Court date: 14th August 2007 (over £2,800 claim) - mikejames1 vs Barclays

[mikejames1]

Time for a new thread

 

Previous thread ( mikejames1 vs Barclays] )

 

Court date is on the 14th August 2007

 

Some notes from the letter I received from the court:

 

Each party shall deliver to every other party and to the court office all documents (including any experts’ report) on which he intends to rely at the hearing no later than 12 June 2007

In Barclays defence they stated that they had not received the breakdown of charges claiming for so have sent these to Barclays cc the court office ages back. Apart from this, that should be everything shouldn’t it? Or is this when I should have sent by court bundle before?

 

Other Directions:

 

The Defendant’s do file & serve skeleton arguments at least 21 days before the hearing

I presume Barclays will do this

 

The Claimant at liberty to reply at least 7 days before the hearing

Do I need to reply with anything at all?

 

The district judge has decided that this will go down small claims track with no mention if it’s just a directions hearing or not so I’m basically unsure what I should be doing now.

 

Help would be much appreciated. The date is getting very close & although I know it will almost definitely be stayed, I just want to do my part 100% so there's nothing to fall back on in future.

 

Cheers

[saintly_1]

Have you received anything at all from Barclays ?

 

If not the write to the court saying that they havent complied with directions and ask for their defence to be thrown out

 

Have a read of this post http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/108091-oft-banks-dont-panic-3.html#post1045633

[welshcakes]

Hi Mike

 

"Each party shall deliver to every other party and to the court office all documents (including any experts’ report) on which he intends to rely at the hearing no later than 12 June 2007"

 

This would, as it says, be everything that you want the court to see as evidience in your claim ie your court bundle, correspondence, an updated SOC etc.

If you haven't sent this in, then technically you can't rely on any of these things when it comes to the hearing. I would get them in sharpish otherwise you are going to have no case when it comes to the day. Hopefully, the court will simply add them to your file without noting that the date for filing is way overdue. worst case scenario is that reference to your evidence paperwork will be disallowed (ie not taken into account at the hearing).

 

 

"The Defendant’s do file & serve skeleton arguments at least 21 days before the hearing"

 

Well this should have been served by Barclays a week ago. If you have not been sent anything, then Barclays must rely soley on their original Defence and cannot introduce new evidence upon which to rely. There is no compulsion for them to have any new skeleton arguement (as their Defence doubles as one).

 

Sounds to me as if this hearing was intended to be a full trial hearing and I contact BLT quoting it as such. They may possibly be open to settle as they have missed all opportunity to submit any further case notes, probably an oversight or because they had intention to settle anyway.

[mikejames1]

sorry that's quite a lot to take in

 

so I will sort out my court bundle today & send that off in hope that they do not take notice of the 12th June date they supplied me with initially

 

otherwise I have my initial documents to stand by & full list of charges but the court bundle will be the winner I guess

 

just to confirm also, I have also let myself down with dates so I wouldn't have thought it be useful trying to get barclays defence thrown out or should I anyway?

 

welshcakes, many thanks for the responses. so do you think they may be open to settle? I had a response from teh Lit team saying they will most probably stay the hearing

[welshcakes]

Hi Mike

 

The crux of the Order is that Barclays haven't technically failed the Order in as much as they aren't compelled to rely on any more documents than they have already filed (ie their original defence). Furthermore, they can argue that the skeleton argument is one and the same as the Defence already filed so again they haven't failed to comply. In this respect, I don't see what grounds you have for asking to Strike Out their Defence (though I'm more than happy to be corrected on this point).

 

Get your Bundle in and also a copy to Barclays - with the Barclays copy, I think you can save on postage by handing it into your local branch as long as it's all self contained in a nice big envelope with Head Office's address on it. In the Barclays one, I would put a very brief covering letter making out that as you have not received reciprocal bundle back, you are supplying this copy bundle in the event that they have misplaced the first ... naughty I know, but it'll presume they received the bundle originally by the correct date!

 

Once you've sent all the paperwork you need to get in, wait til around 7th Aug and email BLT asking if they wish to settle.

 

If they're not forthcoming with an offer, you can turn up at court and try and blag that they have failed to provide any further paperwork so you believe it to be an abuse of system and their Defence has little chance of success at full trial.

 

Go through their Defence and see if they have got any details wrong as you may be able to get it thrown out on a technicality (and they have missed the opportunity to submit any amendemnts, corrections etc).

[mikejames1]

ok thank you

 

i will get my bundle sent off today or maybe tomorrow as some paperwork is at home (statements etc)

 

special delivery all the way & yes the covering letter thing sounds like a plan

[mikejames1]

hello again

 

after thinking about this last night

 

would it actually be a good idea for me just to leave this be until the court date as they will 99.999999% definitely stay my claim anyway?

 

they have the particulars of claim from me now and a full list of charges so I thought it may be a bad idea for me to try & fiddle the deadline a bit & send my court bundle in late as this could simply draw further interest to my case?

 

bottom line is that what I have provided is adaquate for the case, maybe not above & beyond but as it's gone to test case I should be OK shouldn't I?

 

Do you see what I mean by not trying to now send in something over deadline which doesn't "have" to be sent in?

[welshcakes]

Hi mike

 

I understand where you're coming from, that you're basically banking on a Stay that will allow your claim to be decided in line with the TC outome rather than it's own individual argument, which as it currently stands doesn't have a court bundle to rely on. I see the reasoning in that but it does depend entirely on the case being Stayed.

 

I think you need to ring up the court and identify what sort of hearing this is. If a Directions, then a Stay may be a good thing in your case. If this is full trial, the judge may be looking to conclude the matter rather than Stay.

 

It's a risk to weigh up but I guess if the bank/judge doesn't suggest a Stay, you could always ask for one yourself. A Stay will remove any hope you have of progressing or even negotiating until the TC has completed.

 

You could just take your bundle to court and play it by ear but if this is trial then the judge is going to wonder where all the paperwork is.

 

Tough call, I would myself slip the bundles into the system under the guise of "courtesy copies to accompany my updated Schedule of Charges" ... but this is your claim and you ultimately have to decide the best way to go on this.

[mikejames1]

I rang the court and they couldn't tell me what type of hearing it was as they can't go into that....??

 

The girld just said it's a small claims hearing!

[car2403]

Am I missing something here?

 

Firstly, the Judge has ordered the bundle to be sent and it hasn't been sent - you need to get this in ASAP and kiss the Courts feet to make sure they don't throw out your claim at this stage. Relying on Particulars of Claim and Statement of Charges only probably WON'T win this case at trial - the Judge can throw out your claim without supporting arguments as your POC won't justify a claim to start with.

 

Secondly, these Directions seem peculiar to me - usually they state the bundle must be served "at least 14 days before the hearing date". Something to consider, although it is a little naughty but it might save your case, is to prepare your bundle, etc, NOW and post it - you could always pre-date the covering letter sometime earlier this week and blame the delays in receipt on the Postal Strike. If questioned, you could say that you believed you had to submit 14 days beforehand and didn't get the 12 July deadline as a result. Considering the amount of lenancy being shown to the Banks, I would think this would satisfy the Court's order? (I could be wrong, though!)

 

As Welshcakes mentioned, this is your call, but I'd be pulling all the stops out to cover every eventuallity - including the Court not granting a Stay until the TC is complete, which they may not even do here.

[mikejames1]

Each party shall deliver to every other party and to the court office all documents (including any experts’ report) on which he intends to rely at the hearing no later than 12 June 2007

Yes the above is very strange I agree

I will get the bundle done as it doesn't take too long anyway & then maybe send to barclays & instead of sending, take to the court myself which is 5 minutes from here at work

[mikejames1]

From moving house 3 months ago I think I may have mislayed the original bundle of statements that was sent from barclays and all my workings were done from these.....................

 

Think everythings shafted

[welshcakes]

Hi Mike

 

Not completely a loss but certainly another set back to your bundle.

 

You've come this far so I think you need to plough on. What you will have to do is compile your bundle without the copy statements. They are an integral part of your evidence but unless Barclays specifically point out that the documentary proof of charges accuracy is missing, this may not be a problem.

 

Compile and take in you bundle to the court (and send to Barclays) anyway.

 

Separately today, ring up Barclays and request your SAR data again (banks are still under obligation to send this information as it is a legal obligation under the DPA and the OFT TC hasn't changed their duty to comply).

 

Don't mention that they've been mislaid, but intimate that you are still waiting for them (white lie I know but if they are under impression that it's an outstanding SAR request they'll agree to send without questions).

 

Make a note of the person you spoke to and when they said they would be delivered. Follow up with an email citing the phone call, who you spoke with and the time frame they gave. The objective is to at least have proof, should you need it, that you have made efforts to elicit the data from the Defendant and the ball is in their court if the information is still outstanding when you go to court.

 

Very good suggestion by Car to pre-date the covering letter. I would do the same for Barclays - use the same pre-date so everything matches.

 

If you do get hold of the charges list from Barclays in time, take 3 copies along to court. If you don't the judge may allow adjournement as you can prove the request was made to Barclays and they have failed to send in time. The onus would therefore revert to the Defendant to provide the data.

[mikejames1]

Many thanks again, would you suggest that I do not now add my initial request for the 6 years of statements because this would imply that I have received them?

[welshcakes]

Actually I would include your inital request along with a copy of the email you send today ... just because you made repeated requests, doesn't mean you received them does it?

 

I shall have to do some very good things today to karmically make up for giving ever so slightly 'lateral' advice on this thread.

[saintly_1]

I shall have to do some very good things today to karmically make up for giving every so slightly 'lateral' advice on this thread.

Im sure that this will be overlooked welshcakes dont forget god loves a tryer ;-)

[dar£n]

Send in a NEW SAR if you are sure they will not turn up in a tea chest somewhere.

You may be lucky and receive them in time for the hearing.

 

but at this point as suggested carry on and point the error out if it is noticed later.

[mikejames1]

haha, many thanks though

 

the bundle shouldn't take that long but me being me thought I had everything & since I moved out, it's all gone everywhere which is such a pain as I'm usually very organised!!! (honestly!)

[mikejames1]

just spoken to someone at Barclays & apparently since everything went mad they have taken around a million requests for archived information regarding old statements which is insane! i know the company I work for has trouble with archived information anyway & some past x years we don't even have to keep, imagine that's why it's up to 6 years!

 

anyway, they have put in a request as urgent however cannot prmise that I will get my statements, I did narrow it down to the from & to dates where I have charges in the hope it'll speed things up.

 

Now I'll just do the rest & also hope maybe I could find the statements at home anyway..... always a slim chance!!!

 

Good fun!

[saintly_1]

Look in the most unlikely places ;-)

[mikejames1]

will do!

 

can see it now

 

"barclays win first case against lad who simply didn't prepare" lol

[mikejames1]

FINAL QUESTION BEFORE BUNDLE GOES TO COURT:

 

It states on the COurt Bundle thread that I need the relevant T&C's.

 

I presume I just grab them & put them in and also reference them in the bundle?

 

Do I need current, or ones of reference over the periods??

[pjdavies2000]

whatever you've got really - but especially ones that relate to the time your account was opened if you have them!

 

They just need their own section, as thebank may ask you to prove the T&Cs.

 

Peter

[mikejames1]

hmmmm

 

The court closes at 4pm today, I'm at work with no T&C's......

 

Everything else is ready but I literally have to get this in topday before 4pm otherwise next week will be taking the mickey a little...

 

Will check through the T&C's thread but may need to shove anything in there.....

 

A bundle with no T&C's? Would that be bad news?

[pjdavies2000]

Not really, I think that defence was used once with success, there are several threads open on this and you may find your T&Cs are here somewhere - when was your account opened - if you say the magic 1996, I can email you a copy I have!