Sent out 6 CCA Letters and all the creditors have now committed an offence...

[Vonsworld]

Hello,

 

A few weeks ago I sent out 6 CCA letters to my credit card companies, and not one of them has (yet) responded by producing a true copy of the original agreement under CCA 1974.

 

They are now all over the 12+30 day limit and have therefore committed a criminal offence under the act.

 

I sent them this reminder letter...

 

Please refer to s78 (6) of the CCA 1974. You are in default of the act and therefore not entitled to enforce the agreement.

 

Furthermore since your default has lasted more than one month, you have also committed an offence under the CCA 1974.

 

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defense to any court claim that is issued.

 

You are also reminded that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not, under section 189 of the CCA 1974.

 

If you are unable to satisfy my request under s78 (1) of the CCA, may I suggest that you treat the outstanding balance of the account as discharged and the credit agreement as ended.

 

If you persist in trying to collect this debt I will raise the above issues with Trading Standards and the FSA.

 

This seems to have thrown the cat amoungst the pigeons!

 

NatWest wrote back and said they could not at this time produce the necessary paperwork, and therefore had decided to discharge the debt and regarded the credit agreement as ended.

 

Newman DCA (acting for Amex) from whom I have received many (often threating letters) in the past, wrote to say they do not wish to deal with me any more and have returned my file to Amex!

 

3 out of the 6 creditors have remained silent, and there is still no sign of any CCA copy agreements.

 

Please advise me if there is anything else I should be doing right now to strengthen my case further?

 

I have only sent them a CCA letter, is there any point in following that up with a Subject Access Request Letter, or should I save that for when/if they decide to take me to court?

 

Perhaps I should send another reminder in a week or so?

 

Your advice would be much appreciated,

 

Best wishes

 

John

 

 

[PriorityOne]

There is absolutely no need for you to send out reminder letters. You have made a legal request for information and if they can't comply, then it's their problem and not yours. If they don't have a CCA for you, then then don't get your money . No CCA = no enforceable debt.

 

Make sure that you keep hold of all correspondence received by anybody, just in case they do decide to play dirty and sell your accounts on to somewhere else.... and if you get any harrassment from anyone whilst they are in default of your request.... come back on here for advice on how to deal with it.

[Vonsworld]

Thanks for your advice on my previous post, much appreciated.

 

CitiFinancial, who are in default, have now replied to my CCA request with the following letter as detailed below.

 

 

 

We regret to inform you that section 78 CCA 1974 does not require CitiFinancial to provide you with a copy of the executed agreement as you appear to believe. It requires CitiFinancial to provide you with a “copy of the executed agreement” as defined by the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.

 

The obligation to provide you with that document is fulfilled by the provision of the terms and conditions, which are supplied to customers upon reissue or issue of their card, being printed on the card carrier. We enclose a copy of the terms and conditions for your account. This is an industry standard document and conforms with the regulations.

 

The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 make it clear at eg 3 that the “copy executed agreement” is not required to be an exact replica of the original per se but an extract since it is allowed to omit certain information including and signature box, signature, or date of signature.

I’m sure someone will have received this type of response before and so please could you advise me on a suitable reply.

 

The text of their letter may be correct, but am I not right in thinking that in Court they would have to produce a full copy of the original signed agreement, with signature, without which the agreement would be unenforceable. It may be ok to send me a copy of the terms and conditions at the moment, but those documents would not be acceptable in court?

 

NatWest in response to the same CCA request, responded by admitting they could not find the necessary documentation to satisfy my request, and had therefore decided to discharge the debt and regarded the credit agreement as ended. Based on that response I feel sure that CitiFinancial are just trying to confuse the issue?

 

Look forward to hearing your opinions

 

Best wishes

 

John

[ODC]

We regret to inform you that section 78 CCA 1974 does not require CitiFinancial to provide you with a copy of the executed agreement as you appear to believe. It requires CitiFinancial to provide you with a “copy of the executed agreement” as defined by the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.

 

The obligation to provide you with that document is fulfilled by the provision of the terms and conditions, which are supplied to customers upon reissue or issue of their card, being printed on the card carrier. We enclose a copy of the terms and conditions for your account. This is an industry standard document and conforms with the regulations.

 

The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 make it clear at eg 3 that the “copy executed agreement” is not required to be an exact replica of the original per se but an extract since it is allowed to omit certain information including and signature box, signature, or date of signature.

 

 

I have read this response over and over again. I think its another bit of doublespeak from the masters of spin. You are making a lawful request under the 1974 CCA. They have failed to produce a copy of the executed document. They would cerrtainly need this to enforce the debt. Send a complaint to TS and Demand a copy of ****tibanks Complaints procedure. Do be put off by them.

[PriorityOne]

The text of their letter may be correct, but am I not right in thinking that in Court they would have to produce a full copy of the original signed agreement, with signature, without which the agreement would be unenforceable. It may be ok to send me a copy of the terms and conditions at the moment, but those documents would not be acceptable in court?

 

 

Exactly right. :grin: They haven't got it, so have sent you a copy of what it would have looked like if they had. Although it might comply with the Cancellations blah they mention.... without your signature and theirs, it's as good as bog roll in court.

[ODC]

Exactly right. :grin: They haven't got it, so have sent you a copy of what it would have looked like if they had. Although it might comply with the Cancellations blah they mention.... without your signature and theirs, it's as good as bog roll in court.

 

Simple fact is as always No CCA = No Enforcable Debt regardless of whatever bumph they write.

 

As usual they are all Our Soles

[Vonsworld]

Thanks for your responses, fingers crossed they don't have the original agreement!

 

Although they have now sent me a copy of their terms and conditions, which they argue satisfies my CCA S78 (1) request, by the time these were received they were well over the 12+30 day limit and so had committed offence.

 

Can they now take me to court whenever they wish, or given their offence under the act, would they first need to seek the courts permission before instigating proceedings? (I seem to remember reading this somewhere, but am not sure)

 

Have a good weekend everyone, I'll keep you posted on events

[tomterm8]

Thanks for your responses, fingers crossed they don't have the original agreement!

 

Although they have now sent me a copy of their terms and conditions, which they argue satisfies my CCA S78 (1) request, by the time these were received they were well over the 12+30 day limit and so had committed offence.

 

Can they now take me to court whenever they wish, or given their offence under the act, would they first need to seek the courts permission before instigating proceedings? (I seem to remember reading this somewhere, but am not sure)

 

Have a good weekend everyone, I'll keep you posted on events

 

they can take you to court, however the court will not enforce the debt without a signed, executed copy of the credit agreement. I would write back explaining you were querying the validity of the debt, and will not pay anything until you see a signed, executed copy of the agreement.

[NailPost]

As said earlier there is no need for a reminder letter - as holders of Consumer Credit Licences debt collecting companies are expected to know the law and procedures for dealing with these requests.

 

Having failed to comply with your request it would now be fair for you to write back to them and ask for your £1 and your costs back. A fiver would be a reasonable round figure. You could be naughty and say failure to comply will lead to action being taken against them - county court action would cost them about £80!

[andymr]

Got a copy of my CA which is illegible. I can see my signature but can't read the agreement. They have also put a sticker at the top of the agreement with my account number.

But I don't know if that is legal. I don't know what was written under the sticker.

What is required to know if the agreement has been executed correctly?

[SabreSheep]

hi.

Please start your own thread and post up as a pdf the agreement with personal information removed.

 

follow this guide:

 

**you can post up images/letters by this method immediately..you don't need 10 posts**

.

set your default scan page size to A4 less than 300DPI [150 will do]

scan the required letters/agreements/sheets - as a picture[jpg] file

don't forget you can use a mobile phone or a digital camera too!!

'

BUT......

ENSURE: remove all pers info inc. barcodes etc

but leave all monetary figures and dates.

.

************************* ************************* *******

{DO NOT USE A BIRO OR PEN OR USE SEE THRU TAPE OR LABELS]

************************* ************************* ***********

.

DO IT IN MSPAINT.EXE or any photo editing program

goto one of the many free online pdf converter websites ...

http://freejpgtopdf.com/

http://www.convert-jpg-to-pdf.net/

..

if you have multiple scans/pics

put them in a word doc FIRST and convert that to PDF

or http://www.freepdfconvert.com/

or

use http://www.pdfmerge.com

 

convert existing PC files to PDF [office has an installable print to PDF option]

..

it would be better to upload a multipage pdf if

you have many images too rather than many single pdfs

.

or if you have PDF as an installed printer drive use that

or use word and save as pdf

try and logically name your file so people know what it is.

though DONT USE BANK NAMES or CAGicon in the title

i'e Default notice DDicon-mm-yyyy

.

open a new msg box here

hit go advanced below the msg box

hit manage attachments below that box

hit the add files button on the top right

hit select files, navigate to your file on your pc

hit upload files

...

YOU DONT have to put a link to the attachment in the msg box..just upload it ..job done

.

dx

[ladaniva]

had same trouble sent letters out the reply was we are not obliged to send this by law

[renegadeimp]

Ladaniva. Can you create a separate thread with your issue please and go into more detail.