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Me vs Nationwide


eeloojon
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Have sent this via internet banking -

 

30/01/06

 

 

WITHOUT PREDJUDICE

 

Dear Sir,

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxx

 

I have held the above mentioned current account with Nationwide for the past year and before this I have been a customer of Nationwide since I had a childrens smart account. During this time I have incurred charges for exceeding my overdraft limit due to cheques being cleared at unfortunate times, unauthorized overdraft fees, direct debits and standing orders being dishonored (and in some cases honored) due to insufficient funds. These charges meant you were penalizing me during periods of financial difficulty.

 

It is my opinion, and that of the Office of Fair Trading (OFT), that these charges are punitive in nature, not a genuine pre-estimate of cost and not intended to re-imburse your losses for a breach of contract occurring. Further to the 1999 Consumer Credit Regulations quoted by the OFT, there are numerous cases in law that prove that punitive charges in contracts are unenforceable at English law.

 

Murray v Leasureplay (2004)

Dunlop Tyre Company v New Garage and Motor Co. (1915)

Bridge v. Campbell Discount Co. Ltd. (1962)

 

There are many more cases of this type – far more than I have room to list here.

 

Further to these cases, I also believe these charges to be a direct breach of the 1977 Unfair Terms (contracts) Act which require that contract terms be reasonable. I do not believe these charges are reasonable as outlined in the aforementioned act.

 

 

With this in mind, I respectfully request that you return to me ALL charges made on this account in the last 6 years within 7 days of receipt of this letter - 06/02/06 - by way of immediate payment to the above account or personal cheque. This amount is £577. If you choose not to do so, I will start proceedings for recovery in the County Courts, as I believe that legally I am entitled to this money back. By doing so, you will be eligible for my court costs and for an extra 8% APR as allowed by the County Courts Act (1984). This money would be used in some way to clear my overdraft on this account.

 

Further to this, if you decide NOT to accept my offer of settlement of this issue, I would like to make a formal request under the Data Protection Act (1998) for a complete and exhaustive list of all charges made on this account over the last 6 years. As you are no doubt aware, you are afforded 40 days to comply with this request or you must request an extension from the Information Commissioner. If you are of any doubt that this information is covered by the act, may I respectfully draw your attention to the case of Durant v LloydsTSB where the judge ruled that bank statement information is indeed personal information and thus covered. In any event, this information is requested with a view to prospective legal action on my part and therefore would be covered under the same act.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

-----------------------

 

Is that ok? Im worried!!!

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It says everything so why worry?

You might try and have a little chat with them before you send the letter and try an dresolve it amicably - sirt of, but I wouldn't wast too much time after you have decided that they don't want to talk.

 

I'm a bit confused as to why you are asking for a statement when you seem to know exactly how much you are claiming.

Also you give them 7 days before taking action but then ask for DPA disclosure which gives them 40days.

This doesn't prevent you from beginning your action anyway but it's a bit inconsistent

Make sure that you know exactly what to do so that on the 8th day you can go ahead and sue. Don't make threats that you won't keep or else you lose all credibility.

Also, are you prepared for them to close your account?

I would go and open at least one other bank account immediately so that you have a debit card etc before they trash your credit score.

They may not close your account but it would be prudent to consider that it is a possiblity.

 

To help protect you from this, you should complain now about the principle of the charges generally and ask for a deadlock letter to the Ombudsman.

It would be quite extrordinary for them to close your account while you have an Ombudsman compaint underway - even if it was only just beginning. If they did that then you should complain to the Ombudsman directly that they are trying to frustrate your complaint to his office. He won't be pleased.

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eeloojon, I am currently in a dispute with Nationwide, and I think my experience to date might be of use to you.

 

I had an loan of £2000, which I was paying at the rate of £100 per month. I added up all the charges I had ever had (about £900) and told them I was deducting them from the amount owed. So far, so good. At this point they got irritated with me and demanded payment in full.

 

I continued paying my monthly amount while Nationwide started their very tedious debt collection routine - endless phone calls; crass, threatening letters - the usual stuff, until eventually they got round to sueing me for £1500.

 

A few weeks after starting their action, they posted a Default notice with Equifax, which is categorically in breach of The Banking Code. At this point I stopped paying them (still with £600/£1500 outstanding.

 

Anyway, after I received the summons I put in a defence based closely on the one from the Govan Law Centre's website, and waited for the case to call.

 

Eventually the case called and Nationwide's lawyer stood and asked me how much of the outstanding amount I was prepared to pay, to which I responded "Nothing". He then said that his fall back position was for Nationwide to abandon their case, so long as I abandoned my counterclaim (I had counterclaimed for damages stemming from them trashing my credit rating).

 

This is where it gets tricky, because I refused point blank to drop my case until they removed the Default altogether from my credit file, but they said they were only prepared to mark it as 'settled', which is no good. So now we are in a bit of a stalemate, because the judge decided that the matter of whether or not they should have sent the Default notice to Equifax should be decided by the Financial Ombudsman Service (not an organisation I have much confidence in), and the case has been put on hold until this is decided.

 

The curious thing about the whole case is that Nationwide were prepared to walk away from the entire loan, even the bit which was not disputed.

 

Anyway, the whole thing is on hold for now. I'll let you know how I get on.

 

The important thing to remember however, is that Nationwide have absolutely no intention whatsoever of allowing their charges to be examined in court.

Robertxc v. Abbey - £3300 Settled in full

Robertxc v. Clydesdale - £750 Settled in full

Nationwide v. Robertxc - £2000 overdraft wiped out, Default removed by order of the sheriff

Robertxc v. Style Card - Default removed by order of the sheriff

Robertxc v. Abbey (1) - Data Protection Act action. £750 compensation

Robertxc v. Abbey (2) - Data Protection Act action. £2000 compensation, default removed

 

The opinions on this post are those of Robertxc and not necessarily the opinions of the group and do not constitute sound legal advice. You are advised to seek professional legal advice.

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Very interesting Robert good luck with your case i will be watching it closely :)

 

Something interesting has happened.

 

I was charged another 2x£30 and a £20 on 23 Jan for last months unpaid dds and over limit charge.

 

I sent my email via internet banking on Monday demanding a £577 refund.

 

No reply as yet buttttt today I log on and not only have they credited a loan payment back on that took me over my limit but the £80 charges to. Without telling me. Can they do that? Not that I am ungrateful just that it might harm my claim if they say I accepted a partial refund?

 

31 January 2006 Refund of Interest Charge .

Credited on 23 January 2006 £80.00

 

Hmmmmm.

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Just a suggestion eeloojon, but I wouldn't use their website's email system to send documents which you might need in court. Far better send stuff to them by traditional post, preferably registered. That way there can be no ambiguity about 'acceptable formats' etc. Also, if you go into any business with multiple outlets, you will almost always see a notice giving details of the business, including an address "where documents can be effectively served". I think it is best to make sure everything goes to that address, so there can be no misunderstanding, and so that you can be sure that your communication is going to someone who matters.

Robertxc v. Abbey - £3300 Settled in full

Robertxc v. Clydesdale - £750 Settled in full

Nationwide v. Robertxc - £2000 overdraft wiped out, Default removed by order of the sheriff

Robertxc v. Style Card - Default removed by order of the sheriff

Robertxc v. Abbey (1) - Data Protection Act action. £750 compensation

Robertxc v. Abbey (2) - Data Protection Act action. £2000 compensation, default removed

 

The opinions on this post are those of Robertxc and not necessarily the opinions of the group and do not constitute sound legal advice. You are advised to seek professional legal advice.

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Just a suggestion eeloojon, but I wouldn't use their website's email system to send documents which you might need in court. Far better send stuff to them by traditional post, preferably registered. That way there can be no ambiguity about 'acceptable formats' etc. Also, if you go into any business with multiple outlets, you will almost always see a notice giving details of the business, including an address "where documents can be effectively served". I think it is best to make sure everything goes to that address, so there can be no misunderstanding, and so that you can be sure that your communication is going to someone who matters.

 

Thanks Robert. Thing is on the complaints section of Nationwides website it promotes the use of their email system. When making the email I chose the complaints heading from a drop down menu. Also my sent messages are saved.

 

But I hear you. If I get no reply I will either take it in to branch or send it. Any idea whats goin on with the £80 refund?

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They're probably trying to placate you so that you won't go after them for the £577. Their reasoning might be that these new charges could very well be the thing that tips you over into actually starting proceedings, so better just to refund them.

 

I wouldn't worry about harming your claim - the chances of them defending such a small amount are zero.

Robertxc v. Abbey - £3300 Settled in full

Robertxc v. Clydesdale - £750 Settled in full

Nationwide v. Robertxc - £2000 overdraft wiped out, Default removed by order of the sheriff

Robertxc v. Style Card - Default removed by order of the sheriff

Robertxc v. Abbey (1) - Data Protection Act action. £750 compensation

Robertxc v. Abbey (2) - Data Protection Act action. £2000 compensation, default removed

 

The opinions on this post are those of Robertxc and not necessarily the opinions of the group and do not constitute sound legal advice. You are advised to seek professional legal advice.

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Ok now they are just taking the piss!!

 

They totally try to charge people on purpose!

 

My overdraft limit is £1550. I have checked my internet banking today and this caught my eye -

 

24 January 2006 Cheque 300052. £15.00 -£1532.30

 

24 January 2006 Returned Cheque 300052. £15.00 -£1517.30

 

I was within my limit! I have made a complaint and requested any charge not to be applied as it was clearly the banks fault.

 

This just adds to be case against them grrr.

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I have recieved a reply through post -

_________________________________________________________

 

Thank you for taking the time to share your concerns with us, regarding the charges on your account.

 

i am pleased to tell you that as valued member the sum of £110 has been cancelled and £80 has been refunded. Whilst these charges have been cancelled we cannot guarentee that future requests will be granted.

 

The majority of our members do not pay any charges on their flexaccount. However, we do apply a fee for a transaction that causes unauthorised overdraft. This could include returning an item because of unsufficient cleared funds or paying a cheque which would be returned if not backed by a guarentee card. As the cost of providing these services is high, by making a charge in this way, members only pay for the services they use. There is no specific breakdown of the fees, but the amounts compare with those of other financial organisations. There is a standard fee for each unpaid item because our costs are the same regardless of the value of the item being returned.

 

It is your responsibility to ensure you have sufficient funds available to meet the payments you have authorised as they become due.

 

If you need further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me on xxxxxxxxxxx between 9.00am and 5.00pm, Monday to Friday.

 

Your Sincerely

 

Emma Kershaw

Customer Services Administrator

Branch Services Centre

 

______________________________________________________

 

What should my next action be? I am grateful and accept what they have offered but not as a settlement as the sum was £577.

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My advice to you is not to get involved in an argument with these people. Bear in mind that this lady probably can't authorise a full refund anyway. All you have to do is fill in the court claim forms and be done with it. Once they receive the summons you'll get your cash back. Just make sure you have an alternative account set up first.

 

In my experience there is absolutely nothing to be gained from arguing with them. Keep it simple, and don't back down. And remember, it's not a 'refund', you're demanding your own money back which they improperly took from you. Keep focussed on that, and you'll get your money back.

Robertxc v. Abbey - £3300 Settled in full

Robertxc v. Clydesdale - £750 Settled in full

Nationwide v. Robertxc - £2000 overdraft wiped out, Default removed by order of the sheriff

Robertxc v. Style Card - Default removed by order of the sheriff

Robertxc v. Abbey (1) - Data Protection Act action. £750 compensation

Robertxc v. Abbey (2) - Data Protection Act action. £2000 compensation, default removed

 

The opinions on this post are those of Robertxc and not necessarily the opinions of the group and do not constitute sound legal advice. You are advised to seek professional legal advice.

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Write to them and tell them that you do not accept that the cost of their srvices are as high as they clima them to be. That you require convincing evidence of this within 14 days failing which you will issue proceedings in the County Court for the full sum plus interest and without further notice.

 

You can add they they should understand that in court they will be put to proof of the true costs of unauthorised ovedrafts or of refusing cheques or direct debits.

 

Robert is dead right about not arguing but not backing down.

Just move on to the next step and then the next until they "get it".

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  • 2 weeks later...

ok well here are developments so far -

 

Because of other circumstances I wish not to divulge, my dad went in and paid £1000 to my overdraft with nationwide whom I had wrote to about the £577 charges I have had in past year. This left -£650 in my account and £125 charges pending (I am crap with money as you can see). I then cancelled all my direct debits as I am moving banks.

 

I phoned the woman up that dealth with my complaint but she was in a meeting apparently. The guy I spoke to was flustered, didnt know what tposay as i was taking charge. I said I had cancelled all my direct debits that afternoon and had paid the £1000 which was what I felt I owed them minus the unfair charges. I said that before I go to small claims court I would like a ban on withdrawls etc on my account as I do not want to be with Nationwide anymore.

 

He went away for ages and then came back and said they "will sort out the charges but you need to put all this in writing".

 

Any advice on what I should be saying in this letter? I dont want to piss them off but basically want to say that they can refund me the charges by reducing my overdraft as I have reduced it substantially already as a full and final offer.

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Thank u so much dave that gives me alot of confidence to proceed :D

 

I had a rough idea that what I did was putting me in the best position but I needed it confirmed!

 

Thank you everyone on this site that has helped me. Its not quite over yet so will update again.

 

I was in abad situation financially and felt the bank was controlling me, not other way around.

 

Much obliged.

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Here is my letter -

 

14/02/06

 

 

FIRST LETTER BEFORE ACTION - WITHOUT PREJUDICE

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: 24565919

 

I have recieved your response to my ongoing complaint regarding the unfair charges on my account in the last year, dated 31 January 2005. I am sorry to inform you that I cannot accept £80 refund on a balance of £577.

 

As I have said before, it is my opinion, and that of the Office of Fair Trading (OFT), that these charges are punitive in nature, not a genuine pre-estimate of cost and not intended to re-imburse your losses for a breach of contract occurring. Further to the 1999 Consumer Credit Regulations quoted by the OFT, there are numerous cases in law that prove that punitive charges in contracts are unenforceable at English law.

 

Murray v Leasureplay (2004)

Dunlop Tyre Company v New Garage and Motor Co. (1915)

Bridge v. Campbell Discount Co. Ltd. (1962)

 

Further to these cases, I also believe these charges to be a direct breach of the 1977 Unfair Terms (contracts) Act which require that contract terms be reasonable. I do not believe these charges are reasonable as outlined in the aforementioned act. In your letter dated 31 January 2005 you also admitted that you have no reasonable basis for your charges. I quote -

 

"As the cost of providing these services is high, by making a charge in this way, members only pay for the services they use. There is no specific breakdown of the fees, but the amounts compare with those of other financial organisations. There is a standard fee for each unpaid item because our costs are the same regardless of the value of the item being returned."

 

I must remind you that in a court you will be required to provide a complete breakdown of these charges. I do not accept that these charges are as high as you claim them to be.

 

Yesterday afternoon I respectfully returned to you £1000 that I believe I legally owed you from my authorized overdraft. I have also cancelled all my direct debits with a view to closing my account.

 

With this in mind, I respectfully request that you return to me ALL charges made on this account in the last 6 years and cancel all pending charges within 7 days of receipt of this letter - 21/02/06 - by clearing the remainder of my overdraft. I also respectfully request that you close my account.

 

If you choose not to do so, I will start proceedings for recovery in the County Courts, as I believe that legally I am entitled to this money back. By doing so, you will be eligible for my court costs and for an extra 8% APR as allowed by the County Courts Act (1984). You are not legally able to enforce these charges upon me and therefore I have no legal obligation to clear the remainder of this overdraft. In any case, as this 'debt' is in dispute you will not be able to pass it on to any outside agencies.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

Miss Julie Cameron

 

________________________________________________________

 

Im tempted to put in that their admittion will be going to the papers to get some confidentiality payment from the swines. Im sure they can afford it with their 3billion profit a year!!!

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As the cost of providing these services is high, by making a charge in this way, members only pay for the services they use. There is no specific breakdown of the fees, but the amounts compare with those of other financial organisations. There is a standard fee for each unpaid item because our costs are the same regardless of the value of the item being returned.

 

That says it all. "It's the same as all the others, Sir" - just like the school bully.

 

Well that's brilliant, because if its the same as all the others - then the admission of MacNamara (in the library - the ex CEO of LTSB) should be good enough for Nationwide too. :-)

 

Lol!!

 

Ah well ive been cheeky and added -

 

I am sure you are aware that all your customers in the general public would take great interest in this quote.

 

Shake them up a little muhaha.

 

I have sent it now on internet banking like last time. Got paper reply in 2 days last time I think.

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I used to have 2 accounts with Nationwide, both account were hundreds of pounds overdrawn entirely of penalty charges.

 

I rang to ask them to refund, they offered me a repayment plan.

 

Later in the conversation, it was offered that if I just closed the accounts, they would wipe the debts out.

 

So I did.

 

I think you have more luck with Nationwide in the first instance as I believe being a Building Society they are more likely to just back down rather than incur further costs which ultimately all members suffer for.

 

Good Luck

Just another 21 Banks to go......

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It would be Good News to me to take them to court too if I wasn't petrified!! I am a student, 19, and female and ickle and am afraid of the big bad bank!! :oops:

 

However, concidering the circumstances - the overdraft being charges and I have really got my money back by not paying it off can I not just leave the account in dispute and then if they want to take me to court I can challenge them?

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It would be Good News to me to take them to court too if I wasn't petrified!! I am a student, 19, and female and ickle and am afraid of the big bad bank!! :oops:

 

However, concidering the circumstances - the overdraft being charges and I have really got my money back by not paying it off can I not just leave the account in dispute and then if they want to take me to court I can challenge them?

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If they do this they will default you and come after you.

 

It's up to you. Maybe it's time you empowered yourself a bit

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If they do this they will default you and come after you.

 

It's up to you. Maybe it's time you empowered yourself a bit

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  • 2 months later...

I am about to go do the court stuff for against Nationwide for 750pounds. Recently they have been ignoring any letters I send them and even Charles Bacon

 

Today I got a letter saying that on the 30th May they are reducing my overdraft by a GRAND and so my account must be brought down by a grand by then or I will be charged 24.9% APR and unauthorized overdraft fees.

 

They say this is because my overdraft isn't being managed correctly, for example, I have exceeded my limit or had items unpaid. Basically because of what I am claiming against.

 

WTF!!

 

Is this legal? Does anyone have a copy of the terms and conditions to say if they can make me reduce my overdraft at such short notice for getting charges?

 

I am so worried! If I issue the summons on Monday does anyone know if the process of getting the money back will take beyond the 30th May?

 

If I just leave it and let them take ME to court for not paying it and then whoop out my charges defence ie they owe ME money would thsi work?

 

Could I get my charges back on the condition that it is a full and final payment on my overdraft?

 

Would going into the branch and showing them the letter then reminding them they owe ME so they can pay it if they so badly want to reduce my overdraft, work?

 

Please someone help!!! I am a student I cannot afford to repay a grand in 20 days!!!

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