Thunderpuss2k vs HSBC (bank a/c) **WON**

[thunderpuss2k]

Afternoon

 

Thought I'd start this thread now that I've got something to put in it

 

This relates to a HSBC current account, closed on 24/06/03.

 

Data Protection Act request sent 22/5/06.

Acknowledgement 5/6/06.

Refund of Data Protection Act charge 13/6/06

 

Today (16/6), 20 envelopes arrived. Two interesting things so far..

 

- The statements that have arrived only go back to 26th May 2000. Spookily enough thats precisely six years and one day from the date I wrote the letter.

 

- There has been more than one occasion that they've refunded some of my bank charges. I have of course put this in the spreadsheet (as a minus figure) to make sure the sums add up properly.

 

Anyway, 26/5/00 -> 24/6/03 totals £600 of charges, and if legal action was to be taken at this point in time the 8% interest totals £261.20.

 

As I've now got a full six years worth, will write my letter today. First charge isn't until 4/12/00, so plenty of time..

[Movingon]

OK, I presume that this is where you're going to ask about interest on your charges... bear with me while I write the answer.

[thunderpuss2k]

OK, I presume that this is where you're going to ask about interest on your charges... bear with me while I write the answer.

 

You read my mind - or the other thread I just posted in general

 

Check this..

 

15/12/00 Interest to 23 Nov 00 £55.06

12/01/01 Interest to 21 Dec 00 £70.65

16/02/01 Interest to 25 Jan 01 £103.92

 

.. and so it goes on!

 

Balance at the time of that last entry, £4,640.19 OD. Agreed OD limit: £300.00

 

God knows how that happened..

[Movingon]

Let's assume that on 1 Jan you have an overdraft balance of £100, and if this doesn't change you will be charged 0.01% per day - 3.65% per annum. 0.01% of £100 is one penny per day, £3.65 per year; and in an ideal world this is all it would be - however as we all know balances and interest rates change all the time.

 

If the bank charged you £30 because you were over your arranged o/d limit of £99 (which as we know they would) then your interest would be 1.3p per day. Now, the penny a day we have already said is no problem, so we can only claim back the 0.3p per day on the charge, from that day until the day we're writing our prelim. (Going beyond that date would make it EVEN MORE complicated.

 

So - you have to work out, FOR EACH CHARGE, what difference it made to the interest you were charged on your overdraft... bearing in mind that your balance is popping in and out of overdraft/credit all the time and they don't charge interest when you're in credit; and interest rates change quite often. Did they charge you even more interest while you were overdrawn past your limit? What dates did the rates change?

 

 

As you can see you can approach a kind of approximate figure for it, but it's horrendously complex to get an accurate figure and it could leave you open to the bank challenging your figures, ESPECIALLY if you overestimate the amount of interest.

 

I decided in the end that I wouldn't bother. It really is masses of effort for what in the end turns out to be a few quid.

[thunderpuss2k]

Thanks for the explanation. I'm just wishing now I hadn't looked, as the interest overall across the last six years adds up to £789.94!

[Movingon]

Thanks for the explanation. I'm just wishing now I hadn't looked, as the interest overall across the last six years adds up to £789.94!

 

Overall yes; but unfortunately most of it will have been legitimately charged.

[thunderpuss2k]

Overall yes; but unfortunately most of it will have been legitimately charged.

 

Yep, that's what I figured. It's not bank charges that got me overdrawn, it's spending money. However, still mystified how I managed to go so far overdrawn without them stopping things.. Ah well.

 

Thanks for all the help, going to finish the prelim letter and send it off shortly. [edit: which I've now done. Let battle commence..]

 

Cheers

[maverik1979]

good luck

[thunderpuss2k]

good luck

 

Thanks

[thunderpuss2k]

Just a quick update, fired off the standard 'you haven't provided everything I asked for under my DPA request' letter from the library, giving them another 16 days to produce the rest of the statements (40 sheets worth it seems).

 

Still no reply on the prelim, but it was only sent last Sat.

[maverik1979]

i only got my reply to the prelim 1 day before deadline , so dont panic just yet

[thunderpuss2k]

Not worrying, just impatient

 

DPA letter should keep them busy for a while..

[thunderpuss2k]

Not worrying, just impatient

 

Data Protection Act letter should keep them busy for a while..

 

Ooh cool, I type in D P A and it turned it into DPA. Neat

[thunderpuss2k]

Interesting letter from them this morning. Bear in mind I've sent three letters so far: A DPA request (25th May), Prelim repayment request (16th June), and a missing DPA info (23rd June).

 

Got a letter from Colin Langdale this morning, who apparently is the 'Senior Service Quality Officer'. It goes a little something like this.

 

Thank you for your letter dated 23rd June 2006.

 

In relation to your first point about missing information I would advise that HSBC Bank plc does not retain transactional information over 6 years old so are therefore unable to supply details prior to May 2000.

 

You have also asked for copies of notes etc. relating to "manual intervention" on your account, however, HSBC's records are not structured in a way that will enable us to give you a breakdown of any individual staff involvement in administering your account generally or in relation to any charges identified in the statements which we sent you previously.

 

You should be aware that HSBC's charges are not fixed with reference to the specific amount of staff activity involved in the handling of individual accounts. The level of staff involvement in account management varies from case to case but our charges are set at standard rates, set out in our price list. Changes to ehse charges are notified to you in accordance with the Banking Code. By fixing and publishing standard charges, HSBC ensures that customers are fully aware of the charges that will apply to their accounts.

 

Please be advised that there is no further information to which you are entitled under the Data Protection Act '98 which would shed further light on the charges situation.

 

However, if you wish to discuss your charges further then please contact our Service QUality Team on 08456 028006.

 

Yours sincerely..

 

Interesting. So, a few things here I'd like to ask.

 

1. Has anyone succeeded in getting any more than six years worth of statements from HSBC?

 

2. Are they entitled to refuse any more than the statements I got?

 

3. Is this a standard letter?

 

Thanks!

 

TP

[maverik1979]

1. no

 

2.i believe they are obliged to disclose anything they hold on you, but they have also stated that this cannot be done because of the system they use (how convenient)

 

3.no i dont think it is, i havent seen one like that before

[thunderpuss2k]

Thanks for the reply Anyway, DPA weirdness aside, it's now 19 days since the prelim. Time for the LBA..

[thunderpuss2k]

Looking back at my post #14 (http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/11203-thunderpuss2k-hsbc-bank-c.html#post108988)

 

That's the last I heard from them. My LBA on 23rd June gave them 16 further days to comply. It's now 42 days since delivery of my original request.

 

Bearing in mind they haven't complied, but they have responded (again see post #14), is it worth me going further? I still have no details of any manual intervention, nor do I have any statements further back than May 2000. As someone pointed out on another thread, this is highly likely to be a smokescreen on the banks part. A DPA request covers any time period, not just the one they feel like complying with.

 

Thoughts?

[Spiceskull]

It is a pretty standard response, although I suppose with the number of requests HSBC have had, some changes to the wording and layout will be inevitable. A lot depends on how you worded your original Data Protection Act letter. If it was a standard "please send transaction history, plus evidence of manual intervention," then the response fits in with this request.

 

The "hardest hitting" request is "This is a FULL DISCLOSURE, SUBJECT ACCESS REQUEST, pursuant to the Data Protection Act 1998" - this compels HSBC to provide ALL information they hold on you, however far back in time this goes. If they have data going back to 1980, then HSBC are legally obliged to provided it, and any response that says otherwise is a lie.

 

However, HSBC is not obliged to hold data for more than six years, and they usually don't, which explains why no-one to date has received information going back past 2000.

 

Don't let HSBC get clever with words: they will try to say that information older than 6 years is not covered by the DPA, and that it is statute barred, as per the Limitations Act (1980). This is a lie. The Limitations Act does not apply to the DPA, just to the timeframe in which you can normally make a claim. It is just a convenience for HSBC that six years is a figure that applies to the holding of data as well as making a claim for bank charges to be returned, and they will try to be obstructive by confusing the two.

 

See the steps I took to get my bank charges back.

Spiceskull v HSBC.

Thank you Consumer Action Group.

Read my blog.

 

[thunderpuss2k]

It is a pretty standard response, although I suppose with the number of requests HSBC have had, some changes to the wording and layout will be inevitable. A lot depends on how you worded your original Data Protection Act letter. If it was a standard "please send transaction history, plus evidence of manual intervention," then the response fits in with this request.

 

It was:

 

Please supply me with a complete list of transactions and charges relating to my bank account since the date the account was opened. Alternatively a complete set of statements for that period will be acceptable.

 

The "hardest hitting" request is "This is a FULL DISCLOSURE, SUBJECT ACCESS REQUEST, pursuant to the Data Protection Act 1998" - this compels HSBC to provide ALL information they hold on you, however far back in time this goes. If they have data going back to 1980, then HSBC are legally obliged to provided it, and any response that says otherwise is a lie.

 

OK, might try that next. Still got a mortgage to tackle with them, and awaiting details on some card stuff. Might just wrap the whole lot into one.

 

However, HSBC is not obliged to hold data for more than six years, and they usually don't, which explains why no-one to date has received information going back past 2000.

 

I thought someone said somewhere that Inland Revenue rules insist it's at least seven years? I will go for a hunt through the files to see if I can find any older statements, but the initial rummage didn't turn up much.

 

Don't let HSBC get clever with words: they will try to say that information older than 6 years is not covered by the DPA, and that it is statute barred, as per the Limitations Act (1980). This is a lie. The Limitations Act does not apply to the DPA, just to the timeframe in which you can normally make a claim. It is just a convenience for HSBC that six years is a figure that applies to the holding of data as well as making a claim for bank charges to be returned, and they will try to be obstructive by confusing the two.

 

That's what I believe they're doing, as the information supplied under the DPA request was exactly six years worth. No bank policy is *that* efficient and weeding information.. is it?

[thunderpuss2k]

PS thanks for the reply Spiceskull - appreciate your input!

[thunderpuss2k]

Didn't get a response back to the charges refund LBA, so just filed a claim against HSBC for £946.35 - £600 of charges, £266.35 of interest and £80 court fee.

[thunderpuss2k]

Acknowledged today (31/7).

[thunderpuss2k]

Right, to cut a long story short here's what's been happening the last week or so.

 

Somewhere along the line, a duplicate claim was issued. I phoned up Moneyclaim literally seconds after pushing the button, they took all my details, and promised to cancel the duplicate.

 

Checked the next day, and two claims had been issued. Again phoned up Moneyclaim, they said 'theres nothing on the system about a second claim', and I should wait for a refund.

 

On Friday 31st July, both claims were acknowledged. I then called Moneyclaim *again*, who said I'd never phoned to cancel the duplicate and they knew nothing about it. I gave them exact call dates and times, and who I spoke to (note to anyone who ever phones Moneyclaim: write these details down as you might need it!), they pulled the tapes, and after about an hour phoned back saying I was indeed right, and they'd sort everything out.

 

Meanwhile, a letter arrived from DG Solicitors saying that they assumed one of the claims was a duplicate, and could I clarify - which I did by return post.

 

Fast forward to last Friday. Got a letter from DG Solicitors, offering to settle the full amount - including court costs and the 8% interest, ex-gratia, no admission of liability, etc. Only issue is they wanted me to sign a confidentiality agreement.

 

I replied, advising that I'm happy to accept the settlement but I'm not going to sign a confidentiality agreement, as not only will it incur more costs on both sides to draft a proper confidentiality agreement (and not just a few words of 'I will not talk about this', as they'd put on their letter for me to sign), but also that I could not guarantee details of these proceedings would not be released by the County Court service, either under standard disclosure or the Freedom of Information Act.

 

So there we go. More news as it happens..

[Tobes]

Well done

[thunderpuss2k]

Confirmation from DG Solicitors this morning that they'll be crediting the whole amount to my bank account within the next day or so - which is impressive as I don't think I've ever told them where I bank nowadays. Anyway, a quick fax sorted that.

 

So I guess that's it. I won. Whoop Just waiting for the money now..