Victory68 vs HSBC sorry long thread!

[Victory68]

Hi folks,

 

Well I am quite far down the line here but am a bit stuck. I wrote to HSBC with an adapted version of the letters, basically asking them to refund charges of almost £1000 (excluding interest). In my letter I also complained that their charges had not only put me in a worse financial position but also during the period of most of the charges they offered me a 'helpful' consolidation loan so as to lower my outgoings. This was after having added over £1400 worth of 'insurance' to the original amount borrowed which was £5000. Because I had and overdraft and credit cards to pay off they consolidated all this (including the 'insurance' amount) which took the total up to £10,000 when really I would have needed just over £8000 max. Despite this massive profit (how they must have rubbed their hands in glee at my financial ignorance) they still take £100 per month in interest from this new loan which I have been paying back for 4 years now and therefore paid over £4000 in interest. Here's the painful bit: I still owe them just over £9000 as of June 2006.

 

Re: my chages Basically my work situation changed and I could not meet my SO and DD payments for the month, one of which was to HSBC for the loan. All my creditors gave me a payment holiday that month till I was back on track except HSBC who took the money out of my account, put me into the red, charged me for reversing the other SOs and DDs and charged me for going into the red with their payment.

 

They then reported me to the credit services has having not paid at all and this showed up on my credit report. When I queried them they admitted they shouldn't have done that and apologised for the incovenience which dates back to 2004. My complaint about the loan was that they used my financial difficulty and ignorance to sell me this loan (as they put it at the time to help ease your difficulties) but in fact knew they would profit massively as they just bundled up the unwanted insurance fee into that consolidated amount. I realise I probably don't have any legal redress here but I felt and feel that it was pretty reprehensible on their part, given that during this period of financial instability they wrote to me sayin how they were sympathetic to my situtation and wanted to do all they could to help me etc etc. Anyway I requested that they deduct the insurance payment off my new loan (this wasn't part of the new loan, it was bundled up with the 2 small loans I had with them before).

 

Anyhoo, rather than 2 separate letters I put the two requests in one letter making it ver clear they were 2 separate issues at the top of the letter adn requesting a refund of charges and the insurance payment to be deducted off my loan.

 

Nothing from HSBC at all, not even an acknowledgement so I rang them 2 days before the 14 day deadline before sending the LBA. Nothing so LBA letter went out on day 14. On Day 15 I get a letter basically offering me the amount I asked for less £100 and saying,

 

'In circumstances where you have authorised a payment that would, if met by us, lead to your

account going overdrawn or over an agreed overdraft limit, we have to consider whether to

make this payment. A fee is payable for this service provided by the bank, details of which are clearly set out in our published price list. The circumstances in which the fee will apply are clearly set out in our Personal Banking terms and conditions which you were provided with a copy of when you opened your account. If your claim for a refund proceeded to Court, we therefore believe we would successfully resist any legal challenge in relation to these fees.

 

HSBC is, however, mindful of the management time and irrecoverable legal costs that it may

incur in relation to such a claim. For those commercial reasons alone, and without any

admission of liability whatsoever, HSBC is prepared to make a payment to you in the sum of

£XXX.XX (i.e. £100 less than my total charges) representing the charges applied in full and final settlement of this matter.

If you accept this proposal please sign and return the enclosed copy of this letter to us within 10 working days and we will arrange for a refund to be made to you. If we do not receive your

signed acceptance within this timescale, we will take it that you have declined our offer .

I trust that this matter has now been addressed to your satisfaction. If you are not satisfied with the bank's response you have the right to refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman

Service. Further details about the Ombudsman scheme are set out in the enclosed leaflet and

you have six months from the date of this letter, within which to refer your complaint to them

should you decide to do so.

 

This was signed by the senior service quality manager. I then got a call from the same guy on the same day i got the letter saying that that would be their final offer. When I pointed out the contradictions in his letter i.e that 'we therefore believe we would successfully resist any legal challenge in relation to these fees.'

 

but '

HSBC is, however, mindful of the management time and irrecoverable legal costs that it may

incur in relation to such a claim.(WHY? IF YOU ARE CONFIDENT YOU WOULD SUCCESFULLY RESIST ANY LEGAL CHALLENGE?) For those commercial reasons alone, and without any

admission of liability whatsoever, HSBC is prepared to make a payment (WHY PAY ANYTHING AT ALL? IS IT COMMERCIAL SENSE TO PAY OUT ANYTHING IF YOU ARE NOT LIABLE TO?)

 

He said he could not comment on that. When I asked why not as it was he that had made the comments to me in his letter and he should justify them, he then said

 

a) he had not actually read my letter

b) he had not written the response only signed it

c)he relied on 'his team' to do that and each amount they pay out is decided on an individual basis.

 

When I asked what criteria was used to make the decision in my case, as if they were going to pay out at all and felt they were not liable to pay anything either they should have paid nothing at all or a nominal amount or else just pay the full amount, why decide to take off £100? He said he was not going to tell me the reason and that I should accept the offer as if I decide not to they 'may' increase it or they 'may' withdraw it altogether. I

 

I know its only £100 but that is nothing to them and a big deal to me.

 

Also my complaint about the loan was not even mentioned and this again forcedd him to say that he had not read the letter but 'I suppose we will have to refer it to another department'.

 

TBH, I think I would accept the reduced charges payout if they would refund the £1400 insurance payment to my loan with them. That would make a huge difference to me, and if I'm honest I am concerend that making a fuss over the £100 may swing them against me as regards any possible 'goodwill' gestures re my loan account.

 

HOWEVER.... if they are going to tell me where to get off as regards my loan then they can jolly well cough up the full hundred imo?

 

What does everyone think and sorry for the long post!

 

By the way I've been given 10 days to accept or reject their offer.

 

Thanks!!

 

 

[HSBCrusher]

Hello!

It is unlikley that your loan would be affected, as that is on a seperate agreement to your bank account.

As for refunds of interest on loans taken out to cover illegal fees, there has been a lot of talk on this recently, several are trying to recover these costs.

As to insurance however, I am not so sure. You have paid for a service, you have had the benefit of that insurance (I am playing Devil's advocate by the way)

Nice to see someone who has read the FAQ!

 

Crusher:grin:

[Victory68]

Ha ha Devil's advocate! The 'payment' for the 'service' being that I was 'strongly advised' to take out this insurance, or 'strongly recommended' to. My beef is that the banks are the 'people in power' who have what you 'want/need' i.e the loan (without going into the 'you should have managed your money better or you wouldn't be in this situation speech, if anyone reading this is thinking that...I know, and I have paid dearly for this, over 4 grand and counting. I am now doing all I can to get what I owe paid back as quickly as I can. Believe me, I will get no holiday in the sun from any money returned to me, it is ALL going to repay debt).

 

Anyway back to the point, you don't have (money) 'they' do. You are in need (of money) and usually desparate or in financial difficulty. The banks know this and they sell you the loan and then call you in for a meeting to discuss whether or not they are going to grant you that loan. That is how it was in my case.

 

Now if the people in power say, before you have been given papers etc to sign that they strongly recommend you take out insurance, in case you become ill lose your job etc (basically playing the 'fear' card) unless you knew then what we all know now 9 times out of 10 you are going to agree because they have you over a barrel and they know it. I have one friend who took out PPI as it was implied that she wouldn't get the loan unless she did. We know that this isn't the case but we are still fearful and I feel the banks take advantage of this and do NOTHING to put us in the true picture. How many of us thought we were going to the 'listening bank' to get financial advice from people who had more experience about financial matters than us and wanted to help us through our financial difficulties? I know I did.

 

It has only taken a few calls and letters for us all to realise that in fact no, these guys are trained to do their jobs which is to make as much money for their banks as possible at our expense sailing as close to the edge of the law (and certainly overstepping the moral boundaries of fairness and integrity) as possible. Now I know these guys at the bank are very careful to stay 'within' the law as they give you your loan T&C's etc BUT they are very ambiguous in the way that they do it. They would never say, 'You don't have to take out this policy at all and it won't affect our decision as to whether we give you the loan'. Most people believe that the 2 are entwined and the banks know that and will go on letting you believe that, including mentioning the 'you have 14 days in which to cancel' (i.e the loan agreement) blurb, but not mentioning the insurance at any point once they have got you to sign for it.

 

Yeah, yeah serves us right for being ignorant but you know what serve them right now that we are no longer ignorant we will make sure as many people as possible know how underhand these organisations can be. I for one noticed the wheels coming off when I have called some of these organisations (not HSBC in this case) and they have tried to argue that for example £5 per copy statement is reasonable and that's what they charge and that's the end of the matter. You mention the DPA, they argue, you mention the DPA again, they go away and keep you on hold for ages before coming back and suddenly yes, stutter stutter, £10 for the lot it is. No defence of their £5 per copy exorbitant charge! You realise that then these people are not God, they are ordinary just like you. The difference in the way I am treated now that I know a few more of my rights by some of these organisations is like night and day. I don't blame the call centre people. Their trainining is to uphold company policy (probably at the risk of their jobs)and those higher up the chain are imo, expoloiting their 'valued' employees as much as they are their customers

 

Another thing is that even if you do buy into the fear there is no guarantee that if you DO hit the financial skids that the PPI will pay out anyway as many have found to their chagrin. But I digress. The original loan and insurance was sold to me 6 months before the consolidation loan, now my argument is if you (HSBC) were trying to be sympathetic and helpful to me as your valued customer why when i DID hit financial difficulty did you close off the most sensible avenue of help (payment holiday) and force me into a sitaution where I had no choice but to take up your offer of 'help' (new consolidation loan). Tbh and this is my fault I know, it wasn't until I began this process that I even realised that I had purchased the PPI, I just saw it on my statement and do you know they never said 'Oh don't worry you have had this unforseen financial hicccup, but Victory68 I see you have PPI so son't worry, that will cover your payments until you are back on track,' That didn't even come into the equation. So service schmervice is what I would say! Funny how that PPI payment wan't carried over into my new loan, just buried in it!

 

It boils down to one thing. I was gullible and I have been hustled!

 

Serves me right maybe, but then don't write me letters (HSBC) talking about your commitment to excellent customer service and openeness and integrity! Cause it aint so!!

 

SOOOOOO, as regards he separate issue of the bank charges should I go for the extra hundred quid or accept their offer?

[HSBCrusher]

Sorry to read your tale, you have my sympathy.

I was caught with the old insurance [problem] myself some time ago.

You are right, it is as if you will not get your loan if you do not take insurance. If you are in a spot, you'll take anything offered, so don't beat yourself so hard over it!

When I paid off the loan I managed to get them to refund the unused insurance premium too.

There is a lot of this type of thing going on, have a read around, and yes, I do get very angry about it too, and that's why this forum is so great. It brings us together.

And it's great to get stuff off your chest too.

I received a letter nearly exactly the same as yours today, offering just half. As if.....

As for the offer, it's up to you. Is the £100 worth the extra hassle? I am sure they would pay it if you asked for it though. I would not think they would change their mind from "no court" to "go to court" over a hundred quid.

[Victory68]

Thanks HSBCrusher!

 

I have decided to reply and accept their offer as partial settlement of my full claim, and request that they credit my account within 7 days and let me know when they will send the final £100. As we know, Bank charges are not legally enforcable if they are penalties, and the OFT has stated that anything over £12 is a penalty. Their 'admin' costs have been more than covered by the interest they charged me on these punitive charges. Therefore I expect them to send the £100 as well as I feel they are witholding it out of spite. £100 is a lot of money to me but peanuts to them. Either they have a case or they don't. If they do have a valid case, then don't pay anything, if they don't then cough up the lot!

 

Their 'defence' is contradictory and it seems most people who have held out for the lot have got it. If they decide to withdraw their offer I am intrigued as to what grounds they would use, and if they take this route I assume I proceed to court as though they had rejected my original claim yes?

 

I am also annoyed that the person I spoke to didn't even bother to read my letter (even though he had it right in front of him when he called me,and had signed his name to my 'reply' ) before he spoke to me about 'my claim'. Lazy so and so said it was 'rather long'!

i.e more than a page.

 

and said that if I had seriously expected him to read it then my claim would have taken weeks to process!

 

Does that mean he's just a slow reader?

 

Janet & John anyone? or is it Biff & Chip nowadays?

[HSBCrusher]

 

I am also annoyed that the person I spoke to didn't even bother to read my letter (even though he had it right in front of him when he called me,and had signed his name to my 'reply' ) before he spoke to me about 'my claim'. Lazy so and so said it was 'rather long'!

i.e more than a page.

 

and said that if I had seriously expected him to read it then my claim would have taken weeks to process!

 

Does that mean he's just a slow reader?

 

Janet & John anyone? or is it Biff & Chip nowadays?

 

A bit like the Janet and John stories on radio 2?

What a berk. (Polite)

It just makes you want to go bang.

I don't suppose you got any record of the conversation?

 

I like your style, you'll go far! :grin:

[Victory68]

Well I have sent my reply today to HSBC accepting their offer as PARTIAL settlement of my claim.

 

I will keep you posted. It looks as though quite a few people have taken the first offer money and run, so I feel I might be viewed as 'difficult' for making a fuss over 100 pounds.

 

However HSBC's case doesn't hold water and I feel that if they are paying at all they should pay everything.

 

I really hope I am not going to end up being the 'test case' in court!

 

 

The service chap said that if I reject the offer I might lose the lot! i.e.they might withdraw their offer. Or they 'might' pay the lot.

 

I need every penny...would love to go on holiday but I have debts to clear and that is where the money will be going.

 

They really are trying it on aren't they 'settling for less than the figures asked for' What a cheek!

[maverik1979]

dont lose faith, stick it out and you'll get all your money

[matt666051]

Just a quick note to say that when I took out my loan last summer to take my girlfriend away somewhere really nice for her birthday I had to literally battle with the guy on the phone for over half an hour to not take out any payment protection (insurance as you put it).

 

My circumstances dictate that if anything really bad happened I would actually be ok with continuing to pay my loan but despite explaining this to him and going into further detail, which i cannot here, he was still extremely pressurising and forceful about taking out the insurance.

 

I wonder how much they pay out in realtion to premiums paid? I am sure it will be an extremly tidy mark up for them given this pressure tactic that they are obviously forced to employ by their bosses.

[HSBCrusher]

I had a conversation with someone on the phone not so long ago.

"you need this insurance, what happens if you go sick?"

"I have loads of insurances"

"What sort of insurance policies?"

(by this point I am starting to get somewhat narked)

"Loads of them. If I took out every one offered, I'd need a second job just to pay the insurances!"

"what would happen if you went sick?"

"I get 12 months full sick pay"

"What then?"

It was at this point I went loopy loo.

 

 

Needless to say I did not take out the loan!

 

:grin:

[Victory68]

Hi guys,

Have been away for awhile but am happy to report that my claim was settled in full, so for any and everyone who is contemplating doing this GO FOR IT!!! AND HOLD OUT FOR THE FULL AMOUNT!

[TaylorMade]

Nice going - you're living up to your name I'm a little way behind you, but looking for the same result.

 

Put this money where you need to put it, and I hope it brings a little peace of mind