£50 fine for dropping cigarette end!

[Jase1982]

oh my god. that response was one I fully expected from people who frequent an internet forum.

 

so, my opinnion is tosh? ok, sorry. yes, you are of course completely right. my mistake......

 

I was talking about this case individually. not about your crusade.

 

If this person has been caught littering, and there is a fine for littering (unless I am mistaken), then pay it. To use the street name, or date, or any other technicality as an excuse would be immoral.

 

To be honest, an ADULT should have more common sense to dispose of ANY litter properly.

[kregrs]

oh my god. that response was one I fully expected from people who frequent an internet forum.

 

so, my opinnion is tosh? ok, sorry. yes, you are of course completely right. my mistake......

 

I was talking about this case individually. not about your crusade.

 

If this person has been caught littering, and there is a fine for littering (unless I am mistaken), then pay it. To use the street name, or date, or any other technicality as an excuse would be immoral.

 

To be honest, an ADULT should have more common sense to dispose of ANY litter properly.

 

I hope you use the same reasoning should you ever get a parking ticket etc.

[kregrs]

Well thats a very mature attitude isnt it moron there's nothing to stop you stubbing them out first is there or wait you could even try this brand new idea its called giving up!

 

So you think irs acceptable for smokers to be exempt from littering laws do you???

 

So says the man who just admitted to picking them up and throwing them back through a motorists window.

[GuidoT]

Can everyone keep it civil please.

 

There is no need to personally attack each other.

 

Stay on topic without insults, if you cannot do this then please do not post.

[splatrowe]

Utter tosh.

 

The law works both ways. Those enforcing it have to abide by the law also. If they cannot or will not then they are not in a position to enforce.

 

There is no moral imperative here, only a statutory one. If the land was policed based on moral grounds, then every time you crept over the speed limit, you should send off your £60 and licence for points, even if you aren't caught

 

It's clear that the point was that in 'Jase1982's opinion, it would be morally questionable to defend the dropping of a cigarette-end on a public street by citing a single letter mistake in the street name, or an unticked box.

 

In this particular situation regarding your response, I would like to point out that based upon your suggestion of totally immoral policing, Fred and Rose West could've gotten off had their address been taken down as Cramwell Road, instead of Cromwell Road.

 

Granted, that example is somewhat extreme, but the moral of the story is that this land is policed by people just like us who choose to enforce the law in a manner that is found acceptable by public and government standards.

 

All this means is that it is not just black and white out there and in conclusion, although it's caused some discussion on this board, the law (and its enforcement) has worked exactly the way it should do because I would bet on 'Jase1982's life that 'The Analyst' won't be dropping his fag butts on the street again soon.

[Weird Al Yankovic]

How can a fine of £50 be justified for what is, as litter, very minor?

 

There is no obstruction caused, one butt is hardly a blott on the landscape and probably not noticable unless you looked for it and it will waste away quickly by the elements.

 

Yet I imagine a black bag full of plastic would receive the same punishment if left as litter.

 

What happened to the punishment fitting the crime?

 

It's because smokers are regarded as lepers and a load of pc nonsense.

 

The law should be that the butt should be picked up by the user and put into a bin. Only if they refuse should a fine be levied.

 

This example of zero tolerance is completely unfair.

 

What next? 1 mile over 30? Fines for every car with a wheel on a pavement? Nil alcohol on breath where your cough medicine could lead you to lose your licence, job, home, etc

 

It's the rocky road and should never have been passed in this way.

[dave]

I have to say I am in agreement with the last post.

 

This is a very subtle way of creating a police state - yes, the argument may be that 'littering is littering', but to be honest, less people smoke now than ever before (%), and yet the streets are not littered with cr*p or fag buts. Refuse collection is down to fortnightly collection and yet (despite the flies) there are not bin bags all over the place.

 

Don't get me wrong, I abhor littering, but I do think a modicum of common sense could be used.

 

Smokers ARE persecuted now - and to what aim? The ban has buggered most pubs up - the 3 pubs in my village are now empty.

 

I think things need to be kept in perspective. We DO pay a lot of money to keep our streets cleaned. Does anyone thing that our council tax will be reduced if street cleaners are not employed any longer as their usefulness is void through no litter.

 

I very much doubt it.

 

PS. This is MY opinion and not one of this site.

[buzby]

And I'm not.... the fact it was a cigarette butt is immaterial. It could just as easily be a drink can, gum, sweet wrapper or whatever. Zero tolerance for smokers...? Don't think so, unless you want to lump in the rest. What of those towns that ban drinking on streets - why can't you have a swig from a can if your thirsty? Of course, it's only alcohol that's banned, but the principle is the same.

 

As for the punishment 'not fitting the crime', it does - how often have I sat in a queue at traffic lights to see the car in front of me tip a full ashtray onto the street? I've already been hit in the face with a lit butt when I overtook a parked car. So since dog walkers in Scotland are being pursued to pick up their mess (but not Horses) even if they 'perform' in the gutter where such responsible behaviour was tolerated for centuries - the message is clear, if you cause litter of any sort, you pay the price.

 

I doubt the issue has anything to do with the cost of collection - asking the offender to pick it up and dispose of it properly doesn't work, as there is no deterrent, do we need to shadow each smoker to remind them? Fining makes them think again, and unless they're really thick, they either get the message or waste more of their disposable income.

[Bookworm]

What next?.

 

1 mile over 30? Already happens.

Fines for every car with a wheel on a pavement? Already happens.

Nil alcohol on breath where your cough medicine could lead you to lose your licence, job, home, etc Already happens in safety critical jobs, or at least temporary suspension.

[Weird Al Yankovic]

I'm sorry to disagree Bookworm but I'm not aware of every 31 mph being prosecuted, every car with the slightest part of a tyre on a pavement being booked or of nil alchohol being for each and every one of us!

 

Buzby-

 

This is my point of zero tolerance-it would cause chaos and there would not be enough courts, staff, money etc to enforce.

 

So why is this policy ignored with a single cigarette butt? The offender is responsible for that single butt discarded not for all the butts on the streets-thus it's very minor.

 

Should one person be liable for everybody speeding?

 

The fact is that there are levels of tolerance to certain acts. The less serious is dealt with appropriately and the more serious more severe.

 

Was it Durkeim's 'Society of Saints' which can be interpreted in this scenario. A fag butt is litter so the next logical stage would be that fag ash would be litter in years to come as society becomes more of a police state.

 

Bank charges?

Your opinion would suggest that a 1p overlimit is as bad as a £100 one.

Just don't tell the banks of your reasoning! As I'm sure this is their's already!

[Zamzara]

Zero tolerance is a stupid and dangerous idea. There always has to be a limit where something becomes de minimis. Otherwise, you would have to pay a £50 fine for every hair that falls out or every piece of dust that drops away, or every crumb.

 

I'm not saying that a cigarette end cannot be litter, just that what is defined as litter and what is not is a judgement call that has to be made, and that the policy should be open, properly thought out, and consistent.

[buzby]

Buzby-Bank charges?

Your opinion would suggest that a 1p overlimit is as bad as a £100 one.

Just don't tell the banks of your reasoning! As I'm sure this is their's already!

 

Don't see how you can make that assertion. We're talking about littering. A bank will still charge you £30 for being 1p overlimit as they will for going £100. Are you seriously expecting the litter wardens will carry scales to weigh the offending butt and work out how much the fine should be? Since the 1950's kids were taught that littering is bad (remember The Wombles) there can be NOBODY that isn't aware of the anti social nature of what their doing, yet they do it. I always carried my sweet wrappers home to bin - so if I take responsibility for my actions, why can't the serial litterer?

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Buzby, I hope this is taken as debate & discussion and not as anything else. Just wanted to say that as I'm new here!

 

I agree that litter is annoying and quite disgusting. What I cannot agree with is the level of fine for what really is only very minor in our society.

 

I bet that certain criminal acts have gone all the way to court and conviction yet the fine will not be £50, especially for somebody on the dole.

 

How on earth can dropping a fag butt be justified at the level of £50 in the greater scheme of things in our country in this day and age of increasing violence?

 

I walk past my village police station each day and there are nearly always two police cars parked on the pavement due to narrow lanes and a small car park.

 

Work out for yourself the level of fines amassed in just my 7 years of living here.

 

Nothing will happen or has happened because they are police and parking on pavements is rarely enforced, in my part of the world anyway.

 

It's just tolerated and nobody says anything.

 

Yet if I again walked past the police station and flicked a fag butt I would most probably be issued with a fine!

 

But a mother with a pushchair will have to walk on the road around the police cars at a blind spot with a fairly busy road and my fag butt may have disappeared down a drain.

 

What should be most at issue here!?

 

Either everything is not tolerated or everything is.

 

Why single out something that, really, is quite insignificant?

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Don't see how you can make that assertion. We're talking about littering. A bank will still charge you £30 for being 1p overlimit as they will for going £100. Are you seriously expecting the litter wardens will carry scales to weigh the offending butt and work out how much the fine should be? Since the 1950's kids were taught that littering is bad (remember The Wombles) there can be NOBODY that isn't aware of the anti social nature of what their doing, yet they do it. I always carried my sweet wrappers home to bin - so if I take responsibility for my actions, why can't the serial litterer?

 

 

What I am trying to demonstrate is that a fag butt is seen just as bad as a black bag full of plastic, which I gather takes thousands of years to decay, as the fine would be the same.

 

Will I get the same punishment for avoiding £400 in tax or for £4,000000?

 

Litter is litter is the same as avoiding tax is avoiding tax, only it isn't.

 

Therefore, how can we be critical of a bank if they say ' 1p over is £100 over' because society seems to agree with that notion as per dropping a fag end v amounts of plastic?

[buzby]

It's a debate after all - but without a realistic fine, folk will not find littering a worthwhile deterrent. It is the ACT of so doing, not the side of the discarded item!

[Jase1982]

I am going to return to one of my original points and say that no one person should ever incur a fine because an adult should know not to litter. Doesn't matter whether it's a fag butt or a big plastic bag. litter is litter.

 

The fine is so high to deter people from ruining their respective city.

 

I do however agree that there should be a degree of common sense involved with the enforcing officer, but it's the law, and it's up to them how they individually enforce it.

[kennythecelt]

Can everyone keep it civil please.

 

There is no need to personally attack each other.

 

Stay on topic without insults, if you cannot do this then please do not post.

 

Good call...................

 

Why not pass the whacky about and lets all chill!! (only kidding and not seriously recommended!!)

 

Remember CAGS strength which is each and every one of us. That is our common bond. Keep focussed and lets be cheery and supportive of each other.

[Zamzara]

I am going to return to one of my original points and say that no one person should ever incur a fine because an adult should know not to litter. Doesn't matter whether it's a fag butt or a big plastic bag. litter is litter.

 

Actually I disagree. It's only quite recently that fag ends have been considered litter. Until a few years ago it was totally normal to put them out on the ground, the same way it is not considered litter to drop crumbs while eating a sandwich today.

 

This change in attitude is a good thing in my opinion as fag ends usually do stick around and accumulate, but as I said above it is a judgement call and not a purely factual matter.

[Weird Al Yankovic]

There appears to be no mitigating circumstances whatsoever.

 

As an ex-smoker, I'm sure others will agree, that there have been times where the fag has been smoked right near to the butt but(!) the fag then burns the finger and one will instinctively react and drop the fag on the floor.

 

As in the OP's actual case the Enforcement Officer will say I threw it on the floor as litter!

 

It really is the most ridiculous situation and, in my opinion, a joke.

 

What if this happened to a single mum with a baby and she is left with £10 or £20 to cope with after such a hefty fine?

 

It is incredible that this can happen in our democratic country in 2007.

[Akira181]

I'm not a smoker although I do have the occasional one with a drink but I see this fine to be a little out of order.

 

Even though they're "Litter Enforcement Officers" the only fines they seem to dish out are on fag ends. Why don't they find the teenagers that drop crisp packets and bottles and whatnot? Not only do they take longer to degrade, they're more of an eyesore and blow about the place.

 

What gets me with all of these fine giving wardens is that they get away with waiting outside pubs or train stations and watch for people dropping fag ends, especially in places where there's no bin without one of those ashtray's on top, as they work on commission iirc.

 

That said, it really ticks me off when people throw fags on the bin when there's a bin with an ashtray or fag box attached to a wall next to them. But when the pub doesn't have one of these outside, what are you expected to do?

 

One thing I've seen happen is when people don't use the ashtray on top of bins, they inadvertently set the bin on fire or that the ashtray gets so full, the wind just blows the majority of them onto the floor or into some passer-by.

 

Even though I don't smoke very often, the system annoys me and is a little flawed, but I see how it is needed. It wouldn't be so annoying if every fag and traffic warden you come across is so arrogant cause they're drunk on the little power they've been given

[buzby]

Even though they're "Litter Enforcement Officers" the only fines they seem to dish out are on fag ends. Why don't they find the teenagers that drop crisp packets and bottles and whatnot? Not only do they take longer to degrade, they're more of an eyesore and blow about the place.

 

They do. I just spend the morning following 2 of them in Sauchiehall Street earlier today. In 50 minutes they issued 8 tickets, all for littering - and it was all youngsters. Of the transgression I actually noticed, 3 were for throwing plastic bottles and fast-food cups onto the pedestrian precinct. In each case a litter bin was 10 metres away.

 

Can't help but feel they're doing the right thing...

[Weird Al Yankovic]

They do. I just spend the morning following 2 of them in Sauchiehall Street earlier today. In 50 minutes they issued 8 tickets, all for littering - and it was all youngsters. Of the transgression I actually noticed, 3 were for throwing plastic bottles and fast-food cups onto the pedestrian precinct. In each case a litter bin was 10 metres away.

 

Can't help but feel they're doing the right thing...

 

I'd agree with this too.

 

But I can't help but be of the opinion that it is a bit harsh concerning fag ends. I've heard that throwing a chip on the floor will also be subject to a fine.

It's like something out of Stalin's Russia.

[kregrs]

Just one question. These Litter Enforcement Gestapo Officers, what powers do they actually have?

[Trojan1401]

A further tax on smoking, simple as that.

 

Be aware - Big Brother is watching !

[Weird Al Yankovic]

A further tax on smoking, simple as that.

 

Be aware - Big Brother is watching !

 

I agree. First the motorist now the smoker. It's just harsh, no mitigation can take place and it's a revenue raiser.

 

C'mon, what do we need to tackle in our society first for such a draconian law to be in place? Someone flicking a fag away or an old lady being battered for her £60 pension?

 

Shame on the powers that be.