Help!

[Ecossewarrior]

I used to own a roofing company. I got friendly with somebody and agreed to put a new roof on their house for £950 which is mega cheap.

 

Anyway it ended up that the council were not happy with it and they re-roofed it again. The lady then stated to me she wanted all her money back (£950). However It cost me about £700 to do the job in the first place as a favour. I did give her a contract however the business is not operating any more and I have paid her £450 up to now.

 

She threatened to take me to court if i do not pay the rest A.S.A.P however I do not feel it fair to pay the whole amount. And since my business is no longer trading would I have to pay anything anyway?

 

 

Please help somebody

[blacksheep1979]

depends wether they class the business as doing it or you. Tbh if the work wasn't up to standard you should possibly have been given the option to remedy the situation first.

[Ecossewarrior]

Hmm thats a good point but the council just went ahead and did the work. How would they know if it was me or the business doing it? weird. I gave her an invoice with the company name on it. just gave her another £50 so thats £500.

 

£700 is more than reasonable amount to give her dont you think due to the circumstances

[dw190]

Hmm thats a good point but the council just went ahead and did the work. How would they know if it was me or the business doing it? weird. I gave her an invoice with the company name on it. just gave her another £50 so thats £500.

 

£700 is more than reasonable amount to give her dont you think due to the circumstances

 

Was it a limited company? If so and it has ceased trading you should not be liable.

[blacksheep1979]

Thing is, by giving her money its kinda admitting responsibility - did the original £900 go through the books?

[Ecossewarrior]

It did not go through the books because I only operated for 4 months so did not have an Accountant set up etc... and only made a very small profit. She said she could sue me personally though and her lawyers have told her this

 

I told the Inland Revenue that I set up but that was about as far as it went really...

[Ecossewarrior]

Could somebody please help because she is wanting all of her £900 by next week or taking me to court

[poppynurse]

Were you operating as a sole trader or a limited company?

Why were you not given the option of rectifying the work, has anyone told you what the problem was with it?

Why are you giving her money without knowing the reason she wants a refund?

[Ecossewarrior]

Well it ended up that due to it being a council listed building the council sent her a letter saying the roof had not been done properly and forced her to pay £4000 for the roof to be re-done. She would have only had to pay £2000 since she lives in a flat which occupies somebody else however she did not inform the council I was doing the work so they made her pull the full thing. I was not any form of company due to me just starting up so as I said I did phone inland revenue to let them know however I did not register the business.

[Guest weegirl]

Did she pay by cash or cheque?

 

Also, did you issue her with a receipt when she did pay?

[Ecossewarrior]

Cash she paid and yes I issued her with a receipt. However she knew I was doing the job dirty cheap since it cost me about £700 for all materials to even do the job! I done it as a favour and shes doing this to me

[dw190]

Did she inform you that it was a listed building and that any alterations must first be approved by the Council? If you were not made aware of the restrictions it may rest with her.

 

The fact that the Council did not approve of the work does not mean the work was not satisfactory.

 

Some cottages near my inlaws are listed and have had to have windows removed because the council objected to their design. The onus fell on the householder as the windows quality and fitting was A1.

[poppynurse]

I would think that the onus was on her to know whether she could employ you to do the work - ie if it is a listed building she would be aware of this so it is her mistake if the sole reason the roof had to be redone was that it did not comply with the council regs. If you know the work you did was of an acceptable standard I would not be refunding a penny, if the work was not an acceptable standard you should have been given the opportunity to put it right.

Has she put anything in writing to you? If she has it may help if you copy it onto here, if not I would write to her stating the above and tell her you are not willing to pay her another penny until she proves your work was substandard.

[Ecossewarrior]

Hmmm thank u for your post dw190 however she states that she could even take me to court for £5,100 which is the cost of the council doing the job plus the money I took off her...

 

HOWEVER!

 

She would only have had to pay half of the council bill if she had pre-approved it with the council. Since she did not she was made to pay the full whack for both her and her neighbour.

 

I am pretty scared as I have just finished my Accounting degree and want to get on with my life however I do not want dragged through the courts for thousands of pounds. Especially when The business has not ran for over a year now? It confuses me how you never hear of any rogue traders being forced to pay money back however I merely tried to help her out since I was her friend at the time and I have been made a complete fool of (((( so annoyed because I was meant to be going on holiday but I cant now until this issue is resolved.

[Guest weegirl]

The best thing to do would be to contact the council, and find out exactly whose responsibility it is to inform them of any work to listed buildings - the property tenant/owner, or builder, and get this confirmed in writing. It may be on their website for downloading anyway. I was going buy a listed house a few years ago, it fell through but researched a bit into the planning side of it. It may be different in the rest of the UK, but in Northern Ireland, it is the owner who need to get planning for any changes to the property that will alter the look of it. There are very strict guidelines on listed properties and I'm not surprised that the council took a dim view on this.

 

If it is her responsibility, and I would say it is, and she did not inform the council, not your problem, and if she didn't inform you that the building was listed, again it isn't your fault. If were not a registered contractor with any regularatory authority, you didn't have any standards to meet - not saying you are in rouge trader terrority, it just makes it less complicated.

 

I assume she told you what she wanted, and you complied with that. And as stated in an earlier post, the building was re-roofed because it didn't comply with the listed status, not because of shoddy work. You can of course argue that you were doing the job as a friend, not just as a contractor if it comes to it. I assume that you kept receipts for the job, any judge will see that you did the job for virtually nothing.

 

She sounds like a chancer that is a bit thick on it - get your groundwork done first, and if you have to get a solicitor to write her a letter telling her to politely eff off, you won't have to pay them to do the legwork first.

[Ecossewarrior]

Hey, the only problem is that she got a surveyor out who said the work done was not correct. This was only due to the fact that no cement work was finished by us. This was due to the fact that I told her that we could not possibly do that as well due to the cost we were charging. But I am unsure if any other work we carried out was not to the demand either. Also just before the council put the new roof on it started leaking again.....?

 

I am so unsure what to do. I dont want to be in the situation where she takes me to court for all this money however I tried to say to her I would pay around £700 but she thinks this is not enough and her lawyers could claim for all the money easily.. however how could she prove that it was leaking? Also I dont understand how she can even sue me when I dont have a business anymore?

[Guest weegirl]

Ask for a copy of the surveyor's report. If the problems were not down to your work, then she will have to chase whoever carried out the rest of the work.

 

As your company was not in a limited liability status, she can chase you personally. If you haven't got assets though, she would be wasting her time.

[Ecossewarrior]

I have a car lol but im selling it shortly..? hmm If I ask her for the surveyors report it woud show that I am trying to fight paying her and she might try and hit me with the 5k court case

[Guest weegirl]

She will have to pay her solicitors fees, court fees - all at the risk that she could lose and for what? You can't pay!

 

There's no point in chasing anyone that genuinely doesn't have any money. Has she sent you any solicitor's letters yet, or has she just told you what her solicitors have said?

[bally35]

I am still of he opnion that it was the customers responsibilty.

If you did not include the concrete work in your original quote, and this was the only fault then I dont see how you are liable in this instance.

The lady then becomes the contarctor, since she is putting the different elements of the work together.

As for the listed building status, I would have thought that since she is both the owner and contractor, she is wholly responsible for the roof.

You are basically a worker and it would be her responsibilty to ensure that the work complied with listed buildings regulations on this, and the quality of work within that scope.

But I would talk to Local Council.The parties involved in the building works will usually be co-ordinated by an architect or surveyor who will oversee the project. They will tender the work out to trusted building contractors and craftsmen. The choice of contractors is important as specialist materials and skills may be required to achieve a proper repair, and a poor job could affect the market value of the property. If the work is part of an insurance claim, most non-specialist insurers will insist that a building contractor from their own panel is used, but insurers such as Independent, Chubb and Hiscox allow their clients to use the most appropriate craftsmen for the repair work.Who is liable for what?RISKRESPONSIBILITYExisting PropertyOwnerWorks in progressOwnerNegligent damageContractor's public liability

The architect/surveyor will probably use the JCT Minor Works 6.3b contract conditions to form the basis of the contract between you and the builder. This usually places the onus on the owner as the employer to insure against material damage to the project - hence the need to brief the insurance company fully. You need an insurer and broker who understand these contract conditions.

This onus on the property owner is the subject of some debate among insurers, and may change in the future so that the contractor becomes responsible for the works' insurance.

The main contractor has a responsibility to ensure that no damage is caused to the property and must maintain adequate public liability insurance. The indemnity limit should reflect the maximum potential loss. For smaller homes an indemnity limit of £2 million will be adequate; for larger properties, the sum insured will need to be increased accordingly. Any sub-contractors who are employed must also carry the same indemnity limit and their insurance details should be verified before they start work.

Many claims arise from 'hot works'. Blowtorches and welding equipment for example, if left smouldering, may start a blaze and all naked flames have been banned from some historic properties. Where works are permissible all reputable contractors should have a hot works permit that requires them to monitor an area worked on for at least an hour after the work has been completed. Check that the contractor or any sub-contractor does not have a heat exclusion in their liability policy, as this will affect your insurer's recovery rights.

If the building being worked on is close to other people's property, the owner should consider extending the contractor's liability insurance to cover non-negligent damage that may be caused during the works; the JCT 21 2 1 contract.

EXPOSURES

Repair and alteration

[Ecossewarrior]

Ok so should I keep paying her money or what?

[Guest weegirl]

I wouldn't give her another penny. It's a pity you did start paying, it looks like you have admitted responsibility for the faults.

 

Did she send you a solicitors letter? Just checking that she has actually cosulted a solicitor. She could be just bull****ting

[Planner]

1. I wouldnt contact the council. Its a criminal offence to carry out works to a listed building without the correct consent, punishable by imprisonment or unlimited fine. If the arrangement is the same as the permission neededto cut down protect trees(TPO's) (which I believe it is) then the contractor is also under obligation to ensure that the correct paper work is in place NOT JUST THE OWNER, so you could also be held jointly responsible by the council as the contractor should they wish to take the matter further.

 

2. If this is the main reason why she wants the money back i.e. She didnt ensure that the correct paperwork is in place then let her take you to court, as you could only reasonably be responsible for 1/2 of the cost (which you have given her already) should the judge take the view of point 1 above i.e. is both your responsibility to ensure the correct paperwork is in place.

 

3. If its do to shoddy work (i.e. not done to a decendant standard) then I would pay her. Shoddy work shouldnt include "its not right because you used the wrong sort of materials" (i.e. not same colour slate or something as should be done on listed building) as this would be back to point 1 and 2 concerning the paper work.

 

Good luck

[bally35]

Carmarthenshire County Council - Listed Buildings

 

Thanks To Planner for good advice on this.But is the owner that contractor or the person carrying out the work?

Can the owner not also be the contarctor, if they are organising the various elements of the work required?

[Planner]

Contractor would be the person "Contracted" to do the work, so could be owner if they do the work themselves, which is not the case here.