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Babble vs Cabot/Monument

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Hi Everyone

This is the first of three cca's with cabot.

They bought an alleged debt from monument and decided to pursue me for it.

I sent a cca request which they received on 9th May 2007.

Therefore they defaulted on 25th May and breached on 25th June 2007.

I've received the standard letters from them as seen on others posts.

However I also received a letter from a peter anderson thanking me for my payment (the £1 statutory fee) and requesting me to contact them regarding payments and that interest would accrue on the account etc etc.

On 26th June I received two letters from our good friend Emma Robertson (she's very busy). One of which enclosed statements 'as requested under cca 1974. We are still waiting for a copy of the application form....'

The statements supplied did not show the full statement of account as requested because there was a difference between the last statement and what cabot are claiming.

The second letter contained an application form and requested that I contact them.

So not only have they supplied what they think are the correct documents after they have broken the law but neither item correctly fulfills the requirements of the cca request.

Can anyone give me advice on the form of the letter to send to them. I understand writing a letter with the word complaint at the top should pique their interest! I read somewhere else that the FOS etc won't entertain you unless you have complained to cabot (or whoever) first.

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How about this for a letter?

 

Cabot financial (Europe) ltd

10 Kings Hill Avenue

West mailing

Kent

ME19 4LT

 

Dear Ms Robertson

 

Re: my request under s78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me dated 21st June 2007, the contents of which are noted. However, the reply received by me does not fulfil your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter, dated 26th April 2007. Upon receipt of the original request the specified account legally entered into disputed status.

 

My request remains outstanding. An application form does not constitute a true copy of a credit agreement and that which you sent doesn't even contain all the prescribed terms and is not 'properly executed'. The statements sent do not correspond to the amount stated in your earliest correspondence and therefore they do not satisfy the requirement to supply me with a statement of account.

 

As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

 

You had until 25th May 2007 to provide me with the true copy I requested. After that date you entered into default of my request. Whilst the account is in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agencies (or any third party).

 

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the data subject to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

 

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. Any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office.

 

The time limits, which are laid down in the Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 are clear. You must supply an executed credit agreement within 12 working days of a proper CCA request. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request the account enters a default situation and if you fail to comply after a further 30 days you commit an offence. You entered into a default on 25th May 2007 and subsequently committed a criminal offence on 25th June 2007.

 

Therefore you have 7 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint, otherwise your conduct will be reported to the Office of Fair Trading, the Financial Ombudsman and Trading Standards. Any investigation undertaken by them may affect your ability to offer credit in the future.

 

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Should you not have any signed credit agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me.

 

I look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

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That al looks fine. A question or two though?

 

Did any of their letters state that they did not have to comply with the CCA?

 

And would you be able to scan the letter from Emma saying she has supplied to statements as per the CCA request? That sounds like they have admitted they CCA DOES apply to them.

 

And as they have accepted your £1 fee, they have admitted so also. Never mind what the Nice Mr Peter THOUGHT it was for. ;)

 

Your doing good. You just need to play another waiting game. Cabot's own complaint's procedures state that you should get a reply to your initial complaint within 10 working days.

 

In fact, just add in to your letter. "Please consider this an official complaint, and provide me with a copy of your Company's procedures." That gets around your 7 day limit, as how are you supposed to know what limit they themselves have set? They SHOULD furnish you with a copy anyway on first contact from them, but never do.

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In fact, just add in to your letter. "Please consider this an official complaint, and provide me with a copy of your Company's procedures." That gets around your 7 day limit, as how are you supposed to know what limit they themselves have set? They SHOULD furnish you with a copy anyway on first contact from them, but never do.

 

Excellent advice...

 

Also, don't forget to add the immortal line; I do not acknowledge any debt to your company.


Just hate every DCA out there

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Hi Seahorse,

It's through brief reading of your posts and Elizabeth1 pointing out where to look for cabot info that I've managed to put that letter together. I wish I had the time and patience to read all of the cabot posts and correspond with cabot along similar lines. I do so love it when people try to be clever, especially with legal arguaments, and hang them selves.

 

Anyway, I don't have a scanner but I'll see if I can get some of the letters scanned at work. If not I'll try to photograph them tomorrow when I have some time. Dear Emma said the statements were requested under the cca request so as far as I'm concerned they are admitting that they are bound by the cca 1974.

 

I also don't know if you noticed the address I used - this is the company registered address. I used that because I don't like using PO boxes as I think it's a good way for a company to make sure they don't receive mail or come up with some excuse.

 

I will make the amendments to the letter and send it out later this week by recorded to see what response I get. I do have two other cabot 'accounts' so I think it will be interesting. I might send virtually the same letter to all three and see if the responses are different. One thing that I haven't told cabot though is that I started a dispute with monument even before the credit card went over it's limit because I tried to reclaim charges. This was never resolved and so they shouldn't have continued adding interest or charges etc let alone sell it.

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Intentional ornot, it does sound as if our Emma has dropped a clanger. It will be good to see if she tries to retract the staement somehow.

 

And regaring the dispute with monument, I'd leave off mentioning it until you write to refute completely their assertion that they have any right to collect on that one.

 

At this rate, CAG HQ had better watch they don't get a jeep through the door laden with petrol and gas canisters. I wonder if any Cabot employees are feeling particularly suicidal? ;)

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Hi Seahorse

Not only will you see that Emma has stated that this is in response to the cca request but she also goes on to say that she is sending me the application form! I can't say I ever asked for an application form.

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I can't seem to get the image to show large enough to read easily. I'll email it to you if you want it.

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Forgot to ask - should I substitute the bit about complaints procedure for the paragraph where I have stated 7 days or do I just add your words at the top or bottom?

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Maybe just change the "7 days" to "10 working days" and add the complaints bit to the bottom.

 

Your pics are fine. I should be able to enlarge and still be readable.

 

Can I use it as evidence if I ever get as far as court?

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How about this:

 

Cabot financial (Europe) ltd

10 Kings Hill Avenue

West mailing

Kent

ME19 4LT

 

Dear Ms Robertson

 

Re: my request under s78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me dated 21st June 2007, the contents of which are noted. However, the reply received by me does not fulfil your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter, dated 26th April 2007. Upon receipt of the original request the specified account legally entered into disputed status.

 

My request remains outstanding. An application form does not constitute a true copy of a credit agreement and that which you sent doesn't even contain all the prescribed terms and is not 'properly executed'. The statements sent do not correspond to the amount stated in your earliest correspondence and therefore they do not satisfy the requirement to supply me with a statement of account.

 

As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

 

You had until 25th May 2007 to provide me with the true copy I requested. After that date you entered into default of my request. Whilst the account is in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agencies (or any third party).

 

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the data subject to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

 

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. Any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office.

 

The time limits, which are laid down in the Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 are clear. You must supply an executed credit agreement within 12 working days of a proper CCA request. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request the account enters a default situation and if you fail to comply after a further 30 days you commit an offence. You entered into a default on 25th May 2007 and subsequently committed a criminal offence on 25th June 2007.

 

Please consider this an official complaint, and provide me with a copy of your Company's complaints procedures. You have 7 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter, otherwise your conduct will be reported to the Office of Fair Trading, the Financial Ombudsman and Trading Standards. Any investigation undertaken by them may affect your ability to offer credit in the future.

 

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Should you not have any signed credit agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me.

 

I look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

I like the 7 day thing because it's something all these companies love to do, although they usually say 7 days from the date of this letter and wait a day before sending it out by 2nd class post. That way you receive it with only a day or two left and start to panic (or so they hope)! I think giving them a week from the receipt date shows that I'm giving them a reasonable amount of time and that they can't quibble on the date because it will be recorded. If they don't take it seriously enough to reply within 7 days; even just to say lets discuss this further, then they deserve to be reported to the bodies mentioned. I may amend it to 14 days though but I'm not sure.

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Seahorse

Do you want me to email you the original photo I took without the black bits on. Obviously this would be for your use only in a court situation (or other as long as I know beforehand).

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Yes, I agree. These type of companies do like to give you seven days to respond (even when I'm at sea for 6 weeks at a time :mad: ), so leave it in. I think that will be OK, as until you get a copy of their complaints procedure, that will be enough.

 

I think the pic I have now from you will be OK, as just the fact that it has Emma's signature (from an image file, but it's stil hers) will be OK I think. I wouldn't want to pass on your details to anyone, ESPECIALLY Cabot's solicitors. If it came to them disputing the letter, they could be made to disclose it in court anyway. Although they'd probaly use the same tired old excuse of not actually keeping copies of letters, as copies of their templates will do. As if.

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My old favourite from dca's is the old 'despite repeated requests....' used on the first letter. I just love to have fun with them. I got one today from a dca acting for egg credit cards, they haven't bothered to contact me in two years. As with all the others though, no agreement means can't pass on my details so they've broken the law. The debt's approx £600 but I'm sure I can cause them to lose more than that - isn't it £400 just for the FOS to investigate a complaint?

 

Anyway, I will give them 7 days from the day of receipt, I think thats enough. If cabot are reading these posts they'll realise it's me soon enough anyway when they get virtually the same letter three times. So if you do need a copy let me know and I'll gladly supply it. I don't want to post it here because if anyone but me uses it I want it to be a nice surprise for them...not unlike christmas.

Anyway, off to bed for me. I had a quick look at your myspace page, please accept my condolences for your loss its always sad when you lose a good friend.

David & Family

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Hi Seahorse, et al

It's been a while but cabot have finally tried upping the ante.

I've just received a letter off them responding to my complaint with the usual twaddle as seen in most of your posts seahorse. They are now doing the 'we don't have to follow the cca 1974' rubbish although if this is the case for some reason they've included some statements and also application forms!

Anyway they all defaulted and breached some time ago and as far as I'm concerned this is not a satisfactory response to my complaints.

 

Therefore I have penned a little letter for your perusal whcih I'm going to send to them, as follows:

Address

 

Address

 

Date

Ref:

Your ref:

 

Dear

Thank you for your recent correspondence dated.......

Unfortunately it appears that you have not paid even the slightest attention to my previous correspondence to you. I stated that I would not enter a debate into this matter only the resolution and you have decided to ignore this.

I will inform you that I am a member of the Consumer Action Group and have witnessed your attempts to deter others from the legal pathway by misquoting the law. It is quite explicit in law that a creditor; even one that has purchased an alleged debt, is liable to the rights AND responsibilities of those said debts under the consumer credit act 1974. Your attempts to persuade people that you can pick and choose what aspects of the law apply to you is desperate. Additionally I also have correspondence from your organisation acknowledging my request under the consumer credit act 1974 and willingness to comply, therefore an attempt now to try to persuade me that this is not the case will not be viewed favourably by a court of law.

I feel this is a reaction to the fact that you have been formally notified that in all three cases you have not only defaulted on the legitimate CCA 1974 requests but have broken the law and committed a criminal offence. I am sure that you are aware of the penalties in relation to this.

Further to this the information that you have now provided me with does not satisfy any of the requirements laid down in the consumer credit act 1974. I would go further to point out that the application froms that you have sent in an attempt to persuade me that a valid agreement exists is yet another example of you trying to comply, belatedly, with the cca 1974 request. However it has been pointed out on more than one occasion that an application form does NOT constitute an agreement. Even if those forms complied fully with what is expected of an agreement; which they do not, they are APPLICATION FORMS and as such are NOT an EXECUTABLE AGREEMENT. Even in the most basic forms of law an agreement does not take place at this point in a contract and can not take place at this point as it can not be antecendant to the offer or acceptance. Maybe you should brush up with the basics of offer and acceptance in contract law before you send items such as this out pertaining to be agreements.

Therefore I will inform you that as you have made no attempt to resolve my complaints I will be taking this forward to the regulatory authorities on the 1st Sept 2007 for them to action.

Yours babble.

 

Do any of you have any comments on this as it's just a rough draft right now and secondly who do I now complain to?

Trading Standards?

FOS?

OFT?

ICO?

and does anyone out there have any template letters or rough drafts to send to the aforementioned organisations?

I am tempted to write both to the FOS and TS regarding the matter in general and also the ICO regarding illegal data use and sharing.

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I will inform you that I am a member of the Consumer Action Group ...and supported by The Cabot Fan Club.....

 

Let them know who also is behind you, they are petrified of The Consumer Action Group ... I can't print what they feel about The Cabot Fan Club, we are in their bones...:D and they know EXACTLY what we do... don't you Ken?


Cabot and the Cabot Fan Club Threads:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/73598-dealing-cabot-101-cabot.html

 

Legal Actions Explained for Businesses:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/20492-legal-actions-explained-company.html

 

Payplan CCCS Advice:

http://consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/getting-out-debt/128587-info-cccs-payplan-experiences.html?highlight=Payplan

 

How to use the Forum

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-consumer-forums/107001-how-do-i-dummies.html

 

A click on the scales below is appreciated if my posts were helpful

Do not regard my postings or suggestions as professional advice. If in doubt seek a professional opinion.

 

PLEASE DONATE IF SUCCESSFUL - Every little helps :)

 

PLEASE, Do not Private Message me with basic questions, start your own thread and PM a link if you wish, but I will not be able to respond to all individual questions as I am very busy on numerous other things and anyway, others cannot learn from PM's. It also stifles contributions from the vast talent base this site offers from it's contributors and I'm not all that clever really! :D Thank you.

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Hi Andrew1

 

Well I did give them the option of writing back the balance of each of the alleged debts to zero etc etc and no more action would be taken.

 

It appears that they want me to rip all of their arguaments to pieces, get them some nice debts of their own (three complaints to the FOS at £400 each plus three breaches at £2500 each to start), and then take some money off them for the absolute distress they've caused me and the harm they've caused to my good name by illegal data sharing.

 

I think a minimum of £1000 per breach of the data protection act should suffice. In the case of one of the alleged debts they sent it to one debt collector who also had a solicitor send me a letter and when I destroyed them cabot got another debt collector who also had a solicitor send a letter out - so a nice £4000 minimum for that!

 

I have seen your pm and I will answer that in greater detail later although the long and the short of it is - I think a quick letter to cabot as above followed by all the stuff (including those mentioned in your pm) that is pertinent to the TS and FOS. When cabot get approached for three separate complaints by both the TS and FOS armed with all the information available I'm hoping that there might be the equivalent of a small thermonuclear explosion in kens undergarments!

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In addition I'm also mindful of the fact that if cabot or any other alleged creditor commit an offence under the CCA 1974 then you have to report it within 6 months of the offence happening otherwise it is set aside - which is why I think cabot are spending so much time on this correspondence game of theirs. I think they are trying to run the clock down.

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You wrote > However it has been pointed out on more than one occasion that an application form does NOT constitute an agreement...

 

Why not add in; "how many more losing court cases will you shoulder before you realise this?"


Just hate every DCA out there

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Hi pmhcfc

Has there been any court cases where this has happened yet? If there is a precedent which shows that an application form was not acceptable as an agreement then that would be useful to us all.

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Blutack won on the no CCA = No Enforcable debt. Elizabeth1 has been in court and Cabot tried to pretend an application form would do. The judge disagreed and told them to come back in 8 weeks with an actual agreement.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

HAHAHAHA

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Babble, if the application form DOESN'T contain all of the prescribed terms then it is unenforceable.

 

 

 

S61(1)(a) CCA provides that, for a regulated agreement to be properly executed, it must contain all the prescribed terms of the agreement and conform to regulations under s60(1) – see Q1.14.

 

Reg 6(1) provides that the terms specified in Sch 6 to the Agreements Regulations are ‘prescribed terms’ for the purposes of s61(1)(a) and s127(3) – see Q8.2.

 

8.2 What if prescribed terms are missing or incorrect?

 

s127(3) provides that the court may not make an enforcement order unless a document containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor – see Q1.21.

 

If therefore any of the prescribed terms is missing, or incorrect, the agreement is not enforceable against the debtor, and the court is precluded from making an enforcement order.

 

 

8.3 What are the prescribed terms?

 

The prescribed terms specified in Sch 6 are as follows:

 

* amount of credit – see Q8.

 

* credit limit – see Q8.5

* repayments – see Q8.9.

* rate of interest – see Q8.6

 

Sch 6 was not amended by the 2004 Regulations.

 

 

Also check out Peter Bard's excellent thread on the subject: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/103383-agreement-enforceability.html

 

Now you want a precedent then look no further than another of the Wilson cases.

This case concerns an agreement that didn't contain all of the prescribed terms.

House of Lords - Wilson and others v. Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Appellant)


Be VERY careful whose advice you listen too

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Hi Everyone

 

Cabot have gone strangely quiet recently, has have most of the others - all of whom have defaulted and committed an offence.

 

Any ideas who I should report them all to first:

OFT

DTi

FSA

FOS

TS

 

Regards

Babble

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Hi Everyone

 

Cabot have gone strangely quiet recently, has have most of the others - all of whom have defaulted and committed an offence.

 

Any ideas who I should report them all to first:

OFT

DTi

FSA

FOS

TS

 

Regards

Babble

 

All of the above :D


Cabot and the Cabot Fan Club Threads:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/73598-dealing-cabot-101-cabot.html

 

Legal Actions Explained for Businesses:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/20492-legal-actions-explained-company.html

 

Payplan CCCS Advice:

http://consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/getting-out-debt/128587-info-cccs-payplan-experiences.html?highlight=Payplan

 

How to use the Forum

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-consumer-forums/107001-how-do-i-dummies.html

 

A click on the scales below is appreciated if my posts were helpful

Do not regard my postings or suggestions as professional advice. If in doubt seek a professional opinion.

 

PLEASE DONATE IF SUCCESSFUL - Every little helps :)

 

PLEASE, Do not Private Message me with basic questions, start your own thread and PM a link if you wish, but I will not be able to respond to all individual questions as I am very busy on numerous other things and anyway, others cannot learn from PM's. It also stifles contributions from the vast talent base this site offers from it's contributors and I'm not all that clever really! :D Thank you.

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