and a letter;

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Account Number: XXX

 

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending a copy of your companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

 

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

 

Yours faithfully

BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG Kiss on its way to you under I love you soooo much xxxx

They don't have to supply a copy of the agreement??? Unbelieveable!

 

Have you sent them a Subject Access Request?

Hi Under thanks for ur response. I dont know what that is. What do I do and what purpose does it serve ?? They are so arrogant and have said " we are not required to serve a copy of the credit agreement which includes signatures-as the law expressly permits lenders to omit signatures in the form of a credit card mailer each time a new card is issued".

All I ever got was a copy of their terms and conditions nothing else and Im now really worried they sound so sure that they are right. can you advise ??

MBNA are one of if not the worst bunch of crooks around.

 

Their latest little ruse is adding a cut and paste column of prescribed terms to old agreements that would otherwise have been unenforceable. I know mine are forgeries and will fight them to the bitter end. Would love to prove this bunch of crooks guilty of fraud.

Too right underdog!! Now MBNA have written back to me today saying they do not have to supply a copy of the agreement, they WILL continue to harass me by phone and WILL record a default against me if I continue to not pay. Ive reported them to TS, OFT and FOS. Is there a letter I should send them or just ignore them ??

Thanks fedup I really think thats its time we exposed these horrible people for what they are Why does this law exist at all if they have a carte blanche to walk all over it Does this mean that everything we`ve been told about the law is false ?? Does this mean I really CAN walk into Dixons and march out with a 72" telly because I dont think the law applies to me ?? Is it OK if I pop the next person who upsets me on the nose because Im above the law ?? It certainly seems that way.

Why doesnt the law itself come down like a ton of bricks on these **** ?? Has anyone ACTUALLY got their money back that this pondlife has illegally taken from them. If the boot was on he other foot I`ll bet the law would be falling over itself to get money back from US to give to THEM.

Whilst following this thread, I have a question to ask, why or why, if the credit card companies sell on the debt for 10 p in the £1.00 why on earth do they not let us settle with them for that amount???

If you were a credit card company and you KNEW you had ten thousand unenforceable agreements, would`nt you sell the problem to someone else and let them deal with it !!!

Wow !! Thanks Darset. Lots to think about here xxx

well, i no longer surprised by this outfit anymore, anything is possible

 

so you continue as you are - have they asked you to morally still pay ?

 

or yet given option of a voluntary payment

 

 

laters maz

I told them that I was prepared to pay and would honour the agreement until such time as they were unable to prove that an agreement existed. They have written to me to tell me that they have no agreement on file but have warned me that they will take action if I stop paying. TOUGH !! no agreement no money !! Its just this charging order business that worries me.

Maz: It was your thread I was looking at about charging orders LOL !! What chance to mba have of getting one without any evidence of an agreement ??

hiya

 

well im surprised that ive had letter off mbna suggesting as im in financial difficulties they can get a plan for me or even wait for it a settlement figure and put part settlement on cra file,,,,,

 

but only if i reply quickly,,,,

 

dare i say this is a tactic or just genuine concern that they dont have an enforceable agreement as at the moment what they have sent me is inlegible

 

laters maz;)

Im pretty sure they are just hoping that you will drop your self in the brown stuff by making a voluntary offer. In my case they have even asked me to register the alleged card with them as I dont have a card registered and they dont have a copy of the agreement AND cant find my original t`s and c`s OR provide me with a full account summary !!

BTW can anyone give me some advice about charging orders ?? MBNA have no agreement with me on file and have admitted this in writing. Am I right in my beleif that they cannot get a charging order unless I am in default of a CCJ and they cant get a CCJ if there is no agreement ??? I ve been reading about this in another thread and Im worried and confused about it.

Hi all, This charging order thing worries me. I thought you had to be in default of a CCJ before they could go for a CO?? If they have no cca, how could they get it to court anyway ??? In my case mbna have written to say they dont have an agreement with me on file, so where can they go in my case ?? Bit concerned about this, I hope someone can help.

OMG you couldnt make it up could you ?? My last letter to MBNA was signed for today so lets see what happens now. Any developments your side - let me know ??

Superb Maz.

Either there is a law or there is not. Its Black and White. You cannot steal, murder etc etc and everyone understands that law. There are millions of us who are being intimidated by companies that literally dont care if we live or die. So lets do something about it and get these B****** sorted. I have letters from MBNA and Intrum Justitia saying "sorry no cca" so that means they have been STEALING form me. Thats not MY law, that was made by other people far, far brighter than me .. fine the law is the law.... I want my money back !!

I notice that on all the so called consumer programmes on tv, no one has mentioned cca`ing as an option. Could this be because they dont want people to know about it ??

Conspiracy theory ?? - You bet !!

Thanks guys. Im at the stage now where Im just waiting for it to get REALLY nasty. How can it be that this law exists but they dont seem to have to obey it except as a very last resort ?? I will update you as and when it happens.

I will try and make sure I keep you all up to date; so many threads petre out and you`re left wondering what happened.

I have also made it clear that if they can provide me with ANY evidence that I have made a purchase delivered to my home or with my signature on it I will honour the agreement. But nothing !!

Hi Rory probably around 1998. Why am I getting a bad feeling about this ?? I thought that the absence of a cca was total defence ?? I have asked for evidence of any purchase I am supposed to have made but so far nothing ??

I have a dispute with mbna who are in default after 41 days.

Having gone through all the various permutations of letter available and having received back a brand new copy of their t`s and c`s I reported them to Essex Trading Standards.

At first TS were right behind me "debt unenforceable" etc etc but today they sent me an email saying that if mbna take me to court, the court could find in their favour even though mbna cannot supply a cca. Something to do with an "established debt" and that a court may find in their favour ??? Whats going on ??

My understanding is that without a cca they cannot START court action and that the whole point of asking for the cca id to establish if there IS a valid account. Given that MBNA have asked me if I would like to register a card with them as there is not one registered aginst my name at the moment ( ????) it seems an obvoius answer.

Are Ts talking out of their backsides, I hope so, this business has frazzled my nerves enough as it is.

Great !! Many thanks BRW XXXX

Ive reported MBNA to Essex Trading Standards but they have said that MBNA CAN take me to court who may estalish that is an established debt and enforce payment. I thought that if it was in dispute they couldnt take me to court and even if they tried a lack of cca is total defence ?? Whats going on ???

And another!

 

Here's the latest standard letter from MBNA.

 

Interesting that they say "We've unsuccessfully tried to contact you." Given that the phones calls have now escalated to twice a week but they still haven't replied to my letter of November 4 (despite promising to do so within 28 days) and, of course, still haven't sent legitimate documents in response to the original CCA request that's rich. Well, and a lie, of course.

 

The phone calls are interesting too in that now they simply don't bother with any security questions (which I wouldn't answer anyway) but just start chatting away, basically saying every time that they've answered everything, that I need to make payment, that my credit record will be affected and that they'll register a default. I say that they haven't answered, that they obviously don't care about customer relations, that if they register a default I'll consider taking action for defamation and that the documents they sent re the CCA request are inadequate.

 

Today I amused myself by asking the person concerned how he felt about working for MBNA when everyone seemed to hate them. Was it right, I wanted to know, that the directors and very senior managers were getting millions while he, I assumed, wasn't getting very much. Did he enjoy his job, and so on. I made it clear I was sympathising with him rather than having a go at him but he kept returning to his script and saying that the calls wouldn't stop because that's how the system was programmed.

Superb Darset. You give us all hope

Thanks BRW. I wouldnt mind but they have been solidly behind me until today. I have worked with 6 companys to whom I owe debts and have either worked out a plan or had them wipe the debt. The only 2 who want to play hard ball are mbna and intrum justitia. Both cannot supply cca `s and Intrum say they are collecting on behalf of someone called SV35AG but they cant give me any details about them and Im damned if ive ever heard of them.

Do I take it then that its no cca - no court action ?? sorry to be thick but me and the wife aready on medication and this has hit us for six !!

Sorry to jump in but ive been following this. Ive got a dispute with mbna too and now Essex Trading sandards are saying that if mbna take me to court, the court could find in their favour even though mbna cannot supply a cca. Something to do with an "established debt" ??? Whats going on ??

BTW:

Since I started all this Ive attracted a lot of "friends" in the Manchester area to my Facebook account. Someone called Bez something or other and one Wayne Hatton who works for, guess who ?????

Might be pure coincidence but it might be an idea to upgrade your security settings if you`ve got a Facebook account

Hi all sorry to jump in. Im new here and Im in dispute with MBNA and Intrum Justitia. Ive Cca`d both and had letters from both telling me they cannot supply the agreement. Ive sent them both notice that I will not pay further until the cca is supplied and Intrum have gone all quiet.

MBNA however have carried on as if nothing has been said, they only managed to send me a copy of the T`s and C`s and an offer of another card as I dont have one "registered with them at the moment".

I have reported both MBNA and Intrum to the Financial Ombusman and trading Standards and have told everyone involved that I am suffering from a heart condition and am on anti D`s. Ive had to have my phone cut off because of all the phone calls and Im feeling a bit isolated can anyone advise what else I can do ?? Im sorry to be a nuisance but its really worrying me and my wife. We were able to reconcile all our other debts and paid them off but cant find anything for these two. We`re not scrounging just asking IJ and MBNA to give us some information and they cant so what do we do ??