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Private Parking - from the other side


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Guest perky88

Hi all,

Before I start, I must say I think sites like this are useful as a general guide - however I have been reading the threads about private parking issues and some people seem to be taking the advice as a legal guide.

 

I speak from the other side, I have 2 coffee shops and experienced big problems with people just parking on my land (to which I pay considerable rent/rates and maintenance for) and then using other shops without ever coming into my shop.

 

I did consider clamping/towing, but chose ticketing as the best way forward.

 

I used a company locally and after approx 12months, seeing them in action and reading website about their 'over jelous' wardens decided to setup my own company (I can hear you all swearing now) to issue parking tickets on my 2 sites and from there it has grown.

 

I completey understand people getting annoyed by getting a ticket, then seeing 1 small sign some 50ft away .. this is not legal, this is not correct and something I would not condone in any way and agree it should be fought all the way.

 

However, on my sites I over put signs - when a car is ticketed, at least 3 pics are taken showing the ticket on and the signs in view etc...

 

We use contract law (rather than trespass law which states nominal .. not negligable) could be claimed, but this was too vague.

 

Our signs clearly state land is for permit holders, that any person not displaying a permit is contractually agreeing to pay a parking charge of £xx that needs to be paid within xx days or it will increase.

 

The signs also state do not park here unless you agree to the contractual charges.

 

The signs are clear, self explinatory ... however people still ignore them and think they can park.

 

A "Parking charge" is attached to the vehicle as it states on the signs - I donot use the word 'fine' and we donot employ debt collectors .. if someone disagrees with it, we pay the £30 court costs and ALWAYS send it to the county court.

 

As a company, if I have photogrpahs showing the vehicle and sign clearly .. WE ALWAYS ENFORCE VIA THE COURT SYSTEM ..

 

I agree, that if a defendant lives miles away we end up losing in terms of cost .. but we have only lost 1 case to date and this was a technicality.

 

We abide by the BPA (British Parking Assocation) in terms of their charges/signage requirements etc...

 

I have read about other companies and they way the operate ... I am not saying we are the only one that does .. and I am sure many others do.

 

I have had many letters sent arguing about parking charges, some of them are EXACT replicas from this site ...

 

If a person decides to park on CLEARLY DESIGNATED PRIVATE LAND, next to a sign then why should they think they should not pay ??

 

Do they think land owners pay rent/rates/maintence for non customers to use, so when the land owner comes to park .. no space is available ??? Is this right ?

 

Would people prefer to be clamped ?? I think ticketing is fairer, less confrontational ? and in many cases ticketing is cheaper for the offender than clamping.

 

I have taken many cases to court, and I can assure people that Judges take a very dim view of 'internet lawyers' or '£6.99 get out of parking ticket book purchasers' quoting laws and regulations.

 

People use sites like this and go into court and fall down at the first hurdle pretendnding to be rumpole of the bailey etc...

 

Judges (small claim) take a view on signage/evidence provided .. and this is the main thing - I agree totally if 1 sign is located for 200 spaces, hidden behind a tree then you should appeal .. but parked next to the sign and ticketed .. come on .. you should just say fair cop and stop bleating on.

 

 

Anyway .. just my 2p worth from the other side of the fence.

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Guest Expressit

I totally agree with what you have said. I have said it before and will say it again, people have to accept that they can't just park anywhere they like for free and expect to get away with it. Well done perky88.

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But how do you find the driver - the only person who can enter into your implied contract.

 

The registered keeper has not entered into such a contract and cannot be liable simply by virtue of being RK. The RK is not obliged to inform you of the identity of the driver.

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Guest perky88

Pat,

 

Like in your other posts, you seem to miss the point.

 

I was merely stating the case from the landowner viewpoint - of course there will be people out there who try and abuse the system and catch motorists out at every opportunity.

 

BUT there are people out there who just want their car park to be for them .. as they pay for it and not for any ****** to park in because they think they are smart and donot want to pay 30p to park in the local NCP or similar.

 

I can only speak from experience (real experience .. not text book/internet based).

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I'm not missing any point. I am asking a simple question.

 

You state that you are taking people to Court, how do you determine who the driver is - who allegedly entered into your contract? The only person who could possibly be a defendant.

 

It's a simple question; please answer it.

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Perky, by reading this post you are contractually agreeing to pay me £50. Your name and address will be requested from your ISP. I am operating in line with guidelines. If you do not agree to the contractual charges please do not read this post. :)

Post by me are intended as a discussion of the issues involved, as these are of general interest to me and others on the forum. Although it is hoped such discussion will be of use to readers, before exposing yourself to risk of loss you should not rely on any principles discussed without confirming the situation with a qualified person.

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I have taken many cases to court, and I can assure people that Judges take a very dim view of 'internet lawyers' or '£6.99 get out of parking ticket book purchasers' quoting laws and regulations.

 

 

I'm willing to make a pretty safe bet that the amount of cases in which the defendant has actually turned up in court and lost against you is zero. Greedy people like you seem to think you are above the law. These so-called 'civil-contracts' where nothing is signed in writing are a load of rubbish and on the fringes of [problem]-artistry. In any case, how would you prove somebody actually read your sign before parking in your car park?

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I'm not missing any point. I am asking a simple question.

 

You state that you are taking people to Court, how do you determine who the driver is - who allegedly entered into your contract? The only person who could possibly be a defendant.

 

It's a simple question; please answer it.

There only simple if you know the answer.

 

Like all the claims of taking numerous people to Court yet no evidence of any Judgements

PUTTING IT IN WRITING & KEEPING COPIES IS A MUST FOR SUCCESS

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Guest louis wu
I'm not missing any point.

 

I think if the OP says your missing the point...then you are. It is their point after all (unless you believe it to be irrelevant of course)

 

 

I am asking a simple question.

 

Which is okay, but your still missing the OP's point.

 

 

Greedy people like you seem to think you are above the law.

 

looks like they are just looking out for their business, bit of a personal attack. The OP states that they go through the court sytem and let a judge decide, doesn't sound 'above the law' to me.

 

 

Can I ask what you would do if people parked on your private land continually? Would you just shrug your shoulders and say fair enough, or would you do something about it? If the answer is the later, then perhaps it would be worth letting the OP know what it is so they can change their current way of dealing with it.

 

So, rather than turning this thread into something you want to talk about, why not give OP some practicle advice on the problem, or is the situation described to be expected and is just tough luck.

 

louis

 

just so you don't waste your time, I am not interested in how do you determine who the driver is, just the OP's predicament.

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I can understand the OP's point about parking on your land in front of a coffee shop or something similar, with a few bays etc, can be annoying. I would say that a lot of posts on here are regarding so called 'private parking' problems at superstores, colleges, hospitals, BP garages etc, where the driver has been to the relevant place, is spending their hard earned cash on the premises and then finds a ticket because they have been too long in the shop, and then then even though they can prove they have been there, the ticket isn't cancelled, which is scandolous.

 

I would like to see the outcome of your court cases etc. I in now way condone parking in private car parks without paying the necessary parking fee or not using the establishment, but when an error or unjust ticketing occurs it must be stood up to.

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I can see both sides, here... I live in a road where the landowner has given a clamping company carte blanche to do whatever the hell they like, including clamping residents vehicles!

 

Whilst I would like parking to be controlled more effectively, so my road isn't used as an overflow from the university car park, I want a system which doesn't place any undue burden or stress on ME (or other residents) and which has a proper, indepdendent appeals / review - something you WON'T get from a money-driven private ticketing / clamping company who are operating only on the vague fringe of 'law' anyway.

 

I'm not suggesting that controlling parking on private land is illegal - of course not - but I would look for a system that:

 

1) kept a proper list of authorised vehicles, uptodate and accessible remotely by 'parking attendants' and didn't rely on silly permits

 

2) had a clear way to pre-authorise visitors / delivery drivers / hire cars etc to avoid the risk of clamping

 

3) had a cast iron 'appeals' process which, if you returned and found your car had WRONGLY been clamped, would immediately release it without charge

 

Contract law is way too vague to be used for private ticketing. I feel (having read up extensively) that trespass is the only way forward. In order to get someone to pay, you have to clamp them. Tickets are far too easily wriggled out of. Rightly or wrongly I know exactly how to avoid paying a private ticket, and would never do so...

 

The problem with clamping is that it is used incorrectly, and on vehicles which haven't broken any rules (such as what happened with me). Instead of immediate release and no charge, it was a 6 week fight with the landowner to prove that I was authorised to park there, the end result was I had to pay £125 for 6 weeks, then fight to get it refunded.

 

So that's how I would 'solve' the OP's predicament.

 

If you don't want to clamp (and I don't blame you, its a generally bad idea all round to be honest), make it impossible for them to leave without depositing a token.

 

For me, the only car parks which work properly are the ones where you take a ticket and pay on exit, or pay on foot. P&D is rubbish, and private car parks even worse.

 

The OP could have a machine installed with a barrier on entry and exit. Cars could freely enter, but ONLY exit if someone put in a token. The OP keeps stack of said tokens in his til. Patrons request a token when buying their coffee and use it on exit. Simple as that.

 

Of course this wouldn't work on my road, but would work on a smallish enclosed space.

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So now tell me - if my car is parked outside my shop, presumably you have some way of contacting the driver, not just the registered keeper? Granted, they may often be the same person, but you won't know that unless you test it in court, producing video/photo evidence of the driver, complete with matching it against the known RK. If the RK has no obligation to even answer your question about whether he/she was driving, it would be a big gamble to take something like that before a judge...

 

Besides, I'm struggling to see how a 'contract' is formed. There is consideration from you (providing a parking space) but no consideration from the driver.

 

Furthermore, your sign is an invitation to treat. What if the driver held up a big sign, straight at your CCTV, as he entered the car park (prior to parking, ie prior to any contract being 'agreed') saying "I am not entering into a contract by parking here..." and attached a notice to his car saying the same. Or a sign saying "By reading this notice, you allow me to park here for free..." - The first 2 would obviously put your 'contract' into dispute as it would be difficult to show (even with consideration) that any contract had been formed. The latter may not work, as you it could be judged that the prior contract takes precedence and cannot be altered by the notice in the window... but I guess it could be worded such that it makes a new contract, and that by reading his sign, you are contracted to allow him to park for free.

 

Either way, it puts enough 'doubt' into the equation as to fundamentally undermine the whole 'contract' side of things... No?

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  • 3 months later...

You know what?

 

If these tickets were £5-£10 I wouldn't fall out with them. That seems almost fair. Not a reflection of real loss but enough to make people think that its a slap on thw wrist for being naughty and breaching a contract.

 

The fact is they're £70 and upwards and extortionate. These schemes are no more about parking control than I am about air traffic control. Its about making money through ignorance. There is no honour in that and while you claim only to have lost once, anyone could say that. Your cases are set dead against the principles of contract law and so I find your position very difficult to believe.

 

P

Litigation –

 

Lloyds TSB – Won (x2)

Barclays – Won

Abbey – Won

Welcome Finance – Won

Capital One – Won

AS Securi-T (as an advisor) – Won (x2)

 

Barclaycard – Ongoing

Lloyds TSB Credit Card – Ongoing

Experian – Ongoing

Ebay - Ongoing

Barclays (DPA issues) - Ongoing

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You know what?

 

If these tickets were £5-£10 I wouldn't fall out with them. That seems almost fair. Not a reflection of real loss but enough to make people think that its a slap on thw wrist for being naughty and breaching a contract.

 

The fact is they're £70 and upwards and extortionate. These schemes are no more about parking control than I am about air traffic control. Its about making money through ignorance. There is no honour in that and while you claim only to have lost once, anyone could say that. Your cases are set dead against the principles of contract law and so I find your position very difficult to believe.

 

P

 

 

With Parking costing £2.50 or more per hour in most parts of London a £10 penalty would be pointless. Even if the penatly was the same as the total cost of parking for the day unless you got caught everyday you would be quids in and not bother paying.Why do you think that penatly fares on trains/buses are £20+ when the fare is often only a few pounds? Simply because based on the chances of getting caught if the penalty is the same as the cost people would take the risk.

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With Parking costing £2.50 or more per hour in most parts of London a £10 penalty would be pointless. Even if the penatly was the same as the total cost of parking for the day unless you got caught everyday you would be quids in and not bother paying.Why do you think that penatly fares on trains/buses are £20+ when the fare is often only a few pounds? Simply because based on the chances of getting caught if the penalty is the same as the cost people would take the risk.

 

 

PENALTIES on trains/buses/decrim parking are imposed as a result of statute, private companies and individuals do not have the benefit of statute mainly due

to the fact that we live in a democracy and it sort of overules the democratic process if one person thinks they can demand a penalty for some assumed transgression of their self written law. i.e. You decide that you want to impose some bizzare form of religious law in your car park, the PENALTY for parking there is that you have your right hand cut off.

 

Now don't go screaming that it's a stupid comparison, remember that it's only a matter of degrees of seperation, a PENALTY is a PENALTY even the BPA acknowledge that the term is not to be used.

 

If someone wants to claim/charge restitution for the amount of money they have actualy/potentially lost then I nor anyone else can argue with that it's the law and backed up with precedent. After all the cornerstone of consumer rights is good law fairly applied IMO.

All posts by myself are without prejudice and do not constitue legal advice, they are purely for the discussion of points of law and consumer rights.

I am however not affiliated in any way shape or form with any financial institution or parking company. And if i am elected I will make it mandatory that all persons posting on this forum make such a declaration just so we can all see who the trolls are :-)

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PENALTIES on trains/buses/decrim parking are imposed as a result of statute, private companies and individuals do not have the benefit of statute mainly due

to the fact that we live in a democracy and it sort of overules the democratic process if one person thinks they can demand a penalty for some assumed transgression of their self written law. i.e. You decide that you want to impose some bizzare form of religious law in your car park, the PENALTY for parking there is that you have your right hand cut off.

 

Now don't go screaming that it's a stupid comparison, remember that it's only a matter of degrees of seperation, a PENALTY is a PENALTY even the BPA acknowledge that the term is not to be used.

 

If someone wants to claim/charge restitution for the amount of money they have actualy/potentially lost then I nor anyone else can argue with that it's the law and backed up with precedent. After all the cornerstone of consumer rights is good law fairly applied IMO.

 

 

Sorry the word 'Penalty' upsets you the word 'charge' can be used instead. If the sign says parking without a permit costs £70 a day then the car park owner is entitled to collect it in my opinion. If I went out to eat and ate a meal costing £30 on the menu, should I be entitled to just leave the cost of the food and claim I never read the menu or do we all need to sign a contract at the start of the meal?

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When you enter a restaurant you enter into a contact mutually with the owner, he contracts to supply you with food of the quality and standard of service you would reasonably expect for the location and price quoted.

 

If the food is not of the quality you could reasonably expect or if you have an issue which you feel invalidates the contract then you have the right to advise the other party to the contract of this and their recourse is in civil law.

 

They do not as a rule write to the owner of the car you arrived in to demand payment, they may call the police ,however if you are not making off without payment but disputing a contractural issue then it's nothing to do with them really. Well unless the restaurant owner produces a good approximation of an arrest warrant and tells you that if you don't pay then you'll really be in trouble, even though the idiots just tried to charge you 70 quid for egg and chips. then they'll have him under S40.

 

next

All posts by myself are without prejudice and do not constitue legal advice, they are purely for the discussion of points of law and consumer rights.

I am however not affiliated in any way shape or form with any financial institution or parking company. And if i am elected I will make it mandatory that all persons posting on this forum make such a declaration just so we can all see who the trolls are :-)

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Equating having a meal in a restaurant with a parking charge is totally fatuous. When you go into a restaurant, you look at the menu. This is an offer. You order the food. This is acceptance. You receive the food. This is consideration. You then pay for the food that you ordered and accepted.

 

These elements are almost entirely missing in a typical private parking case. All the driver has done is park. Has he accepted the contract? In some cases he has not even seen the signs. Has he by his conduct in parking accepted a contract whereby he (he being the registered keeper, not the driver) accepts an obligation to pay a penalty charge? Extremely difficult to make a case for this and any properly defended case will be decided in the motorists favour, despite all the bluff and bluster the private parking apologists can summon up.

 

Does the restaurant include a contract condition saying that if you enter the restaurant, look over the menu and change your mind and leave you can receive a charge of £70 for breach of contract? Does the restaurant invoice not the diner but the diner's parents on the basis that the diner is an agent for his parents? I don't think so.

 

Green and mean, why do all your posts support perky? Why are you on a consumer action group website when all your posts are anti consumer, in this area anyway? What is your personal interest in the matter?

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Equating having a meal in a restaurant with a parking charge is totally fatuous. When you go into a restaurant, you look at the menu. This is an offer. You order the food. This is acceptance. You receive the food. This is consideration. You then pay for the food that you ordered and accepted.

 

These elements are almost entirely missing in a typical private parking case. All the driver has done is park. Has he accepted the contract? In some cases he has not even seen the signs. Has he by his conduct in parking accepted a contract whereby he (he being the registered keeper, not the driver) accepts an obligation to pay a penalty charge? Extremely difficult to make a case for this and any properly defended case will be decided in the motorists favour, despite all the bluff and bluster the private parking apologists can summon up.

 

Does the restaurant include a contract condition saying that if you enter the restaurant, look over the menu and change your mind and leave you can receive a charge of £70 for breach of contract? Does the restaurant invoice not the diner but the diner's parents on the basis that the diner is an agent for his parents? I don't think so.

 

Green and mean, why do all your posts support perky? Why are you on a consumer action group website when all your posts are anti consumer, in this area anyway? What is your personal interest in the matter?

 

I wasn't supporting anyone? Just disagreeing with your view and that of your other pipepoo friends does not mean I am siding with Perky. I agree the registered owner is not by law liable for any costs involved with parking on private land but that does not mean that a land owner or agent, in my opion (it is after all a free country!) should not be able to charge whatever they deem fit to park on what is after all their land.

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It's the law that says they "cannot deem what is fit"

 

Unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations 1999

 

Thats always assuming it is a charge and not a penalty for breach

and that the contract satisfied the premis for being a valid contract

in the first instance

All posts by myself are without prejudice and do not constitue legal advice, they are purely for the discussion of points of law and consumer rights.

I am however not affiliated in any way shape or form with any financial institution or parking company. And if i am elected I will make it mandatory that all persons posting on this forum make such a declaration just so we can all see who the trolls are :-)

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It's the law that says they "cannot deem what is fit"

 

Unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations 1999

 

Thats always assuming it is a charge and not a penalty for breach

and that the contract satisfied the premis for being a valid contract

in the first instance

 

 

Where in the regulations does it say I cannot charge £100 a day to park in my drive?

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Where in the regulations does it say I cannot charge £100 a day to park in my drive?

 

You can charge what you like, but it's the issue of penalties that is in dispute here.

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You can charge what you like, but it's the issue of penalties that is in dispute here.

 

 

I didn't mention penalties I said a Land owner should be able to charge what they deemed fit for parking on their land. Muggerbee said that was against the law not me?

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Guest interesting

If you wish to park your vehicle at Birmingham Airport - outside the terminal in the drop off area and leave it for 6hrs, it will cost you £52.00

 

If you leave it for 24hrs it will cost £214.

 

The signs clearly state the charges on the entrance and around the car park ... I choose to leave it there and then have to pay on exit, If I dont have the money to pay then NCP will invoice me (I suppose).

 

Can I state this is an unfair contract term ?? £214 to stay on PRIVATE LAND at the airport compared to a PPC parking charge of £60 for 24hrs ????

 

I had the option to park in that carpark or somewhere else, by leaving my car in that carpark I have accepted the terms/conditions and charges. I chose to accept the terms, if I did not want to accept them I would have parked somewhere else.

 

If you wish to confirm the costs, goto Birmingham International Airport - Flights, Airport Car Parking and Information and click on "New Vehicle Access and Parking Arrangements".

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I didn't mention penalties I said a Land owner should be able to charge what they deemed fit for parking on their land. Muggerbee said that was against the law not me?

 

In which of Muggerbee's posts did he/she say that?

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