Hi all

I wanna join this thread too!

I'm on letter number three, i'm pretty certain I didnt buy a ticket, the car was on site for under 15 minutes, i'm not sure who the driver was that day!

One question: is it reasonable to assume if I went into a carpark, spent 5/10/15 mins appraising myself of the T&C's, decided I didnt like the T&C's and left, then 'have I' or 'have I not' agreed to the terms?

Is it a valid argument in court?

Also, i'm pretty sure I didnt agree to anyone taking pictures of my car and looking me up on the DVLC (unless its the cops of course!). can I counter sue for anything?

Cheers

FTD

any update on this thread?

Hi all - Is it generally the case that banks wont start court action for OD's or is it just this case? Bradfordlad, were/are you paying an agreed sum off the OD each month?

Cheers

FTD

I, like many others here was hoping for a win by Pt, but I have to say, and it may be reflected retrospectively in my (few) posts, that PB's arguments stopped me from jumping in headfirst, simply because I was open to both sides of the argument!

The way I see it, a lot of people have jumped on the bandwagon and call PB rude etc, but they themselves are overly rude about it - Just an observation from a neutral party!

FTD

Based on the (quality) legal advice I have been party to, you are absolutely correct.

 

Peter is a mole and is being let to run riot.

Be careful what you post on here...

So because you either dont like, or dont agree with someones arguements, they're a mole? how do we know you're not a mole trying to squash sound advice?

Maybe we should all go round to Peters house, pitch forks and torches in hand, and burn it down so nothing like this will ever happen again!

I'd be of the opinion that any outstanding monies would need to be repaid - not including any charges/interest though & there would possibly need to be a reduction for recompense to the repudiation of contract (or is this wishful thinking?).

FDT

To me, it looks like playing the 'account in dispute' ping pong game with them and whichever DCA they pass the account onto and take it from there!

As far as I can make out, them taking us to court seems better to defend rather than trying to claim back charges, I could be completely wrong but this is how it looks to me, looks like i'll be doing this shortly too.

Unless an arrangement is made then the credit files going to start getting trashed by them (if not already) - if it goes to court there's a couple of avenues open to defend - am I right (anyone)?

If we've already disputed charges with the bank without starting court action then that in itself puts the account in dispute.

FTD

Been reading this thread with interest and am am slowly understanding it.

 

I did a CCA S78 request to my bank and got this reply "A ****account is a current account and these are not regulated by the CCA. Where a current account has an overdraft, then the overdraft element is partially regulated by the CCA. In the case of an overdraft, we must comply with the CCA requirements in relation to taking action for the recovery for the debt, so any notice we serve on a customer must comply with the CCA. However the original agreement to grant an overdraft does not have to meet the formal agreement requirements of the CCA, therefore your request to provide a copy of the credit agreement is not applicable. We therefore return your £1 postal order".

 

However when we opened this account we asked for no overdraft, they just gave us it about a year afterwards and then due to a change in circumstances and lots of bank charges later it stands at over £5k. Went down Hardship route, got nowhere with them or FOS, went down F&F route and they are refusing to accept my payment, so want to get them good and proper on this now, How should I reply to them, I know alot of jdes26 post above will apply, but there doesnt seem to be a template letter anywhere which raises these points? Or could someone point me in the right direction please?

Am I right in thinking if you have an overdraft and disputed charges and the bank decides to call in the overdraft, then DONT pursue reclaiming the charges in court - what you want is the bank/DCA to take you to court for the full amount then rely on the burden of proof (assuming no arrangement is reached)?

cheers

FTD

And if PT loses the case, and for the reasons pointed out by PB, what then?

FTD

I'd certainly report it to the other adressee's - may give them more amunition?

Would I be right in thinking, At worst, any outstanding debt still exisits, but Egg no longer has the right to charge interest on this balance?

FTD

They have replied:

"Our client (egg) has requested that you write to their Customer Relations Office to resolve your dispute.

We are instructed that the above balance remains outstanding and must be paid." Payment to be sent to ARC, full financial statement etc within 14 days or passed back to Trevor Munn....

Is this a direct admission that even though the account is in dispute but they are continuing collections?

FTD

Change banks immediately and have your wages paid into the new bank - Don't ask for an overdraft!

- it'll give you a new perspective, it wont stop the current bank charging you, but at least you wont have to pay out the charges for the time being!

FTD

Can they take money out of a current or savings account to service a credit card or is it just loans and overdrafts where they can help themselves willy nilly?

 

Spam.

I presume they would 'offset' from any account in the Lloyds group if the need arised

I'm firing this off to them as part of my strategy:

Dear Sir

Thank you for your reply dated May 2009, however this reply has left me with no further doubts as to the state of the account as in your reply you state:

“We took the decision to end your agreement on the 16th December 2008”

I can only conclude from this statement that the agreement has ended!

In my April correspondence I stated that in light of no valid agreement existing between us then any sharing, use or processing of my personal details must cease.

You have kindly sent to me what you confirm is a true copy of my regulated credit agreement. Nowhere within this 2 paged signature document can I find any mention of agreeing for you to share or process my information with third parties or credit reference agencies etc. You also kindly sent what you say is a copy of my terms and conditions applicable to the account, I’ll draw your attention again to Point 16 of these Terms & Conditions as you seemed to overlook this fact in your last letter: 16 ‘Use and disclosure of personal information’, point 16.2 clearly states as a single fact ‘With your consent’.

Quite clearly I have withdrawn my consent, and I further note that nowhere in section 16 of the T&C’s does it state that you retain the rights to use and disclose my personal information whilst the agreement is in force.

I will rely on these documents in court should the need arise! Therefore, whether you believe a valid agreement exists between us or not, should you continue to use/process/disclose any information relating to me, then the cost to yourselves is £5000 for the first instance and £1000 for each further instance, payable to myself by cheque, commencing immediately!

These are the terms, if you continue sharing/processing/disclosing my information then that will be taken as you having accepted these terms.

FTD

Have you tried the post office for an account?

FTD

I've had an interesting reply from egg regarding my terminated agreement, I can't scan at present but i'll quote a couple of 'choice' parts.

"We confirm the account does not need to be in default in order for us to terminate your agreement"

"the agreement will not be ended until such time as the outstanding balance on the account is cleared"

"As the agreement is not yet at an end we retain our rights to use and disclose personal information"

"the term of the agreement is cleear and you were given the requested 30 days notice of our intention to end the agreement"

FTD

the last part of term 21.5:

"The Agreement terms allowing the making of new Transactions will no longer be effective, but all other terms will continue to apply until you have repaid your Balance in full."

Also

the statement: 'With your consent' is missing from the sections relating to using/processing personal information with credit reference agencies / third parties!

anyone else receive this email today?:

Changes to your Egg Card Agreement – account number eggeggXXXXXXXXftdftd

Dear Mr ftd

We're making some important changes to your Egg Card Agreement. As your card is no longer active, not all of these changes will affect you.

A summary of the changes effective from 28 May 2009

Condition 2 – this Condition is amended to give you more information about minimum payments. The minimum payment which you have to pay remains unchanged.

Condition 4.1 – this Condition is simplified but its meaning and effect is unchanged. Your interest rates are as previously notified.

Condition 4.2 and a new Condition 4.5 – we have reworded Condition 4.2 for clarity and have moved the section which refers to varying interest rates to a new Condition 4.5.

New Condition 5.3 – this Condition refers to other information about how payments are applied if you fall into arrears. The previous Condition 5.3 has been renumbered to Condition 5.4.

Condition 7.2 – the minimum fee for each Cash Advance made from an ATM is increasing from £3.00 to £5.00. The minimum fee for each Non-ATM Cash Advance Transaction is remaining the same at £3.00. Also this Condition is amended to explain how the minimum finance charge is shown on your statement and to explain which interest rates apply to Charges. This Condition is also amended to show that Existing Egg customers and anyone permanently employed by Egg Banking plc will now be charged a handling fee for each Cash Advance and Non-ATM Cash Advance.

Condition 8.1 – the definitions of "Agreement", "Credit Limit", "Gambling Transaction", "Purchase" are clarified, and the definition of "Existing Egg Customer" is changed to remove the reference to anyone permanently employed by Egg Banking plc.

Condition 9 – additional sections have been added into Condition 9. This has affected the numbering of the existing sections in this Condition.

Condition 9.1 – this Condition is amended to give you more information about Card renewals, authorisation of Transactions and the use of your Account.

Condition 9.2 – this Condition explains how you authorise Transactions.

Condition 9.3 – this Condition now contains information about the circumstances when we may decline Transactions.

Condition 9.4 – this Condition is amended to give you more information about currency conversion.

Condition 9.5 – this Condition has been moved from 9.3 and amended to make it clear that requests under this Condition are subject to our approval and that balance transfers may not pay off sums owed to Group companies.

Condition 9.6, 9.7 and 9.8 – these Conditions have been renumbered but are unchanged except for the inclusion of a reference to the minimum credit limit in 9.8.

Condition 10.1 – this is a new Condition making it clear that you must maintain an active Direct Debit to make your repayments as failure to do so will mean that we may withdraw the credit facility on your account.

Condition 10.2, 10.3 and 10.4 – these Conditions have been renumbered but the meaning and effect is unchanged.

New Condition 10.5 – this is a new Condition that explains what happens if your Fixed payment is more, or less than the minimum payment required under Condition 2. The previous Condition 10.5 which allowed us to allocate payments from you to the product with the highest rate is deleted.

Condition 10.6 – this Condition is unchanged but has been renumbered.

Condition 10.7 – this Condition has been renumbered and amended to give further detail on payment allocation.

New Condition 10.8 – this is a new Condition which explains when we will ask you to pay overdue minimum payments.

Condition 11 – the title of this Condition is changed so that it only refers to Cash Back.

New Condition 12 – this was previously Condition 11.4. It explains that we may offer a Special Promotion from time to time but is otherwise unchanged. Also additional wording has been added into this Condition to explain that you will not qualify for a Special Promotion if you are in breach of the terms of this Agreement.

Conditions 12 to 23 – the numbering of the existing Conditions 12 to 23 has been renumbered to Conditions 13 to 24.

Condition 13.1 and 13.2 – the security provisions in Condition 13 have been reworded and clarified.

Condition 13.4 – this explains that you will be liable for all losses if you act fraudulently.

Condition 15.1 – this Condition is amended to give you more information about your statement.

Condition 16 – this Condition is clarified but its meaning and effect is unchanged.

Condition 18 – Condition 18 is amended to introduce new customer rights if we increase interest rates. You can choose to cancel the use of your Card and keep your existing rate if you tell us you wish to do so before the change takes effect. We will also give an increased notice period for disadvantageous changes that apply to your existing balance.

Condition 18.7 – this Condition is amended to explain that we may suspend the use of your Card if you do not keep your contact details up to date.

Condition 19 – this Condition is amended to explain more about limiting use of the account.

Condition 20.3 – this is amended to explain how we may deal with overdue sums in certain circumstances.

Condition 20.4 – this Condition is changed to explain our right to set off credit balances on other Accounts you hold with us against overdue sums on your Egg Card Account.

Condition 21.5 – this Condition is amended to clarify your obligations and our rights on termination of your Agreement.

Condition 22.1 – this is amended to clarify the meaning of "Personal Information".

Condition 22.2 and 22.3 – this is amended to further explain how your Personal Information will be used. This will not affect or change any Personal Information sharing preferences that you have already agreed with us.

Condition 22.4 22.4 to 22.10 – Condition 22.4 is amended to explain what will happen if multiple searches are made. The remainder of 22.4 is outlined in Conditions 22.5 to 22.9. 22.7 now contains further information about how credit reference agencies use information and the remainder of Condition 22 is renumbered because of this.

Condition 23 – the wording of this Condition is clarified and Condition 23.2 gives additional information about the availability of the card.

Condition 24.1 – this Condition is clarified but its meaning and effect is unchanged.

Except where specified in this email, your Agreement remains unchanged. To view the new and amended Conditions, please visit our website.

If you have any questions about these changes, please call us on 08451 233 233. Alternatively, you can send us a secure message by logging in to 'your accounts' via www.egg.com

Yours sincerely

Mark Powys

Head of Card Product Management

Egg Banking plc

I've fired off another email asking why???

I've been wondering about sharing/processing data with CCA's, what would be the legality of issuing Egg with a 'negotiation' along the lines:

If you want to share/process my data or handling of the account with any third party or CCA then there is a fee of £1000 each month.

If you do share/process my data then that will be taken as your agreement to these terms?

Obviously I plucked an arbiatary figure of £1000 out of the air, if you dont want them to share your info then it may as well be £10,000.

If you were to take Egg to court for the money, you don't have to convince a judge what the 'actual' cost is, it's the fact that you set (or negotiate) a price on a term that the other party has a choice to accept or not?

FTD

I'm after Just a quick definitive answer please:

I have a copy of my lloydstsb platinum credit card CCA which was taken out in Nov 2004. I can't see any mention of the default charges on the 2 pages (front and back), is this a requirement on a CCA of this age?

FTD

The more I delve into the 'facinating' CCA I find more reason to bolster my opinion (and potential defences) that Egg terminated the agreements when they did (before April 2008 when the new regs came into effect for pre 2007 agreements) because they were 'scared stiff' of what a judge 'may' order them to do in court (this makes great reading elsewhere on this forum).

If an agreement was ended before the changes came into effect then they are 'relatively' safe, but at best/worst (depending how you look at it) it leaves the debt in a state of limbo!

There's another angle:

Do we take the 'termination letter' to be a default notice? If so, then the notice was not in the correct format, and after an agreement has been terminated, under the new regs, a second 'correct' default notice cannot be issued after the date of termination - The creditor MUST get it right!

Whichever way I read it, Egg can not 'legally' issue us with any default since ending our agreements!!

I see and agree with where you are coming from with this......but, where does it get us that Egg acted 'illegally' in sending the letter. As far as Egg is concerned the agreement continues until the debt is repaid. So how do we fight that stance by Egg. They won't agree with our view. Take them to court and explain they have acted contrary to s87/88 and thus the letter is voided via s173? (Is a letter a 'term' as stated in s173??).

 

The judge 'voids' the letter, we get our agreement back as it was and Egg just limits the credit available to your debit balance (which is what they should have done in the first place).

I think Egg would still need to prove that they are entitled to limit the use of the account, which they say they can do if they suspect fraudulent use etc (Do they actually have a right to reduce the amount of credit available on an account not in default?)

Then again, we're back to the arguement on the enforceability of the agreement!

FTD

Hi,

I think the thing you're missing is that CCA1974 overrides anything in the T&C's which is not consistent with CCA1974, e.g. the T&C which says the agreement will continue until the debt has been paid has no legal force whatsoever, because it does not match up with anything in CCA1974.

S173 of CCA1974 says that a term contained in a regulated agreement is void if it is inconsistent with a provision contained in CCA1974.

The T&C saying that the Egg agreement will continue until the debt has been paid is inconsistent with S87 and S88 for a start.

 

Regards

I understand your point - the agreement is for 'rolling credit' where the balance is irrelevant and should continue until I terminate it by either:

'defaulting'

or

paying up and writing in that I wish to end it.

but taking at face value the T&C's, anyone who agrees with the T&C's would have to conclude that Egg terminated the agreement (whilst not in default)... In doing so is notice that no debt is owed, the termination letter never mentioned limiting use of the account (is limiting use of the account also in breach of the act?)

FTD

You all need to be quite sure what outcome you want from this approach.

 

As I read it, under breach of contract law, one remedy is to terminate the account, but there is also a choice of returning the contract to a state prior to the breach. I'm not sure who's choice that is the complainant or the court.

 

Similarly under CCA 1974 140B (as amended by CCA 2006 para 19) the court could apply various remedies not all requiring cessation of the agreement.

I'm trying to look at it how a judge (or an impartial ordinary person) would see the terms of the agreement that I signed up to (whether egg can prove they are part of the same document that I signed or not - thats another issue) If I chose to go to court over Egg continuing to chase me for a debt that I no longer see existing by my understanding of the plain English used in the T&Cs:

1. The T&C's say the agreement will continue until the debt has been paid (or thereabouts) Irrespective of what else the T&C's go on to say?

2. The wording Egg used in the 'termination letter was 'We are Ending our agreement' on xx/xx/xx!

Or am I missing something?

FTD