Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited

[digel]

I got a ticket from Hammersmith and Fulham for stopping on a box at lights. I can't remember the incident but apparently they have an operator who recorded the incident on CCTV. Does anyone have any experience of whether their evidence is likely to be any good and what the law is surrounding this?

[patdavies]

You need to go to PePiPoo: Helping the motorist to get justice with this one and post in the parking ticket forum. there is a member there Box Clever who is well up on the legalities of box junctions and CCTV enforcement.

 

BTW, there is no offence of stopping in a box junction.

[NoWay2PCN]

I received a PCN for the same alleged contravention last week from LBH, and the evidence supplied on it is 'flimsy' to say the least, not to mention the fact I hadn't broken the prohibition. I have every confidence that LBH will cancel the PCN, and I actually feel they are trying to extort money.

 

Here's a link that may help:

http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/user_documents/Place%20Invaders%20Ltd.doc

The relevant part is:

 

7 (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, [box junctions] shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

 

(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person

 

(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right: and

 

(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.

There's a lot of information that can be gathered relating to box layout too.

[Jimster]

Hi. I recently got a £60 fine for having one foot of my car in a box junction in Wandsworth for seven seconds. Is there something I can do about this, because I feel an appeal will fail? I have complained to them about the whole system breaching legal principles - ie guilty until proven innocent, the same fine no matter how much congestion is caused (none, in my case). J

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Hi. I recently got a £60 fine for having one foot of my car in a box junction in Wandsworth for seven seconds. Is there something I can do about this, because I feel an appeal will fail? I have complained to them about the whole system breaching legal principles - ie guilty until proven innocent, the same fine no matter how much congestion is caused (none, in my case). J

 

Do you think you have entered and stopped within the box junction? If not then there's your appeal.

[Jimster]

About one foot of the rear of my car stopped in the junction,. does the whole car have to be in it? j

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

About one foot of the rear of my car stopped in the junction,. does the whole car have to be in it? j

 

No idea. Personally I would have said within is within and not partially within. Worth a shot.

 

This is what the contravention is:

 

7 (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, [box junctions] shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

it is not:

7 (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, [box junctions] shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop with any part of it within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

Nor is it:

7 (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, [box junctions] shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to be in the box junction so that the vehicle has stopped within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

The case referred to is a good one. They need to have evidence showing you entering the box junction and stopped within it. They should give you access to that evidence.

[patdavies]

The case referred to is a good one. They need to have evidence showing you entering the box junction and stopped within it. They should give you access to that evidence.

 

No.

 

They need to have evidence that when you entered the box junction, your exit wasn't clear (unless you were waiting on oncoming traffic and turning right).

 

The offence reported is stopping in a box junction when prohibited. Merely stopping in a box junction is not an offence.

 

eg. There are two lanes of traffic into and out of the box junction. Your exit is clear and you enter the box. Another vehicle changes lane blocks your exit, causing you to stop on the cross-hatchings. You have committed no offence. Your exit was clear when you entered the box - that is sufficient.

 

The offence cannot be proven by static pictures - such a picture cannot even prove that the vehicle was stationary. Only video that clearly shows the whole junction and it exits can show whether or not an offence was committed. Demand to see the video.

[NoWay2PCN]

Jimster, firstly, you have my sympathy. Not wishing to appear flippant, it sounds like you entered, and mostly exited the box. It's a sorry state of affairs when local authorities are determined to prosecute the letter of the law, and common-sense goes out of the window. Follow the good guidance in previous posts.

 

Additionally, if you can, find the location of the box using Google Maps or Google Earth, and print the satellite picture. Then check the actual road markings to see if it complies with statutory requirements set out in The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 Section 29(2). The diagrams are here http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2002/023113by.gif This might prove useful if you have to submit a PATAS appeal.

 

As a footnote to my earlier post above, I spotted that the L.A. in its rejection letter of my informal appeal stated in one paragraph that I had 28 days to appeal further, and in a subsequent paragraph stated I had only 14 days. When I queried this they cancelled the PCN on 18 September. So, it pays to read everything carefully! By the way, I had entered the box for the purpose of turning right.

[Jimster]

Thank to all for those very helpful comments. Because TfL are so totally unreasonable, I have decided to 'fine' them £60. They are abusing the important principles of justice by making us: a. guilty until proven innocent b. dissuaded from making an appeal. c. acting as judge and jury. So, I am going to lend my Oyster card to people when I don't need it so that they get free travel, stopping when I have cost them £120 worth of it.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

No.

 

They need to have evidence that when you entered the box junction, your exit wasn't clear (unless you were waiting on oncoming traffic and turning right).

 

The offence reported is stopping in a box junction when prohibited. Merely stopping in a box junction is not an offence.

 

eg. There are two lanes of traffic into and out of the box junction. Your exit is clear and you enter the box. Another vehicle changes lane blocks your exit, causing you to stop on the cross-hatchings. You have committed no offence. Your exit was clear when you entered the box - that is sufficient.

 

The offence cannot be proven by static pictures - such a picture cannot even prove that the vehicle was stationary. Only video that clearly shows the whole junction and it exits can show whether or not an offence was committed. Demand to see the video.

 

Sorry Pat, I think you are reading too much between the lines of what I am saying.

 

I said nothing about static pictures. What I said was:

They need to have evidence showing you entering the box junction and stopped within it. They should give you access to that evidence.

In the cited case the adjudicator criticised TFL for not producing evidence showing the vehicle entering the box junction and it was that to which I was referring.

I am aware of the exemption for turning right but there is no suggestion that this applies here. There is no specific exemption for a vehicle changing lanes, however, I can see a good argument in such circumstances. Again though, there is no suggestion that those circumstances apply.

What does appear to be the case is that TFL have not provided evidence to substantiate that the contravention took place and I do agree with you that video evidence is the most appropriate way to do so.

I would advise digel to request the video from TFL and in the absence of it I would appeal and I would also ask the adjudicator to award costs on the grounds of their wholly unreasonable behaviour in pursuing this matter in light of the previous case.

[patdavies]

The point that I am trying to make (and obviously failing) is that entering and stopping in a box junction is not an offence.

 

The offence is entering when the exit is blocked by a stationary vehicle. ie you would have to stop within the box because of a stationary vehicle

 

If the vehicle the other side is not stationary - no matter how slowly it is moving,or if it stops after you have entered the box - no offence is committed.

 

This is why video evidence is a necessity and it must clearly show the traffic on the far side of the box

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

The point that I am trying to make (and obviously failing) is that entering and stopping in a box junction is not an offence.

 

Correct, it is a contravention rather than an offence!

 

I think that if your point was worded "stopping in a box junction is not necessarily a contravention" we would be in total agreement.

 

What is clear to me is that TFL have a track record of misapplying this contravention and no doubt many, many motorists have needlessly paid a PCN because of this misapplication.

 

De-criminalised enforcement generally reverses the burden of proof onto the motorist. The Authority issues a PCN based on prima facie evidence of a contravention and it is up to the motorist to provide evidence to the contrary. In the ordinary course of events I can see how an Authority may take a still photo that appears (by virtue of context and vehicle positions etc) to show a stationary vehicle in a box junction as prima facie evidence of a contravention.

 

However, the adjudicators judgment in the Place Invaders case is clear. That it is insufficient. TFL know this and it is for this reason that I believe that there is a good case to say that where TFL are issuing PCNs based solely on such evidence they are acting unreasonably if they fail to cancel them at appeal and a request for an award of costs by the adjudicator is entirely reasonable and appropriate.

[bribri]

2 points.

 

1 - I have had a PCN from LB Haringey for 'stopping' on a yellow box. I challenged by pointing to their photographic evidence which showed that at least two vehicles in the right turning lane next to me whilst I was going straight on, changed lanes and thus impeded my exit. The PCN was cancelled presumambly on these grounds.

 

2. I have always worked on the assumption that one's exit should be clear before entering a box junction when going straight on. Are the various members here in agreement that as long as there is movememnt from the cars in front then it is legit to enter the box? That is what patdavies appears to suggest

 

"The offence is entering when the exit is blocked by a stationary vehicle. ie you would have to stop within the box because of a stationary vehicle

 

If the vehicle the other side is not stationary - no matter how slowly it is moving,or if it stops after you have entered the box - no offence is committed."

 

 

I read the prohibition as causing a vehicle to stop in the box due to a stationary vehicle meaning I, the driver, must read the road ahead and judge whether there will be a stationary vehicle ahead when the ligfhts change not that it is moving when I set off. Surely the point of the yellow box is not for it to be blocked to traffic going across it when the lights change.

 

Please ask me to clarify if not clear.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Bribri,

 

I understand what you are saying. The old rule (I don't have my highway code to hand to look it up) was to the effect of "don't enter unless your exit is clear". There was always the exemption for turning right.

 

I think that what has happened is that the wordsmiths have tried to be more definitive but have created the potential for confusion. Consider the scenario: you are in a line of "nose to tail" moving traffic and you enter a box junction, the car in front of you stops causing you to stop before you have exited the junction. I believe there is a case to say that you have committed a contravention. That is not to say that I wouldn't be prepared to argue along the lines that Pat suggests I just feel it's touch and go as to whether or not you would get away with it.

 

Bear in mind also that unless the adjudicator is bound by a higher decision, they will decide each case on its own merits. Previous cases are persuasive only.

[patdavies]

Correct, it is a contravention rather than an offence!

 

In fact, it is either. When enforced by a Council, it is a contravention; when enforced by Police it is a criminal offence. The existence of Council enforcement is merely permissive, not exclusive; and does not preclude Police enforcement.

 

Granted in this case we are dealing with Council (TfL) enforcement

 

 

In the ordinary course of events I can see how an Authority may take a still photo that appears (by virtue of context and vehicle positions etc) to show a stationary vehicle in a box junction as prima facie evidence of a contravention.

Any still photograph - even if the vehicle is travelling at 100 mph - will show a stationary vehicle

[patdavies]

I read the prohibition as causing a vehicle to stop in the box due to a stationary vehicle meaning I, the driver, must read the road ahead and judge whether there will be a stationary vehicle ahead when the ligfhts change not that it is moving when I set off. Surely the point of the yellow box is not for it to be blocked to traffic going across it when the lights change.

 

 

 

Your understanding is the common-sense one and is what was effectively written in the old Highway Code.

 

Do not enter the box unless your exit is clear.

However, the Act, as quoted by BtB above is different

 

7 (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, [box junctions] shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Any still photograph - even if the vehicle is travelling at 100 mph - will show a stationary vehicle

 

Sorry again. It will show a vehicle that appears to be stationary. For example, traditional film of a moving vehicle is in fact a series of still photographs, individually they will show a vehicle that appears to be stationary but which neverthe less is moving. They may also contain elements that depict movement such as blurring. Shown in sequence they will create an illusion of movement that looks real to the naked eye. They may also show no movement and therefore support the view that the vehicle was in fact stationary.

 

I suspect that the cameras used by TFL are, however, video cameras which work differently. I suspect that what TFL have done is to "grab" an image from the video showing a vehicle that appears to be stationary. But that is not conclusive, what is needed is a video that shows the vehicle (and its projected exit) from its point of entry into the box junction to becoming stationary and the reasons why it became stationary.

 

If TFL have not kept this evidence but are seeking to rely on the single still image then I rather suspect that they are stuffed but it will come down to the balance of probabilities.

[djgordyp]

I'm afraid to say I have very little sympathy for anyone fined for stopping in a yellow box. It is very frustrating when someone blocks your exit. Take this scenario for example. Lights A to B is a straight line and C comes from the right and can only turn right. B and C are green, no problem. C and B turns red and A turns green Soon the traffic at B is back to the yellow box. Set of light B is clearly visible from A. Even so some idiot always drives into the box and blocks my exit:evil:.

Back to my example. Lights C now turn green followed by B. It can take close on 15-20 seconds for the line to B to clear and in that time C are usually back to red again. Sometimes I have had to sit through two changes of the lights because some people don't read the road

Now I don't claim to be a great driver but, if there is a box junction and I am in bumper to bumper traffic, I don't blindly follow the car in front. I will stop at the box until I know that I can cross it. And if the people behind me don't like it then too bad. I believe in the three c's Care, Courtesy, Consideration. I don't like being blocked at these junctions but I won't be guilty of doing the same to others.

 

I'll get of my yellow, I mean, soap box now and go get my dinner:)

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

I'm afraid to say I have very little sympathy for anyone fined for stopping in a yellow box. It is very frustrating when someone blocks your exit. Take this scenario for example. Lights A to B is a straight line and C comes from the right and can only turn right. B and C are green, no problem. C and B turns red and A turns green Soon the traffic at B is back to the yellow box. Set of light B is clearly visible from A. Even so some idiot always drives into the box and blocks my exit:evil:.

Back to my example. Lights C now turn green followed by B. It can take close on 15-20 seconds for the line to B to clear and in that time C are usually back to red again. Sometimes I have had to sit through two changes of the lights because some people don't read the road

Now I don't claim to be a great driver but, if there is a box junction and I am in bumper to bumper traffic, I don't blindly follow the car in front. I will stop at the box until I know that I can cross it. And if the people behind me don't like it then too bad. I believe in the three c's Care, Courtesy, Consideration. I don't like being blocked at these junctions but I won't be guilty of doing the same to others.

 

I'll get of my yellow, I mean, soap box now and go get my dinner:)

 

This is why local authorities are allowed to enforce them. What they are not permitted to do is to levy a penalty on people who have either not committed a contravention or where they have no proof.

 

I too have no sympathy for those who are caught fare and square (whatever the contravention). But I have less sympathy for authorities who rely on the motorists ignorance or their not wanting the bother to levy penalties they are not entitled to.

[bribri]

Patdavies

 

My reading of the Act turns on, of course, interpretation of words.

 

no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

 

If I can see my exit is not completely clear or will become so when I enter the junction then I have caused the vehicle to enter the junction with the result that it has to stop in the junction when the lights change. I think there is a sense of future happenings in the tone of 'so that'. Thus the original Highway code version stands firm and indeed is commonsense.

[busa]

Hi Chaps

 

i too have been allegedly doing wrong...... but I'm afraid they may be in for a little shock.... i got caught in a box junction due to emergency vehicle's wanting to pass..... but thats not the clincher.... it was a "t" junction box (covering both lanes each direction) and i was on the other side of the road to the junction...so quoting a site called ticket fighter:

• The yellow box regulation only applies to a vehicle which is stopped. A vehicle which is moving slowly cannot be ticketed. Ensure the authority has evidence that your vehicle was stopped. A single still photo does not prove the vehicle was stopped.
  

• The offence is committed when you enter the box. Therefore if circumstances afterwards change, such as a vehicle changing lanes and blocking your exit, you can appeal. The authority must have video evidence of your vehicle when it enters the box and stopped and this evidence must show also that the exit was not clear when you entered.
  

• A yellow box must have four sides.
  

• The yellow lines must go into the corner of the box, as shown in the picture below
  

• The box should go right up to the kerb
  

• There should be only one yellow box at a junction
  

• A yellow box at a T junction should cover only half of the junction (the half next to the side road), as shown in the second picture below
  

• A box which deviates from the standards requires approval from the Department for Transport (DfT). You may request evidence of this approval when appealing your ticket. If the authority doesn't have DfT approval (which is likely) then the box is invalid and cannot be enforced.
  

• Yellow boxes do not require a traffic order
  

• Click here for the law on what information a yellow box junction ticket must contain. All of Islington council's tickets were recently deemed invalid for failing to comply with the law.
  

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) 2002 governs the format that a yellow box junction must take and the information below summarises this legislation.

 

 

just writing the the local council now......should be interesting....!!

 

Nick