Corporate V Lloyds TSB

[Robmids]

Hi Folks.

 

This is my first time doing one of these things but I feel I need the help. I recently managed to recalim nearly £1k from Lloyds TSB on my private account, just prior going down the court route.

 

Simultaneously, under separate cover I did the same series of letters from MSE.Com for my business account. Thats not worked so far. I have got court action pending through HMCS Online service and Lloyds have gone as far to provide a defence. This means it will go to trial. I will go but I need to know what information to take with me.

 

Lloyds are claiming that Business accounts run differently to personal accounts and are not covered under the Consumer Credict Act, 1999. I dont agree, not that I have checked lawfully but in my case, precedent has been set in that they gave me back on my private account.

 

Any legal wizards out there able to help me?

 

They have asked for a formal plea and evidence. I wrote to their solicitor with the facts but the HMCS Online service didn't ask for evidence. I hope that I will have a chance to do that in court ? Please, anyone who can see the way this might go, get in touch - email is best.

 

I cant afford to lose the account for reasons I can explain but am adamant that I am right. is there anyone prepared to fund an appeal court trial for me ? or take it to Westminster because if the Bank is right, then the law needs to be changed - cash is cash, customers are customers and they way Banks deal with them is the same. All should be treated equally.

 

Over to you. And it would help me if when replying you might provide some credentials.

 

regards

 

Rob

[Parkvale]

Robmids, The bank are quite right. You cannot use the Consumer Credit Act if you are claiming on a business account Claiming as a business is the same process as claiming for a personal account - the main difference is you cannot rely on consumer law. I have just successfully claimed back £25,000 on my business account. Where are you at with your claim ? If i am right you have submitted your claim through MCOL. and i am presuming they have submitted a defence. Correct ? What have you put on your POC. Particulars of claim ? If we are to help you.You must clarify further what you have submitted to the bank for your claim. Have a look trough this:http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/64975-business-claims-basic-guide.html and start a thread in the Lloyds forum. Where it will be easier to follow and help you with your claim. Good luck and click on link: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/

[Robmids]

Thanks Parkvale. I will do as recommended. £25K ? wow, thats a great result, I am only looking st £1k but its still our cash! I don't know if this reply is to you or viewable to others the do I detect some rivalry betweeen this site and MSE.Com ? If so, its very silly. It was Martyn on the telly that got me thinking last October and via the template's I started in december claiming and was successful on my personal account for a goodly sum so I cant really say which site is better. I can only comment so far that MSE is easier to navigate.

 

Anyway, is there any means of email swops so we can get on with the case ? I will look at the links later and see what I can find. It seems quite a minefield.

 

By the way, yes, I applied via HMCS Online service and submitted all the information they required. It only asked how much I wanted to claim, how much interest and the lawful reason why I was claiming. Thats as far as I got. lloyds filed the acknowledgement on the 13th day after being served and filed a defence on the 27th day. Their solicitors wrote to ask for evidence and a plea, I sent them copies of all the letters I had written, interest calculations and a breakdown of the charges since 2002. (when the acounts were opened). Now they have filed a defence I guess I have to wait for a hearing date and in which court that will be. I trust it will be HMCS that will inform me.

 

Once I know that, that's when I need to know what I need to present to the court.

 

Rob

[Robmids]

Hi Guys

 

Tried the links you sent but to no avail - have no choice but to mail you this way

 

The state of affairs at the moment is

 

I applied via the MCOL to get my charges back from Lloyds TSB (Business Account

They acknowledged within 14 days and filed a defence within 28 days

 

]The case has been moved from Northampton to Leicester County Court

MCOL did not ask for me to enter a plea other than the basic details of why I am claiming

 

Lloyds have (naturally) responded that this case cannot be tried under the Consumer Credit Act or the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contratcs Regulations

 

I received a letter today from Northampton County Court to the following: "Before District Judge Murdoch, without hearing, it is ordered that:- the filing of an allocation questionnaire be dispensed with in this case unless the District Judge at the court of transfer orders otherwise" (an allocation fee may be payable in this instance)

Either party affected by this order may under rule 3.3(5) apply to have it set aside, varied or stayed. Such party must apply under rule 23.3 within 14 days of service of this order

 

The order is dated 21st June

 

 

]Can you please advise what to do next ?

 

I am minded to contact leicester County Court with a "home made" plea and ask under section 23.3 to do something but I dont understand the statement

 

Is it now too late to enter a full plea ? I would like at least one period in court to argue my case. However, I could also contact the Bank direct and say, 80% in full and final settlement or I go to court

]

 

What do you advise

 

Feel free to email or whatever. I have tried to enter the Lloyds forum but it wouldnt let me in so help! PLease

[Mamie]

Hi sorry cant be of much help here but hopefully someone will come and help you soon. Try this link

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/

[Robmids]

Hi Guys.

 

 

Tried the links you sent but to no avail - have no choice but to mail you this way.

 

 

The state of affairs at the moment is:

 

 

I applied via the MCOL to get my charges back from Lloyds TSB (Business Account)

 

They acknowledged within 14 days and filed a defence within 28.

 

The case has been moved from Northampton to Leicester County Court.

 

MCOL did not ask for me to enter a plea other than the basic details of why I am claiming.

 

Lloyds have (naturally) responded that this case cannot be tried under the Consumer Credit Act or the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contratcs Regulations.

 

I received a letter today from Northampton County Court to the following: "Before District Judge Murdoch, without hearing, it is ordered that:- the filing of an allocation questionnaire be dispensed with in this case inless the District Judge at the court of transfer orders otherwise" (an allocation fee may be payable in this instance)

 

Either party affected by this order may under rule 3.3(5) apply to have it set aside, varied or stayed. Such party must apply under rule 23.3 within 14 days of service of this order.

 

The order is dated 21st June.

 

 

Can you please advise what to do next ?

 

 

I am minded to contact leicester County Court with a "home made" plea and ask under section 23.3 to do something but I dont understand the statement.

 

 

Is it now too late to enter a full plea ? I would like at least one period in court to argue my case. However, I could also contact the Bank direct and say, 80% in full and final settlement or I go to court.

 

 

What do you advise?

 

 

regards

 

 

RobMids

[nicsussex]

Any chance you could reformat this - finding it very hard to read

[MARTIN3030]

Welcome to the site.

The consumer credit act does not apply in Business claims.In fact I am not clear as to what you mean at all.

We have a business claims section you should read it.

Can you post more details in a thread of your own in the bank section ?

My feeling is that you may have to ammend your particulars of claim using an N244 asking for this.

Business claims are different in that you rely on different points of law and previous precedents.

You have the benefit of these being set previously in a high court but need to apply them to your case otherwise you will fail miserably.

Call the Court and find out if an AQ fee is payable dont get caught out with this.

Although dispensation has been directed the fee may still be required do this as a matter of urgency !

 

 

I am moving your thread to Lloyds with a request for help.

[Robmids]

Hi All.

I think I am in the right place now. Martin3030, if you read this you can now help me further?

 

State of play so far: Applied online via HMCS, lloyds filed a defence within the time frame required, the case has now been transferred to my local - Leicester County Court.

 

The Judge in Northampton recommended that the allocation questionnaire be dispensed with unless the leicester Judge wants it. I can apply to have this set aside, stayed or varied but only till tomorrow. Not that I understand any of those terms.

 

Now, from you guys I seem to have filed my plea under the consumer credit act and not some other ? and need to fill in a N244? If someone would like to take me by the hand on this as its now at a stage where it not about the money, but Lloyds laughing at me. But to be honest, I really find this site difficult to navigate so help would be appreciated.

 

Email is cool., just need to be pointed in the right direction.

 

Rob

[nicsussex]

Perfectly standard for AQ to be dispensed with - so no worries there. You have obviously file the POC for a consumer claim on a business account and clearly consumer regulations do not apply to business accounts. Would be useful to know what the Lloyds defence said.

 

Have a look at amending your claim here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/47344-claim-too-vague-defence.html

[Robmids]

Thanks for that. lloyds defence says that the claim is insuffiently pleaded and reserves the right for the claim to be struck out or amend the defence or to require further particulars to be provided.

 

Then loads of usual banking blurb, then para 7: It is denied that the Unfair Contract Terms Act or the Unfair Tems in Consumer Rights regulations apply to business customers who are not contracting as customers as required by the Act and the Regulations"

Interestingly, para 8 states: Without Predjudice to matters pleaded in para7 it is averred that the charges are fair and resonable and it is denied that they are unlawful.

Para 9: Without predjudice to any other pleading in this defence it is not admitted that the sum claimed for charges and interest is incorrect.

 

Now, why those 2 para's without Predjudice ?

 

It concluded by saying that the charges are for services and not damages o a penalty. The bank is entitled by contract to impose the charges which are fair and reasonable.

 

They just paid out £1000 on my private account so that last statement must be a contradiction!

 

I will go and have a look at your other link now.

 

Rob

[frenchconnection]

Hiya and welcome, I too am claiming for a business account and made the same mistake quoting the consumer credit act. However Lloyds defence did not point this out strangely enough?. You can see the full defence on my thread to see if it is similar. Anyway I was advised to leave it and wait for a court date. Instead i received an order from the court to send in a new POC (Particulars of claim) and detailed schedule. I have just done this last week. Not sure if you should ammend im sure the guys on here will point you in the right direction. Their advice is brilliant. In the meantime this section may be of help to you Business Claims - basic guide

[Robmids]

Thanks French. I am totally honest, I really don't know what to do now. So, if anyone can help in this, would be appreciated. Have downloaded the Applination Notice N244 on advice but not sure why I need to do it. When I understand why, then I can move on. I wish someone had pointed out a year ago that there was a differnce between personal and business tho - to me money is money, banks are banks - we, business or personal, are all consumers and should be treated the same

[frenchconnection]

Exactly!! anyway you are in the right place Theres loads of people on here who know exactly what to do. Most have full time jobs so you will get the help you need when they finish work and log on. They have really helped me. Sorry i cant be of further help to you.

 

good luck!

[Robmids]

Thanks for the support. In the meantime, gonna complete the forms first while I wait for someone to tell me under which law/Act I am supposed to be claiming on business banking charges and what to put in my POC

[nicsussex]

Might be worth having a look here for your poc

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/64975-business-claims-basic-guide.html

[Robmids]

In other words, can someone tell me which Act I am supposed to be claiming under and why ?

[Robmids]

sorry, I didnt see that last post - will have a look. Thanks

[frenchconnection]

Rob look at the business claim guide line that i and nicsusex have gave you the bit 3/4 way down starts N1 the particulars of claim is there for a business and it states the correct act there:)

[Robmids]

Hi

 

Can someone let me have Lloyds Registered Office address please -I keep using my local branch but thats not good enough for the court claim form

 

Thanks

 

Rob

[nicsussex]

Have a look here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/236-lloyds-tsb-contact-details.html

[Robmids]

Your'e too good Nic.

BTW, hav you thought about this, I am now sending an N1 along with an N244 - is this me re-applying for the case? Do I have to pay the £120 again ?

[GuidoT]

It is post 4 in Nicsuccex's link above.

 

I do not see any reason why you would want to file an N244 (Application Notice) at this stage. The N1 will do fine, I take it you are aware of these:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/faqs-please-read-these/25457-guide-reclaiming-bank-charges.html

[nicsussex]

As i recall there is another thread about this - best to keep to one then people like Guido will be able to help much more

[Robmids]

Ok, well guys, as I sent my original claim under the guise of a personal account, what do i do, just send the N244 and the £35?