Robinson Way, NCO and Paypal Problems - Help!!!

[marktol]

Hi,

 

Im after some help from someone, I have a simular problem to many others on this forum it seems but I cant work out what would be the best solution for me? In February 2006 I sold a laptop on Ebay. The seller was based in italy and made payment to me via paypal. I shipped the laptop out after the money had arrived into my account, which I duley transfered to my bank account. A week later I had an email from paypal saying that the transaction had been reversed because the payment made was fraudulant and I owed the then £610.

 

I refused to pay the money back to paypal, it was not my fault and the transaction was completed in good faith (i thought) it seems that several other sellers were also done as well as me. Paypal said that because the seller was not verified (which you can only be if you live in the UK o US) I was not covered.

 

Eventually after hearing no more I receied a letter from NCO saying that they had pruchased the debit and I must pay or court action will be taken, same sort of stuff as everyone seems to have had. After the occasional phone call and card saying they will be poping in between 9 and 9 on tuesday to collect it went quiet. Ive now today received a letter from Robinson Way and Company saying that I owe them the money now (I assume they are part of the same company - no identification in the letter that its been passed from NCO). It also seems that the debit has now been reduced to 508.61, I beleive this may have happened when paypal converted the debt to USD, and its been since converted back by the debt collection companies?

 

Im getting a little tired of these letters and because I live at home (ive just completed my degree so at the time I was a student) its my parents that recieve the phone calls to the home number as well as very occasional calls to my mobile.

 

Ive really not heard much from them, nothing like what others seem to have epxerianced on here. Initially NCO bothered me for some semi regualrly, probably about 10 calls in 2 or 3 months?

 

Can anyone give me any advice or guidance of if there is anything I can do (other than pay up which im not in a position to do nor do I feel I sould have to). Ive tried to get the Itailan police to investigate the address it went to, the financial ombismeon didnt do a great deal and when I emailed trading standards I received no reply. The citzens advice beauro were unable to help as well.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Mark

[The Phantom]

I think the only way to get rid of it is to see if someone will take you to court for it or not and if yes, defend the case and see if the judge agrees with you or paypal.

However, the terms and conditions of paypal are quite clear and you agree to them when you sign up and use their services and it is very important to read all their terms for their seller protection policy. Some are unfulfillable for a seller when sending abroad. Paypal (for example) requires a shipping method that offers full online tracking with delivery confirmation to the verified buyer's address. You only get this service with couriers like UPS or TNT etc, not with Royal Mail. Which buyer would pay courier costs ? Most want it as cheaply as possibly and specifically require no insurance (and why should they, they can just reverse a payment anyway)

When selling high value goods (or anything really) one should never accept paypal as there are so many other no-risk payment methods for sellers, there is no need to gamble your money through paypal and pay their fees on top of this for the privilege. Paypal is only useful for buyers, not for sellers who shoulder risk and costs. Therefore simply do not offer it as a payment method.

I have not taken paypal on ebay for some time and it has made no difference for my sales or anything. If you have something people want they will use the payment method YOU stipulate. Be it a good old fashioned cheque, postal order or online direct bank transfer. Let your feedback be your reputation not the fact whether you take paypal or not.

If selling within the European community offer payment through IBAN BIC transfer. I have sold quite a few items to the continent and buyers have paid with no problem through this service. It is very common within the EURO zone as it is free between Eurozone member states. You need to check with your bank however, if they would charge you a conversion fee for an incoming payment in EURO. Natwest for example charges £7.- each time whilst HSBC charges nothing and just credits the amount in Pounds to your account. The Co-Op allegedly also charges nothing for an incoming Euro payment, but I haven't tested that myself yet.

So all you would cut out by not taking paypal is the overseas market.(USA/JAPAN/OZ etc)

The clear message is not to take paypal - especially for high value items.

If you think you are covered by their seller protection policy think again - you most likely are not.

Paypal is now also located in Luxembourg and not governed by the FSA anymore. So be more careful in future and let this be a warning to you:(

[IdaInFife]

I think phantom has said it all but I do except paypal and never had any problems with uk or overseas buyers but I do not have high value items. I do not think you have anything you can use to defend this. Did you contact your Internet fraud department at you local police station?

 

As phantom says anything you sell in future that has a high value maybe shouldn't except paypal but not much use to you at this moment.

 

Idax

[marktol]

Hi,

 

Thanks for your response, I have learned my lesson with paypal and only use it for low value items. I reported it to the police and they were unable (or unwlling) to do anything. I didnt know there would be an internet fraud dept that would cover me?

 

It seems the message is basically to leave it and hope that they dont actually decide to take me to court!

 

Thanks for you help, any more comments from anyoen is greatly received!

[IdaInFife]

I would go back to your local police station and ask for the internet fraud department. Take along of the any print outs you have of or can get (if less than 90 days of the auction end) of the auction, invoice and paypal payment. Give them all the details you have re address etc.

 

 

Paypal will eventually take you to court to reover costs but the only way you may have a slight chance in reinbursing yourself is persuing thru the police.

 

 

Can you pm me the buyers id?

 

 

idax

[IdaInFife]

or the item number ?

[marktol]

Hi,

 

Im afraid the item number does not exist anymore. It was in February 2006 the incodent occured. Also the ebay account was hijacked apparantly by someone. Hence why I thought it was a ljit sale. I emailed the embasy in Rome and also the Italian Embasy in the UK who both bounced the responsibility from each other to the point where I gave up in the end. Do you think they are likely to try and persue this all the way then? Ive not heard of anyone else who has actually been properly persued by paypal or the debt collection agencies?

 

Mark

[The Phantom]

I think the problem is the fact that it was a cross border incident with the other person being in Italy

If there is such a thing like an internet / online fraud department of the police I can imagine they will be totally snowed under with the amount of fraud (or perceived fraud) that goes on on ebay alone for Uk trade only. Impossible to quantify for international trade. How much effort will they invest into one incident ? It will be worth reporting it , in case there is a case history the Italian police can identify, but if there are only a few people or only person that have beenaffected they won't pour any substantial resources into it

[marktol]

Yes,

 

Neither side said they could do much, nor seemed to want to. It cant have been much to ask to get the Italian police to go to the address and retreive my laptop and arrest the person!

 

Oh well, I only hope I dont end up eventually footing the bill somehow for this crime!

[The Phantom]

PS: my mom who lives on the continent does a lot of buying on ebay (not ebay UK, a continental ebay site) and there was one incident where she paid for an item and did not receive it with the seller not making anymore contact.

My brother being a police officer advised her to report it to the police for fraud.

Value of incident: 11 Euro including postage

The police did take the report and logged it as fraud and pursued the seller.

However, they did say they do not appreciate it too much as it is a lot of paperwork and effort for little value

During their investigations however it transpired the seller (despite having an overall very good feedback on ebay) was well known to her local police as a small time crook with a long record and history, so in this case it added to this person's police record and it was worth the trouble reporting it.

If the other person had however been otherwise "clean" with nothing to mark her reputation or anything, nothing would have come of it and the matter would have been closed as being negligeable.

This was all a national incident though in the same country, not a cross border deal.

It all depends on the circumstances, so although it is always worth reporting things like this, don't expect a full blown investigation in all cases

[marktol]

no, I understand that, I have a few friends that are police officer's in this country and they both agreed that I would be doing well to get a resolution. I reported it as a crime and duly got a call from my local station but other than offer advice they were unable to help.

 

Thanks for your input anyway guys. I shall jut keep ignoring them untill one day (if) I get something more serious land on my door step!!

[The Phantom]

If that happens it may be worth talking to a solicitor.

Although paypal's terms are clear, I don't know if you could argue you fulfilled a contract taken out on ebay.

Someone bought your item, paid you for it, you shipped the item, all in good faith

Contract complete and paypal should not have credited money to your paypal account that is not cleared from the source.

So you had at no point reason to believe anything was suspicious until you had parted with the goods and it was too late.

(But paypal will argue they also acted in good faith and are acting in accordance with their ToS which you accepted) Difficult difficult

[marktol]

yes it is, but equally if you go into a shop and pay for something with a stolen credit card, the card company wont go back to the shop and ask for their money back, they will foot the bill. The shop cant then expect you to give the item you purchased back. Its part and parcel of being a retailer (or anyone who deals with money) a risk you take??

 

Paypal are just making the rules to suite. Its only because they offer an accout they can choose to take/ add money as they like, which to me is unreasonable.

 

Would there be any benefit to me sending a CCA that ive been reading about on this forum?

[The Phantom]

Paypal are just making the rules to suite. Its only because they offer an accout they can choose to take/ add money as they like, which to me is unreasonable.

Bingo ! And everybody who still uses their service subscribes to their way of thinking ==> so remember : do not use paypal !! Interestingly since moving to Luxembourg they have the status of a bank, so one would think your paypal account is now a bank account with appropriate rules. (For example HSBC/NatWest/RBS etc can't just reverse a debit card payment if it suits them can they ?) Something to think about ?

Would there be any benefit to me sending a CCA that ive been reading about on this forum?

That only works for credit agreements regulated under the Consumer Credit Act, doubt that applies to Paypal affairs to be honest. Not sure though, should say so on their website. But they didn't agree a credit agreement with you, they just took money off you somebody else took off them and pursuing you now for non payment

[marktol]

yes thats right, which is why its even more annoying because youd think they dont have a leg to stand on! There in lies the problem, their company, their train set they make their rules, which shouldnt be alaoud. But it seems they can and have and will continue to get away with it!

 

Thanks for your input, im just going to have to ignore them, hopefully they will lose interest, they havent been very persistant, this communication today is the first in months, hence how I found this forum, I looked at the time but was unable to find anything usefull! I keep forgetting about it!

 

Thanks again,

 

Mark

[landscaper]

my story is a bit different i started getting letters from robinson way for a paypal debt of £1,550. when i rang them all the info they gave me was it refferd to a email address i had used for paypal and the account was used to commit fraud. i have never heard of the email address they gave me and said they must be writing to the wrong person. they did give my name and d.o.b as being correct now they are ringing me a couple of times a week and sending letters. they have adviced me to contact paypal which i have tried on a few occastions but trying to get through to them is like trying to get the popes autograph. does anyone have any suggestions as this is driving me mad. i have checked my credit files to see if anything was wrong there or if anyone has been using my identity but all is fine. why are they chasing me for this debt when its nothing to do with me.

 

regards

[The Phantom]

Somehow the e-mail address must have been registered against a paypal account associated with you , hence they are pursuing you

Have you checked your paypal account/s to see if this e-mail address has at some point been added to it ?

If not, you need to ask paypal for more proof or evidence

If you suspect fraudulent activity with your paypal account you need to inform paypal and also get advice from a solicitor if you can find one that specialises in internet / online law. Most will offer a free initial consultation

Usually the police doesn't want to know in cases like this, but it may also be worth your time to make a official report / complaint with the police

As it is a considerable amount of money you need to stay on the case here

and make it clear to paypal in writing that you dispute this

[landscaper]

the email address that paypal are giving belonged to someone who registerd it in blackpool they say they account was run as normal for 2 years untill it started with fraudulant activity. i have explained to robinson way that i have never lived in blackpool they where a bit sympathetic but are still ringing me a few times a week for payment. i have checked on paypal and this email address has never been added to my account so dont really know whats going on as robinson way say get in touch with paypal but that seems a endless course after sending 2 emails with no reply and spending 20 mins a time waiting for them to answer the phone.

[The Phantom]

Things like this can be a nightmare

You should seek urgent legal advice , either with the Citizen Advice Bureau

or a solicitor that specialises in internet / online law to safeguard your interests

As I said most solicitors will offer a free initial consultation

Have a look through your local yellow pages

[landscaper]

thanks very much for your help