As in the title.

Hopefully this time someone will provide me with specific answer without flaffing about...

Just thought

 

can i request that the next hearing is heard by another judge? i hate to think how that hearing will go if the judge is in a stressed and harried conditon again.

 

thanks

The next hearing will anyway be heard by another judge so there's no need to ask for such a change.

I am really sorry to write this but I can almost feel this judge's perception. He's being a bit cynical, a bit straightforward but I will only blame the system - which allows the public to assume any layman will be given special treatment. Nope. Represent yourself? Make sure you know what to say or do in court otherwise you loose.

Thank you so much Ms Smith for taking the time to respond.

 

the problem has always been affordability of a solicitor and pro bono's are near extinct. i am still looking however for a pro bono - in so many cases you have to be referred by an agency and you income needs to be nil or near enough. i am even swallowing my pride and considering borrowing some money from a friend but it is if they have the money in the first place to loan to me. i am on half pay at the moment which doesnt even cover my mortgage and getting more into debt!

 

anyhow i take it that the decison could still be reversed(?)

is it the case that i could possibly get a solicitor to do a single letter to the court to consider reversal - and in this way reduce the cost? or has the solicitor got to take on the whole case?

 

do you know what the judge meant about a new application?

 

thank you so much

lindyhop, what are you claiming for the time being before ET?

My point was to take on a rep (can actually even be a friend or a family member) for the whole of duration of the process. It all has got to do with the judges' perception thingy - can't really do much about it but the fact is that when they see someone claiming DD and enrolling a rep to defend their case, they feel more compassionate towards such claimants.

When you submitted application for DD claim, what incident(s) exactly you referred to, let's clarify.

Although I can admit to feeling how Ms Smith suggests, I always remain calm.

 

Ms Smith - yes, basically, two fingers to them and prove it, but in a calm way! IF we win, I'll have something to say to them alright, in such a calm way that they will wonder if they have actually been insulted or not! But, we gotta win first!

Yep, let's concentrate on the case.

I see you have a hell of a case - in terms of preparation for it - and so to defend it during CMD.

I don't agree that CMDs are not for defending your claim.

CMD, as the name suggests, specifies how the route of the claim will go so if you don't give a damn at CMD, why the judge should? For example, on application from the other side, CMD can strike out any respondents, without even going into PHR.

Again, I would sit down, draft and apply for permission to re-submit the claim again, but this time referring to all the mischief they have thrown at your friend. It all has to be a concise picture of your friend's case and what they had done to him.

It might help to bulletpoint their forms of harassment on a separate piece of paper and then transfer everything into logical legal framework.

As for unfair dismissal case law, search for fabricated statements against a dismissed employee (I'm sure I read about at least one such a story in media, not through a typical case law summary, but I bet there are some existing out there) and where the employer behaves in such a way to get rid of employee covered under DDA because they don't want to pay him sick leave any longer.

The judge(s) will need to see your determination to prove your case set out in the claim. And they will make a decision based upon your determination and confidence that after his work colleagues will give evidence, your claim will prove correct.

You need to make a list of who you will bring as witnesses because these people already agreed to testify (but not including actual respondents as they are witnesses anyway; perhaps the manager of the blocks of flat can serve as a witness to confirm the claimant got on well with her - so that you could draw interference before tribunal that your friend would have no reason or interest to break their positive relations).

You also need to make an evaluation how many days the hearing will last based upon above cross-examinations.

So you can see there is a lot of work involved. I see this may be daunting or time consuming if you work yourself, but not impossible.

It really appears to me that by admitting that "the procedure wasn't followed", their lawyers ARE trying to frame your friend even further - into something that never took place but they will want to argue that should the procedure was followed, the outcome would have been the same. Which is only to wear your friend down emotionally, so push push push with these claims of harassment through fabricated allegations!!

When the manager of the block of flats complained, what happened next? How the complaint was resolved?

Is this clinical depression connected with your friend's former place of work? I might have missed that info but would like to clarify it...

It sounds to me as though the receptionist was trying to be helpful.

 

No, she wasn't. It was pure rant on her side.

I wrote (and you quoted that yourself), "quite in a patronising manner". You have missed that bit.

Only obvious wind up merchants. People seeking genuine help get all the patience in the world.

 

You're so smart, you go sort it all out yourself. I am sure you will be delighted to know you're on my ignore list.

 

Leaving your quote so those who come after can see

a) you are being patronising

b) you are blaming people for not understanding a case you refuse to give the details of

c) the suggestion that the case is too complicated for our poor ickle brains to cope with. Clearly you understood all the law perfectly and that is why you won.. oh..wait...

d) casual attitude to mental illnesses - how very 1980s.

 

I'm sorry you have had your day of excitment in court and it was not enough for you. But truly I suggest you attention seek elsewhere. I don't care if you think I am a fighter or not. I do care about the kind people here who give of their knowledge and time freely to help others.

 

Good luck finding peace with yourself.

I quoted your response only, therefore was replying to you specifically, haven't you noticed?

How do I call such people like you... saboteurs!

But, nevertheless, you are being excused - while being mad you don't realise your own flaws so I don't dare to expect you will understand others (I refer to the ET process, in overall, not myself).

Looking back over this thread I agree with ms_smith we are wasting our time with you aren't we?

 

You may be barking up the wrong tree darling. And if so, regrettably it's your time you are wasting as well as ours.

You reminded me of that receptionist in the county court where I recently went so as to only observe someone else's hearing.

I expressed such a wish but instead of referring me to a case supervisor, she started her litany, quite in a patronising manner, as to what happens if one thinks about bringing a claim to CC. I did my best and listened to her politely while refraining from laughing (as I knew these things already) but wasn't she missing the point of my request? A simple request requires simple response - simple as. At some point I swear she was ready to say "No, you cannot observe ay hearing! Who you think you are!" but I noticed two being listed for that day just next to her on the nearby wall so continued and eventually succeeded in my mission !

She should have left her impressions to herself but she made a stupid cow of herself instead. In front of me.

In the EAT she can only appeal on a point of law i.e. how the legislation has been interpreted.

 

I would suggest with all the havering about random bias that there is no point of law on which to appeal, therefore she cannot go down this route. Of course no doubt she will back in a moment to argue that is not the case and there is a point of law. Anything to prove she is correct! So your guess is as good as mine.

 

If there is no incorrect interpretation of the law, which given we are wittering on about support staff not the judge, seems likely, the appropriate process is the complaints process

 

http://hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex343-eng.pdf

 

Once that process is exhausted she will need her MP to raise it with the omudsman on her behalf, if they are willing and believe there is a case to be heard. Details of that are also in the leaflet I linked to.

Lol! That's what bunnies like me call it a fighter's spirit.

Look, the case is complicated, that's for sure. And not a typical one for EAT to hear it but that's how the cookies crumble - every case in court will be different, every law student will tell you.

Maybe there wasn't a case like this before because there were no such circumstances happening at the same time together before? Therefore, it would constitute a precedent.

If that's not enough, there is likely to be another (!) precedent in the case - in terms of another possible bias as to which judge or member should or shouldn't sit in the panel (Court of Appeal has already widely expressed their position in this regard).

It worries me that some of you know only the general bits of the case but rush to full unreserved judgement. Do you judge people in this way all the time or is it a temporary disorder?

Thank you guys, my internet went off at tea time, just back now. I really do appreciate the pointers. I'm going to settle down and have a read today, then make some notes, and approach Weds morning in a cool and calm manner. Just got the telephone numbers and codes comes through. This is a new thing to me, a telephone conference, but at least I can do it with a cuppa on the side.

 

I'm enjoying this, its a good learning curve, and the best thing is the person relying on me doesn't have any high expectations whatsoever. So, if nothing else, we might be able to help someone else on here with our experience of the ordinary person having a go at an ET with no other skills than being able to read! .

 

sincere cheers to you, you are all top guys and gals.

Hiya,

I think I would seek to amend the claim as to that myriad of lies - to put it blantly, that it is a bloody fabrication of allegations to further harass your friend. It has to be all white and black in court papers.

If your friend says he didn't do any of these things, then why should anyone turn to areas of employer's reasonability in conducting the grievance process?

The more you allow the other side lawyers to shriek (love your description!) about this Polkey, the more you allow them to convince judges that there was something your friend is simply not confessing to.

Allegations have been fabricated and there is not a single line of your friend's signature on any minutes that would usually follow in such circumstances. End of.

lindyhop, I am sorry to read about what have happened to you but I would seriously advise asking someone to represent you. Have you tried enquiring with pro bono solicitors?

Judges are ready to be sympathetic to those developing depression as a result of work issues but they need to get to the point of confidence of such findings in the first place.

If you take a representative now, you can ask the judge to revise his decisions based upon your earlier lack of actions or their delay.

From what I read from all sorts of judgements, judges tend to look strangely at those who claim DD but still represent themselves in court. It just doesn't straightforwardly click to judges that there may be a genuine case.

High court applications etc;? No, please don't do that to yourself.

So it is to be put before High Court, isn't it?

What specifically were these illegal actions?

If they do or say things they weren't authorised to do or say.

Hi ms_smith,

 

it isn't at all clear what you are talking about I'm afraid.

 

Perhaps you should concentrate on success in the EAT appeal process for now - focus on the outcome you are seeking.

 

You may be very angry after a decision went against you. I believe most of them do go against the claimant if they go to a full hearing (stats anyone? I think I heard someone on Radio 4 say it was 9 out of 10 claims fail in the hearing - I could be hopelessly wrong with that ratio though).

 

What I am saying is that you are not the only one, there are loads of claimants that may well feel as strongly as you do - and the ET courts have an appeal process set up for that very thing.

 

Take a liitle time to reflect on things.

 

If you feel you still have a strong case - don't get mad, get even.

 

If you know in your heart that you haven't a strong case - well, you gave it your best shot, dust yourself down, walk away, enjoy your life.

 

High court applications etc;? No, please don't do that to yourself.

Guys, guys, guys!

I appreciate all your out-of place advice (because it will help others, not us, yet thanks again) but for god's sake, you are wasting your own time trying to teach an old dog new tricks.

Just out of curiosity, how many claims out of those 9 in 10 were pursued by unrepresented claimants?

If you were yourself engaged in the process as unrepresented claimants, do you recall all those informal chats with court clerks? Well, if I were these clerks, I would be very careful what to say to any party before any hearing. They may have good intentions, but they may as well accidentally throw a party into a legal track of prejudice towards the process. After all, it is them who are the middle point between you and the judges.

Sure, but what did they actually do, or not do? How have their actions disadvantaged you? Were their actions fundamentally unreasonable? Is the problem with the judge or the court staff? These are the kinds of things you would need to establish. If a decision was made because they found someone unlikeable and allowed this to cloud their judgement, then this may be unfair, but its very difficult to prove, you'd have to demonstrate either that evidence was ignored or deliberately misinterpreted.

Right, in short it started off with the court staff but the implications of her (illegal - we know only today) actions were spread along further process, namely had direct effect on particular stages of the process.

altobelli, I call it a dereliction of duty with serious, long term implications for the process but you don't learn about it until the process is completely over.

The staff should know what they are doing, they work for that system on a daily basis and were informed about their expected code of practice when they started.

I bet system offered to the public works better anywhere else than in Yorkshire region.

You still haven't said what they actually *did* so it's going to be difficult to advise on the basis of a bit of a vague rant?

 

2 lawyesr are not all lawyers, but if 2 disageed with *you* (not sure if that is what you are saying) then maybe they had a point?

 

The process can be flawed but if the outcome would have been the same had the process been perfect, you have limited redress.

Yes, I realize you would prefer to know exactly what went wrong to form an opinion.

But for the time being, sorry, I have to research for information which courts deal with claims arising from ETservice' mishandling the case.

It's not the case of lawyers disagreeing with me. It's just one having been too lazy or scared (?) to take on a straightfoward case with a merit, the other not getting to the bottom of the problem enough and so - loosing.

I see your point about the same outcome option, but... No. Determination to pursue one's case is everything in court. If one is being approached by the staff as to the judges' specific and unusual intention towards the process (and there is law that may allow this to happen), if it wouldn't happen in the first place, the course of proceedings would have been different because there would be no shift in determination to prove one's case. If that makes sense...

Thanks for your input all.

"Hijack their perception"? I don't even know what that means. Can you tell us what happened without being so cryptic?

 

Ok. I am guessing you have had a) a dismissal b) an appeal and c) an ET. Or similar.

 

After being heard 3 times I would get a lawyer's opinion as to whether you actually have a case before investing any more time in it.

I am talking about a completely flawed ET process on the part of staff and direct implications for the rest of the process, employment issues have nothing to do with it here.

Thanks, I skip lawyers since I saw one dismissing obvious case, and another dismissing himself from the case (when it's me who provided missing legal argument).

If you're seriously alleging bias, the courts are under a duty to investigate. An EAT appeal can be submitted within 42 days.

 

I can't see a psychiatric damages case succeeding here though.

A complaint to ET already was issued in the meantime, they investigated, apologised but harassment continued.

Appeal in progress.

GP gave opinion - mild depression in connection to proceedings.

Is High Court the one to submit such claims?

Becky, you say the prejudice cannot be a reason. But what if that prejudice (fuelled by C.o.C. Act) determines one's determination to pursue (or not) their case?

Employment Tribunals may be less formal in the way hearings are conducted but the process around it is the same like in a formal court. It's not a playground where orders to build a sandcastle are given (well, at least not directly, lol).

I think that you are better of starting by making a complaint to the courts service. They do have a central office in London somewhere

Uh-hm, but where such a complaint can get anyone to?

Damages already been done.

Sorry, dear caggers, if I sounded a bit aggressive.

It just shocks me to the bone that people go to court to sue their employers but cannot do it because a t**t decides to hijack their perception.

Becky, I refer to Contempt of Court and Protection from Harassment Acts.

Claim of personal injury and compensation over damages.

Seriously.

I am not talking about a clerk forgetting to put a letter before the judge on one or two occasions.

I am talking about staff prejudicing the attitide towards the whole of the process to the point that the case is damaged and later lost.

Claim involves psychiatric injury so that would be personal injury claim (?).

All backed by law that clearly supports above case.

Where do we start?

With reference to the comments of recording: The EJ stated that the Tribunal was not subjected to the Court and CPR Rules except I believe he mentioned rule 60. He said the Tribunal has its own rule totally different from what is followed by the Court. In the Court you can request for Transcript so that any conduct/misdemeanour of a Judge can easily be identified and where necessary escalated to the appropriate channel for redress.

I guess you can record court hearings in US but definitely not in the UK.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/sep/09/contempt-case-pensioner-released

Other than that

http://www.courtsni.gov.uk/en-GB/Services/recordings-of-proceedings/Pages/default.aspx

At the PHR the Employer was ordered to open up documents. When this order was not complied with the Claimant wrote the Tribunal that the employer refused to comply and requested for another CMD/PHR. The Employer Lawyer firmly objected that it would be disproportionate. The Tribunal then responded that during the substantive hearing the issue should be raised. The Tribunal then overruled the order at the PHR. When the Claimant found out all the evidence he required to prove his case was being refused or over rule he made that comments that the Tribunal were biased.

Who ordered the employer to open the docs following PHR? You or the judge presiding PHR?

Unless there are unusual circumstances (contempt of court on the part of tribunal staff from before CMD or PHR is just an extreme example) you cannot just order another CMD or PHR. This is the process that goes as it goes, step by step, every time taking its toll or creating opportunities to gather more evidence. You have to be very skilled and careful to make sure you have got in hand what you need for the main hearing.

Are you sure the judge wrote back about raising the issue during the main hearing?

The case: Racial Discrimination as one head and Unfair Dismissal as the other head. RR65 was completed requesting information such as training, promotion and pay data for comparators. The Employer refused to provide answers to these questions and other crucial information to help the Claimant formulate his case more

effectively. They only responded to questions that appeared to help their case.

They usually do so, I'm afraid.

When the Claimant wrote the tribunal for the Employer to respond to those crucial information they refused to respond to, the Employer responded back to the Tribunal that they were fully aware for providing evasive answers. In the information they disclosed they refused to disclose names of Comparators but instead provided several codes for each question relating to Comparators so that you cannot identify any comparator or find any trend. For instance Comparator named as Code 11 does not uniquely tie that code to a comparator but only to that question. Code 11 in another question is another Comparator. So you can not form any unique information from Comparator Code 11

Did you claim in your ET1 specificly who you were discriminated against - by mentioning names of other employees?

hi there,

I was expected to work as an event security officer today at covent garden london with showsec event security. I got there on time and then the manager has given us the yellow shirts to put on but all those shirts were extra extra large and i usually wear small size so i asked the manger in a polite way that do u have other sizes in it and then he replied in really harsh and insulting way that "thats all i got if you want to wear then go ahead or otherwise go home" and i was kind of shocked at that moment that i didnt say anything wrong then why he treted me like this then i noticed he was really calm and cool while treating other Britishers so i realize that he is kind of a racist (according to my observation) to cut short i have asked his name and he refused to after that i went to have a word with the lady from showsec ltd to complain about himself and to know about that either they have other sizes or not the lady also mis guided me that they dont have any other size as i have later found the had every size but they dont want to give us the small size as i dont know why when i asked the same lady that how to complain about this whole matter she given me her email addres and tell me to e-mail the whole thing to her as she will pass that complain to others which doesnt make any sense

(infect at the end off whole conversation i weared the xxl shirt eventhough i knw i was looking like joker, but that the same guy told me to leave the site)

so i want to know that is there any possible way to deal with that racist guy.

He may be racist, may be - not [EDIT].

My advice is: keep an eye and a diary on him - what, when and what time he says or does something and who has witnessed that.

He shouldn't have spoken to you like that, that's for sure.

Maybe they have run out of other sizes at the time and only the biggest ones were left? Have you thought about that? How can you prove they had smaller sizes at hand, new, ready to be given away?