HSBC GoldCard sold debt to Robinson Way

[Archangel9]

Seems that the checker at Financial Agreement Solutions is down for maintenance and has been for 3 days, at least.

[Archangel9]

Hi,

 

I posted the CCA that RCW sent me but I've had no responses. I need to know what to do now.

 

Please help, thanks,

Archangel9.

 

P.S: I just a phone call off them, I just logged the time, I didn't answer it.

[Archangel9]

Ok, just been reading through the sticky on enforceable debts which states that if it is an application form, then it isn't a CCA. Now the page they sent me states it is an agreement, but it is also an application form. So, which is it?

 

I'm confused!

 

A.

[Archangel9]

*bump*

 

Just so people who don't read through the entire list can see. Plus, I really need an answer

[Curlyben]

Ok, just been reading through the sticky on enforceable debts which states that if it is an application form, then it isn't a CCA. Now the page they sent me states it is an agreement, but it is also an application form. So, which is it?

 

I'm confused!

 

A.

 

Don't get hung up on this as if the prescribed are present then it will be enforceable in court.

 

As for your CCA;

As the prescribed terms are present this would be enforceable.

Time to get a S.A.R into Sainsbury's and go for the charges, etc and to send a dispute notice to the DCA.

[Curlyben]

You mean these

 

 

S61(1)(a) CCA provides that, for a regulated agreement to be properly executed, it must contain all the prescribed terms of the agreement and conform to regulations under s60(1) – see Q1.14.

 

Reg 6(1) provides that the terms specified in Sch 6 to the Agreements Regulations are ‘prescribed terms’ for the purposes of s61(1)(a) and s127(3) – see Q8.2.

 

8.2 What if prescribed terms are missing or incorrect?

 

s127(3) provides that the court may not make an enforcement order unless a document containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor – see Q1.21.

 

If therefore any of the prescribed terms is missing, or incorrect, the agreement is not enforceable against the debtor, and the court is precluded from making an enforcement order.

 

 

8.3 What are the prescribed terms?

 

The prescribed terms specified in Sch 6 are as follows:

 

* amount of credit – see Q8.

 

* credit limit – see Q8.5

* repayments – see Q8.9.

* rate of interest – see Q8.6

 

Sch 6 was not amended by the 2004 Regulations.

 

 

Also check out Peter Bard's excellent thread on the subject: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/103383-agreement-enforceability.html

[Curlyben]

Ok. Now sainsburys told me they were selling it but not who to. RCW tells me they bought it. They proved this by way of sending the CCA, do I send the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to Sainsbury's or RCW? I would expect it to be RCW as they now supposedly own the debt, right?

 

A.

 

Always S.A.R the original creditor. They are legally bound to supply all the information that they hold on you, so in this case Sainsbury's.

 

DAG rule of thumb.

DCA - CCA

OC - S.A.R

 

CB,

What are the prescibed terms?

 

You mean these

 

 

S61(1)(a) CCA provides that, for a regulated agreement to be properly executed, it must contain all the prescribed terms of the agreement and conform to regulations under s60(1) – see Q1.14.

 

Reg 6(1) provides that the terms specified in Sch 6 to the Agreements Regulations are ‘prescribed terms’ for the purposes of s61(1)(a) and s127(3) – see Q8.2.

 

8.2 What if prescribed terms are missing or incorrect?

 

s127(3) provides that the court may not make an enforcement order unless a document containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor – see Q1.21.

 

If therefore any of the prescribed terms is missing, or incorrect, the agreement is not enforceable against the debtor, and the court is precluded from making an enforcement order.

 

 

8.3 What are the prescribed terms?

 

The prescribed terms specified in Sch 6 are as follows:

 

* amount of credit – see Q8.

 

* credit limit – see Q8.5

* repayments – see Q8.9.

* rate of interest – see Q8.6

 

Sch 6 was not amended by the 2004 Regulations.

 

 

Also check out Peter Bard's excellent thread on the subject: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/103383-agreement-enforceability.html

[elsinore]

Threads merged.

 

Els

[Archangel9]

Don't get hung up on this as if the prescribed are present then it will be enforceable in court.

 

As for your CCA;

As the prescribed terms are present this would be enforceable.

Time to get a S.A.R into Sainsbury's and go for the charges, etc and to send a dispute notice to the DCA.

 

Ok. Now sainsburys told me they were selling it but not who to. RCW tells me they bought it. They proved this by way of sending the CCA, do I send the SAR to Sainsbury's or RCW? I would expect it to be RCW as they now supposedly own the debt, right?

 

A.

[cheesepie]

CB,

What are the prescibed terms?

[Archangel9]

Always S.A.R the original creditor. They are legally bound to supply all the information that they hold on you, so in this case Sainsbury's.

 

DAG rule of thumb.

DCA - CCA

OC - S.A.R

 

 

Ok, will S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) Sainsburys. Now is there a template dispute I can send to RCW?

 

What will then be the outcome? i.e. I take it RCW will continue to send letters requesting payment, threatening court action, etc now they have sent the CCA. Do they have to wait for Sainsburys to comply with the SAR?

 

Once I have the SAR, what do I do?

 

Thanks in (quite) advance,

A.

[pelham9]

For this type of loan the interest rate chargeable does not have to be given in a CCA. The % APR is irrelevent.

 

The actual rate charged can be worked out from the figures which ARE required and which they have given. You have blocked them out . If you wish I will work out the actual rate charged if you send me the figures - PM them to me if you do not want to put them on the forum.

 

I presume that creditcare bronze is some kind of PPI. Consider that you might have been mis-sold this. Was it a requrement of the loan or was it taken out by you completely voluntarily ie there was no pressure on you to do so. Was this insurance fully explained and in particular would you have been able to claim on it.

 

The one thing I can be certain of is that your loan was charged at more than 7.9% pa.

[Archangel9]

For this type of loan the interest rate chargeable does not have to be given in a CCA. The % APR is irrelevent.

 

The actual rate charged can be worked out from the figures which ARE required and which they have given. You have blocked them out . If you wish I will work out the actual rate charged if you send me the figures - PM them to me if you do not want to put them on the forum.

 

I'm not that bothered about the interest rates, it was 7.9% I think.

 

I presume that creditcare bronze is some kind of PPI. Consider that you might have been mis-sold this. Was it a requrement of the loan or was it taken out by you completely voluntarily ie there was no pressure on you to do so. Was this insurance fully explained and in particular would you have been able to claim on it.

 

The one thing I can be certain of is that your loan was charged at more than 7.9% pa.

 

The bronze did not cover me for being out of work for any reason like I expected it to. I originally had a silver (I think) but for some reason they knocked it down ad I didn't really take much notice at the time. I can't remember.

 

A.

[Belaflat]

I have the same sort of agreement and according to the checker on a certain site, may be unenforceable because the interest rate stated is incorrect. I havnt put it to the test yet but may have to soon as a certain Lowlife DCA are taking it to court if I dont pay the special reduced offer by next week.

My rate was also quoted as 7.9%

I would have liked to have seen the terms and conditions but they were not sent, might have some clause to stop them charging interest etc after default/judgement.

Thats why I posted earlier in this read thread re them not being sent to Archangel.

[pelham9]

If the interest rate needed to be quoted and it was given as 7.9%APR this does not satisfy thr CCA. I have not yet seen a bank that does not charge a higher rate than the %APR.

 

Even if the only cost of a loan is interest the %APR is always an approximation and an approximation to one decimal place is not accurate enough to calulate interest.

 

We all need to realise that %APR does not give the annual rate that we will be actually charged. So please people stop saying that the interest rate is 7.9% if you have been quoted 7.9%APR - it isn't.

[Archangel9]

Ok, I found this template

 

YOUR ADDRESS LINE 2

LINE 3

POSTCODE

To: RCW

[DATE]

BY HAND

Dear Sir/Madam

Re: Your Reference

 

Sainsbury's appears to have sold you above debt.

 

 

I hereby give notice that this account is in dispute and Sainsbury's are at present conducting fuirther enqiries

 

 

For this reason, I would like to request that this account be referred back to Sainsbury's until the relevant investigations are completed.

 

I would point out that I have no knowledge of any such debt being owed to Sainsbury's.

Not sure about this stuff here:

This notice directs that you are not being given entry to my home or to levy goods contained within. This notice revokes your entitlement to charge a Walking Possessions fee. Please be advised that if your fees are found to contradict [Regulation 45(2) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 and you may be liable for criminal prosecution under section 1 to 5 of Fraud Act 2006, and I will automatically file a Form 4 complaint at your certificating court.

Please be advised it is not a "criminal offence" for me to deny a bailiff entry to my property, if a bailiff threatens me with getting a locksmith without a levy or tries to break & enter my home, I will automatically make a complaint to the police and the bailiff may receive a criminal record and will not be allowed to continue trading as a certificated bailiff.

Please provide me with a breakdown of your fees and pass them through the letterbox

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

cc Sainsbury's

[pelham9]

Forget entirely about bailiffs.

 

Baifliffs can only be used by a DCA if they have a CCJ and then a warrant from the court. So no bailiffs to worry about unless they win in court.

 

DCAs often threaten that they will send somebody round. They hope you will think this will be a bailiff and that this will scare you. Do not be intimidated. These people have no legal standing whatever. If they do arrive close the door on them and if they hang around call the police. OFT guidelines say that if they want to visit the must make an appointment. DCAs ignote this.

[Archangel9]

I'm sort of more bothered about how to word this considering they sent me a CCA.

 

A.

[Archangel9]

Just going over my documentation, I CCA's them on 23/01/08 and they responded with a CCA on 05/03/08 which is over the 12 days required by law. Does this have any impact on things?

 

Ta,

A.

[Archangel9]

Also, in my searches, I found this message regarding ownership of debt, is there a way to find out whether the DCA has total ownership or joint ownership of a debt?

 

Thanks,

A.

[Archangel9]

I've had more calls from these morons. I shall be sending the this letter which will be interesting.

 

A.

[pelham9]

THe DCA either own the debt -they have bought it or they are acting as agents for the original creditor in which case the OC still own the debt. They cannot part own a debt.

 

Write to Sainsburys to find out what the position is. Sainsburys should have informed you that they have sold the debt so push them on this.

[Archangel9]

THe DCA either own the debt -they have bought it or they are acting as agents for the original creditor in which case the OC still own the debt. They cannot part own a debt.

 

Write to Sainsburys to find out what the position is. Sainsburys should have informed you that they have sold the debt so push them on this.

 

I think I've mentioned this before, but I did get a letter from Sainsburys saying that they were looking to sell the debt on, they never confirmed they sold it nor who to.

 

I'll be trying to come up with a letter to send to RWC and post that soonish. I'll be S.A.R'ing Sainsburys as stated above too.

 

Thanks,

A.

[pelham9]

If Sainburys have sold the debt there will be a Deed of Assignment to the DCA. The DCA will have to produce this to a court to prove their ownership and their right to act . Ask them for a copy of this DOA. If they take you to court they will have to produce it so why not now?

 

Just a simple letter will do. Keep them busy. If they do not reply and they probably wont file the letter away to use in court.

[pelham9]

The CCA you have been sent contains all the prescribed terms required. It also contains the %APR which is not required for this type of loan.

 

It would be as well to to check that the %APR they have given is correct - it probably is . To do this we need the figures in the CCA which you have blocked out. Please post them.

 

If the %APR they quote does not agree with the other figures you would certainly have grounds for asking a judge not to enforce the CCA as you have been mislead.

 

Although the %APR they give is probaly correct the lower echelons in banks do get it wrong because ( like you?!) they do not understand what the %APR is all about. It is NOT the rate of interest that thay will have charged but an approximation of that rate.