Northern rock taking me to court

[anotherway]

Hi all,

 

Northern Rock are taking hubby to court over a 10k loan. We sent them a letter and financial statement back in jan, and up until June, they were fine with us making reduced payments.

Then we get a letter 18th June saying the agreement is coming to an end and to contact them. So we sent a letter, CCA and another financial statement asking for reduced payments.

 

We get nothing back until the 25th July which is a copy of the credit agreement (nothing else no T&C's, statement of account etc)

Then we get a letter 26th July from Wallers, (their solicitors) saying they are taking court action.

 

Now we have a court claim to deal with. So with regards to that, the court needs a response by Friday 24th August. I am really confused, and if I'm honest feeling a bit overwhelmed.

 

Hubby admits that he owes the money, but they have added the court fee of 250.00 (is this right?) and the solicitors fee of 100.00.

 

They have also stated on the POC's that (they have given 8 but these 2 stand out as unfair to me)

 

* they sent a default notice on the 3rd july. (we have not recieved a default notice)

 

* They have sent further demands, and that the defandant has failed to pay the said sum or any sum. (we have paid on time everytime, the amount agreed on the financial statement)

 

Further to this when I rang them, the litigation department stated that they would be going for a charging order next, however I believe that they can only go for that if we fail to pay / comply with the court order.

Plus they then said after the charging order they would be asking for an attachment of earnings, and again i believe they can only do this if hubby fails to comply with the court order. Is this correct?

 

 

The only other point i have is that we are now just paying the capital on the loan, we started paying this loan back in may 2004 and so have paid all the interest on this loan. In fact we own more now 3 years on than we did in the beginning.

 

Any help would be really appreciated.

 

Can you advise me if this is the correct course of action?

With regards to Northern Rock not complying fully with the CCA - what should we do?

 

With regards to the court claim -

should we -

 

Part admit -We agree we owe 10k but not the court and solicitors fees.

 

We dont admit that we have made no payments towards the loan.

We do not agree the default notice was served.

Northern rock have not complied fully with the CCA.

 

So in that case do I send in the acknowledgement of service to the court, and ask for an extra 14 days to prepare the defence?

 

Thanks again, your help is really appreciated.

[tomterm8]

Hi all,

 

So in that case do I send in the acknowledgement of service to the court, and ask for an extra 14 days to prepare the defence?

 

Thanks again, your help is really appreciated.

 

First, have a read of my thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/108467-basic-introduction-consumer-credit.html

 

Second, I would suggest defending all of the claim.

 

Third, we need the particulars of claim, as written on the form.

[anotherway]

Thanks for the advice,

I sent the acknowledgement of service stating that we would be defending the claim. Also sent the request for info letter to the solicitors which we have just got a response from.

I have a load more questions so please bear with me, and thanks again.....

 

I sent the acknowledgement of service back with the intention to defend within the 14 days, so does that mean that i need to enter my full defence by the 28th day? (that is this thurs)

 

First here's their POC's

 

1. By a CCA in writing made between the defendant and claimant dated 19th may 04, the claimant agreed to advance to the defendent the sum of 10k. The said sum was advance to the defendent on or about the 19.5 04

 

2. The said loan together which the charge for credit calaucalted within the terms of the agreemet was payment by 120 consecutive monthly installments of 119.58

 

3. the said agreement provided

 

a. should the defendent fail to pay any of the monthly installments on time or in full the claimant might require, the defendent to pay inter alia the outsatnding balance of the total amount payabale under the loan agreement and any other sums unpaid. Under the agreement and

 

b. that the defendent agreed to pay cost and expenses which the claimant would incur for obtaining payment should the defendent fail to pay any sum on time or breach the agreement.

 

4. the defendent failed to pay installemnst in the total amount of 666.69.

 

5. Pursuant to the CCA 1974, by a notice default served on the defendant on the 3/7/07 the Clamiant required the Defendant to remedy the said breach by 17 July 2007.

 

6. the defendant failed to remedy the breach within the said period and by a written demand dated 17/7/07 and served upon the defendant the claimant demanded from the defendant the repayment of the outstanding loan balance 10,622.65, and thereby notifeid the defendant that failure to pay that sum within 7 days may result in the claimiant issuing CC proceeding to recover the balance due.

 

7. The defendant failed to repay the balance due within the said 7 days. Therefore the defendant remains liable to pay to the claimant the said sum 10622.25, being the balance of the loan (which includes the said arrears)

 

8. despite further demands made by and on behalf of the claimant, dated 22.7.07 the defendent has failed to pay the said sum or any sum.

 

The claimant therefore claims

1. 10622.25 being the balance of the loan which sum includes the arrears of 669.65 and interest pursuant to the agreement and

 

2. cost upon and indemnity basis to the agreement.

 

 

 

So thats their POC's any comments at all?

 

I have had a response form the solicitors and they have provided the CCA (which looks ok) and the T&C's.

 

2. A statement of account which runs from 3/5/04 to 6/2/07

 

they have added 6 x 30.00 fees for when direct debits have bounced, and added that to the account balance. Can I dispute those? ie have them taken off the balance we owe?

 

Plus they have not added on the 12.47 payments we have made for 7 months or taken that amount off the balance we owe.

So I guess that we can dispute that also.

Can I dispute the court cost and the solictors fees? So far 100.00 solicitors and 250.00 court fee.

 

They also state that they sent a default notice, which we have not recieved, and on the response letter from the solicitors they state "copies of actual default letters sent are not retained by our cilent, only a record that this template was sent out to the customer is retained"

Does this have any bearing at all?

 

On the POC's they state we have made no payments at all since feb which is clearly untrue, we also sent a new financial statement to them when they requested it along with the CCA request. They did not respond to the financial statement, and then sent in the solicitors.

When we recieved a letter from the solicitors initially it had the wrong account number on it. Does this have any bearing at all?

 

Finally Hubby has to have a personal liquor licence for work purposes, will a CCJ affect him renewing it when the time comes?

 

Thanks so much for you help/comments, I feel a bit lost so any guidance at all would be really appreciated.

[e_inspired]

I had the same problem with NR and wallers, managed to avoid CCJ by writing them to let them know it would effect my work and they sugguested a tomlin order, I pay the amount I was paying BEFORE they started the claim but they have added cost nearly £800 to the amount oustanding. I did not want CCJ or know what to do next so I took their offer.. I don't even know were I standing regarding interest!! If its the CCJ you want to avoid you can try doing the same.

 

Heres a link too my thread if you want a copy of letter I sent let me know.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/103653-loans-ppi.html

[anotherway]

Thanks I would like to see that letter if poss.... thanks again

anyone have any comments how to proceed with the defence?

[e_inspired]

I sent this defence its a modified version of one taken from this site:

 

Claim No. xxxxx

 

IN THE GATESHEAD COUNTY COURT

BETWEEN

 

NORTHERN ROCK PLC Claimant

and

 

xxxxxxx Defendant

 

 

DEFENCE

 

 

1. The Defendant objects that the Claimant’s statement of case does not comply with the Civil Procedure Rules Part 16 in that a copy of the written agreement cited in the Particulars of Claim, and which appears to form the basis upon which these proceedings have been brought, has not been served attached to the claim form. The Defendant is therefore unable to plead specifically to the allegations contained within the Particulars of claim at this time.

 

2. Further to paragraph 1 above, a letter was submitted to the Claimant by the Defendant on the xxx xxxx 2007 by special delivery requesting that it provide the agreement cited by the Claimant in its Particulars of claim and other information about the alleged debt to enable the defendant to file a defence and or counter claim. The letter was received on the xxx xxx 2007 by the Claimant. A response was received on the xxx of xxx from the claimant stating that the defendant’s requests were being dealt with.

 

3. The Defendant objects that this action has been brought prior to the Claimant providing the essential information as outlined in paragraph's 1 and 2 above, despite requests that it do so. The Defendant contends that the Claimant has acted without adherence to or regard for the Pre Action Protocols of the Civil Procedure Rules.

 

4. Accordingly, the Defendant requests a stay in proceedings until such time as the Defendant complies with the requests outlined in paragraph 2 above and is therefore able to provide the necessary documentation in order that it can plead its case in compliance with CPR 16. The Defendant reserves the right to plead further to the Particulars of Claim once and if the Claimant produces the original agreement. In the meantime, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief whether as pleaded or at all.

 

 

Statement of Truth

 

 

I believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true.

Dated this xx day of xxxx 2007

 

To the court and to the Claimant

 

..........................

 

Your Name

 

Defendant

 

I then sent this letter to NR by special delivery (again a modified letter from this site):

Dear Sir/Madam

 

I have received the Court claim filed by your company. To enable me to file a defence and counter-claim, I require specific information regarding the account to be provided forthwith. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules, the information and documents detailed below. The information must be furnished by the xxx, which gives you ten days to provide what has been requested. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an order enforcing your compliance will be sought.

 

The following information is required:-

 

I hereby request all data that NORTHERN ROCK PLC hold on me from all relevant filing systems, to include a complete list of all transactions and charges on my account held with NORTHERN ROCK PLC. I also require a transcript of all recorded phone calls pertinent to this account and all notes made in relation to those calls.

 

Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of NORTHERN ROCK PLC, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account held with NORTHERN ROCK PLC.

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

A true copy of the original signed agreement between myself and NORTHERN ROCK PLC.

Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

 

Specific details of the fees/charges levied in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

A true copy of any Default Notice issued in respect of this account

I look forward to your co-operation in this matter and receiving the documentation by the xxxx. Additionally, as the information requested contains sensitive personal details, I expect it to be sent by guaranteed next day delivery, to ensure its safe arrival.

Yours faithfully,

 

xxxxxx

 

Cc Wallers Solicitors

 

I also sent copy of the letter above and the letter below to wallers:

 

 

 

 

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

 

Dear Sir/Madam

I have received the Court claim filed by your company for NORTHERN ROCK PLC please find enclosed a copy of a letter sent to your client in relation to this case.

It would be beneficial if this matter could be resolved without going to court, as your client is aware I am already making consistent monthly payments and may soon be in a position to resume normal payments, if your client persists and is successful it will affect my employment and therefore effect the amount your client may be able to recover in the future.

I hope we can reach some kind of compromise which does not include asking me to pay the full amount outstanding as this would be impossible at the moment.

As you can imagine these are very stressful times for me so I hope we can enter into some meaningful negotiations.

 

Yours faithfully,

xxxxx

 

A few days later got call from NR saying wallers wanted to get a tomlin order and do I agree, after that got letter from wallers had to sign and return to them I was told not to date the order. About a week ago recevied order from my local CC.

[conar686]

Can you post up the agreement.

 

Does it look like the document sent to me http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/33174-consumer-credit-act-agreements-444.html.

 

I've asked for a 2nd opinion as you can see but its missing some of the required terms.

 

I'd also advise not making any reference to actions that may or may not affect your employment by doing so you are giving them a stick to beat you with. Always provide only the minimum of information to get the job done.

[anotherway]

Hi all thanks for the advice, can some one please tell me how to deal with the fact that their calculations are incorrect, and that a default was never recieved etc.

This defence needs to be posted tommorrow, so ant help would be really gratefully recieved.

thanks again

[anotherway]

Please! can anyone help re the above?

thanks

[conar686]

If you've not done so I'd adapt the defence already given

 

On Default & Calcs question - I'm no expert probably best directed at Rory or Laiste but I think both could wait for any counter claim you may make.

[anotherway]

Thanks for your help so far, will PM them and see what thyey can come up with

xx

[Laiste]

Hi,

 

I've just found your thread. You need to be sure that you've got your dates right in respect of when the AoS and defence needs to be filed. For example, if you receive a Court claim with an issue date of the 22nd Aug 2007, you are given 5 days for service (delivery) so that takes you to the 27th Aug. You then have a further 14 days to file your AoS and if you need a further 14 days to file the defence, that is available to you. So in all, you get 33 days in total. If you are unsure, either post up the issue date here, or ring the Court on Monday, the number is on the front of the claim form, on the right hand side.

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.

[anotherway]

Hi Laiste

 

thanks for your messages, its appreciated. The issue date on the claim form is the 7th august. I was told The first response had to reach them on the 26th August, and so I have calculated that the defence has to be in on the 9th sept. (sunday?) I cant complete the defence online, as I have not been given a password on my response pack etc. The MCOL helpdesk isnt open over the weekend so I will have to get this defence done tonight.

Thanks for all your help again.

[tomterm8]

Can you post up the credit agreement they sent you?

 

Is this claim being brought by the original creditor?

[tomterm8]

Oh yeah, have they added any late payment charges etc?

[anotherway]

Hi the agreement is on this link here, and from what I can see it looks enforcable?

 

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc59/vanessabe_2007/Northernrock1.jpg

 

Yes it is the original creditor, Northern Rock. They were ok with a payment plan for 6 months, then didnt respond to our offer of payment when they requested a new one (we sent a CCA request at the same time and have wondered since if this is why) They then sent it straight onto their solicitors.

We havent recieved a Default, although they say they have sent it, but they cant provide us with a true copy of the default either.

They have sent us a statement of account which only gives us a statement up until Feb, but we have paid nominal amounts since then.

They have added 6 x 30.00 quid for direct debits that have bounced.

So we are disputing how much we owe ( i reckon its their calculations minus 6 x 30 and minus the 6 x 12.47 payments we have made since feb.

 

I really dont know how to go on with this.

Thanks in advance

[tomterm8]

I would post the agreement on http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/33174-consumer-credit-act-agreements.html . I think it is enforceable, but would like other peoples opinions.

[anotherway]

I think it is enforcable to be honest.

 

I know I may be asking a very obvious question here, but if i send in the letters outlined above to the court, that I guess will give me a bit more time to prepare my defence?

As I say they have not provided an up to date statement of account, so would this be grounds for a stay?

 

Thanks AGAIN!

[tomterm8]

I think it is enforcable to be honest.

 

I know I may be asking a very obvious question here, but if i send in the letters outlined above to the court, that I guess will give me a bit more time to prepare my defence?

As I say they have not provided an up to date statement of account, so would this be grounds for a stay?

 

Thanks AGAIN!

 

You need to submit a defence on time.

 

 

I guess on a technical legal basis, if they've failed to send you a statement of account on request, they are not entitled to an enforcement order, but that's a pretty thin reed to argue.

 

It might be a good idea to go for a time order or tomlin order, this seems your best bet.

 

I'll be online tomorrow - I need to have a think.

 

(doesn't make much practical difference writing the defence today or sunday, as you'll need to fax it anyway, and the court will only open 9am monday).

[tomterm8]

... can you post a copy of the default notice, minus personal details, if they sent you a copy?

[anotherway]

Thats great, thanks again,

 

we didnt recieve a default notice but, wallers have provided a copy deafult letter template, stating that - 'copies of actual default letters are not retained by our client, only a record that this template was sent to the customer is retained. ' I will scan what they have sent me.

 

So I can fax the defence in then? hooray !!! I can do that tommorrow/sunday. Would it make a huge difference if they recieved my defence on monday? (If i sent it recorded tomorrow?)

 

My plan so far is to send in the defence posted on here, modified to state that I have only recieved part of the information requested, and asking for a stay.

Send a letter to NR asking for all info on me, plus updated statement of account.

 

and this letter to Wallers -

 

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

Dear Sir/Madam

 

I have received the Court claim filed by your company for NORTHERN ROCK PLC please find enclosed a copy of a letter sent to your client in relation to this case.

It would be beneficial if this matter could be resolved without going to court, As your client is aware I am already making consistent monthly payments and have submitted financial statements when requested to do so. I feel that this action is unreasonable on the following grounds.

When I first experienced financial difficulty I contacted your client making an offer to pay based on what I could afford, and provided a financial statement to that effect.

When you client later requested I provide an updated statement I did so, I can confirm this was received by your client, as it was sent by recorded delivery. You client also actioned a CCA request on that date that was contained within that letter. Your client did not respond to my Financial statement, and so I maintained the previously agreed payments.

I then received a letter from yourselves, stating an account number that bore no relation to any accounts held by myself.

Your client then issued a county court claim, When I received the claim form I contacted Northern Rock again, who refused to enter into any negotiations.

I have not recieved a deafult Notice, and your client cannot rpovide me with a true copy.

 

You have also failed to provide me with an up to date statement of account, the statement provided lists transactions until february 2007, and no further.

 

I feel that this claim is a waste of the courts time, as I have endeavoured to settle this dispute without resorting to court action.

 

If your client persists and is successful it will affect my employment and therefore effect the amount your client may be able to recover in the future.

I hope we can reach some kind of compromise which does not include asking me to pay the full amount outstanding as this would be impossible at the moment.

As you can imagine these are very stressful times for me so I hope we can enter into some meaningful negotiations.

Yours faithfully

xxxxxxx

How does all that sound? Can you foresee any pitfalls in that at all?

Tomterm8 - Thank you, I would be chewed up and spat out without help from people like you.

[Laiste]

Hi,

 

I have just looked at the agreement, and if that one page alone is supposed to be your contract with NR, it's unenforceable. It does not state the protection and remedies from what I've been able to glean from the very small print.

 

As the defence can be faxed on Monday, there is no reason for you to send anything by post tommorow. Besides which, if your last day for filing is Sunday, it had to be done by 4pm today. Where a date for filing falls at the weekend, it has to be done by 4pm on the Friday. A plausible reason can be put forward to the Court as to why you didn't do it today, but you will need to speak to the Court on Monday. Do not do anything hastily that you might come to regret. Also, the defence needs to address the issues in their POC and needs to be carefully drafted. Please do not try to cobble something together, that doesn't properly defend your position. You should not be raising issues of payment arrangements in the defence, because if you are defending all of the claim, you are in effect saying that no debt exists and you need to be very careful about the language you use. It is an alleged loan, alleged debt, alleged agreement. The words you use are of the utmost important.

 

As I've already said, in my opinion the debt is unenforceable and your defence should reflect this. You are challenging the very existence of the debt, so comments about pmt arrangements, etc are entirely superfluous to your case. The only really relevant matters are the agreement and the default notice.

 

I hope this helps. Take the time over the weekend to draft the defence.

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.

[anotherway]

Laiste

 

your a star thanks for taking a look for me. I know your busy..

 

What exactly is the protection and remedies? and how would this make the agreement unenforcable? That page is the only agreement we have had from NR, Although Wallers sent some T&C's dated 05/05. The loan agreement was signed 05/04.

I will ring the court on Monday, i simply didnt know that the defence had to be filed on the friday before.

Thanks again.

Vanx

[conar686]

Hi the agreement is on this link here, and from what I can see it looks enforceable?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/33174-consumer-credit-act-agreements-444.html#post1112027

 

Have a look at my post, however the agreement looks pretty much the same a mine with NR. If they did not send the T&Cs with the document then its no enforceable as these are referred to in the main document & must be supplied.

 

There is also no mention of your cancellation rights - this is a prescribed term which should be in a box clearly marked near the signature boxes.

 

I'd post your agreement on the Consumer Credit Act Agreements and ask the experts.

 

My view without the T&CS its unenforceable as these are required. Maybe too late for your defence but worth keeping in mind when you get to court.

 

I'd trawl the site above for the reasons PeterBard gives for the T&Cs to be included if mentioned in the main document

[Laiste]

A further point to note on prescirbed terms, is that they are supposed to be contained within the signature document, because they are fundamental to the agreeement and more important than the general T&C's. An accompanying document containing them will not satisfy this requirement. It is invariably the case that the T&C's are not relateable to the main document, they are not usually dated, of course never signed, which creates enough doubt that they form part of the agreement itself and the creditor cannot prove they do.

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.