I outlined the new points, made my case for "injustice" due to the time and litigation methods of the appellant and also put forward the recommendations WRT paying the funds in and costs etc. I am finding it increasingly hard to write these letters with 150% respect for the Judge but if he wants to administer justice based upon the side of bed he got out of that day and the fact some people may be a little more blunt than others then what can you do. It seems we are all already in slight disbelief at how this is going anyway, I have no faith at all that this will not go to Appeal to be honest. I smell something wrong with the whole thing and i'm not usually wrong about that.

I guess we'll see.

Quick question:

So right now I still do not have the appellants bundle. Do I ask for a copy of that or do I just leave it be and wait? I guess it would be nice to have it and I was wondering whether I should be making my comments on it

Just a quick comment. Is this at risk of cheesing the judge off? I mean he must have read my previous letters which have all been along the same lines. Is this something that I really need to do just to fill the process from my side or could IU run the risk of peeving the judge off? I mean they are supposed to administer justice aren't they, they should not take anything personally right?

Hi there

TY for the reply, yes it is a mess and this whole process from the original judgement has done nothing but kill my belief in our legal system. I m sat here after nearly 5 months since the hearing and am still out of pocket. To me something feels grossly wrong here as everyone I have spoken to has said that this amount of delay is exceptional, unyet I sit here, powerless to do a single thing while the other side continues to behave incorrectly, with apparently absolutely no punishment at all. I think I need to say this in the next letter I send to the judge. It is pretty abysmal.

Transcript company is Ubiqus, they either answer in 2 seconds or not at all. I have been holding for 25 mins and still on the phone now waiting!

Hi there

OK, so up until today, it has simply been about the appellant getting extensions. Apparently emails have been going back and forth from the judge to the appellant about getting the transcript. The reason they told the Judge that they have had trouble calling in to get payment into the transcript company, however I have never had an issue contacting them also sent in proof that they had not attempted to call or email (I called and confirmed this with the transcript company) but it did not seem to matter.

To be honest anything I have sent in, done or said to this point has not had any consideration according to the orders of judgement that come out.

So...

Today we have a little more news and a bit more advice would be welcomed:

News is that they have another extension to the 23rd March, the reason given on the order is that the "judgement" part of the transcript is missing. I called in to the court staff and they said they do not know the reason for that.

They also sent in their bundle, however I have not received a copy and its a week since the last deadline.

At this point I do not know what to do about the bundle, is it best leaving it or do I need to get it? I read that I can send in a Form N244 and the costs of that can be reimbursed on this kind of thing by the appellant.

The advice given on here has always made it clear things have to be done quickly so, near the end of this and it is frustrating to have all the delays.

Doesn't matter I will sit tight and try to get this closed off.

V. frustrating how the courts work.