SLC Cannot Supply The Original Agreement

[conchy_joe]

thanks again pliny,scales tipped.

[soli2006]

I've never actually complained to either the OFT or Trading Standards before. Are there any addresses for doing this, and are there any standard letters or formats i should be using?

[weaver440]

Hi, have had my agreement copy from british gas (damn and blast them!!) and it took them much longer than it should have.

Am wanting to sent this letter now tho for return of charges and removal of default, bear in mind they have already had the SAR, Pre lim and the LBA. Can someone have a look at it and let me know if it is ok or am I missing some vital info or making demands that I cannot enforce. All comments very much appreciated:D

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

I have finally received a copy of the agreement that refers to the above account after weeks and weeks of unwanted telephone calls from you and letters sent to yourselves reminding you that, as a result of your non compliance of the Consumer Credit Act you have committed a criminal offence. Under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 s.78 (1) (s.77 (1) for fixed sum credit you were legally bound to produce this document within 12 days of the request being made which you didn’t so as a result you have defaulted on this account, not only that you that put you in breach of the above Act. It is at this point that I ceased making payments which was my legal right to do so. I am advising you that you cannot take out a default on this account when you have already defaulted!!! You were then given another 1 Calendar month, which would have given you till the 26th April or there about to produce the documents but again you failed to comply with the Consumer Credit Act 1974, at which point you were committing a criminal offence. It took you no less than another 28 days before I received the documents! This is totally unacceptable! As you are aware I have already written to Trading Standards and the Office of Fair trading but so appalled am I by the way you have conducted yourselves that I am going to make a severe complaint to the Financial Services and my MP.

Now that I have the requested documents I would like to bring my account up to date. What I require from you is a full statement of the account dated from 10/12/04 to today’s date. Furthermore, I demand that all charges and interest that has been added to this account from 8th March be removed and that the statement clearly shows this and as my letter dated 7th March requests that you refund all other charges which you have unlawfully levied from my account since 10/12/04. I also require the return of £10.00 costs (for having to send 9 letters recorded delivery regarding this account)

IMPORTANT – Default Notice served under section 87 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

Regarding the default notice you issued - your letter dated 5 May 2007 ( a copy of which I enclose). I am advising you that you must remove this default notice. As previously mentioned you were already in default before issuing this default notice – you cannot issue a default when you have yourselves defaulted.( Some legislation quoted here would be useful if anyone knows what it is, Peter Bard if you are there) Please remove this default immediately and supply me with written confirmation that you have done this. Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history since 10/12/04 which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my banking business with you.

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please confirm this in your response.

Please be advised then that you have 14 days to respond positively to the above after that there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a claim.

[weaver440]

I've never actually complained to either the OFT or Trading Standards before. Are there any addresses for doing this, and are there any standard letters or formats i should be using?

 

 

HI,

 

OFT address I wrote to is Enquiries Unit, Office of Fair Trading, Fleetbank house, 2-6 Salisbury Square, London, EC4Y 8JX and as for the Trading standards i think every one has there own regional office that they should communicate with. In my case it was north Yorshire. If thats your region let me know and i will post it.

[Pliny the Penuriosus]

I've never actually complained to either the OFT or Trading Standards before. Are there any addresses for doing this, and are there any standard letters or formats i should be using?

 

For all enquiries, guidance on the work of OFT and to report anti-competitive or other behaviour by a trader or traders, please email [email protected].

If you require consumer advice, information on specific consumer rights or wish to make a consumer complaint against a trader, please call the Consumer Direct advice service on 08454 04 05 06 or visit the Consumer Direct website.

[soli2006]

For all enquiries, guidance on the work of OFT and to report anti-competitive or other behaviour by a trader or traders, please email [email protected].

 

If you require consumer advice, information on specific consumer rights or wish to make a consumer complaint against a trader, please call the Consumer Direct advice service on 08454 04 05 06 or visit the Consumer Direct website.

 

 

Many thanks

[sparklyd]

I am in a similar position with Lloyds TSB, and its not as simple as the loan company not being able to prove that a debt existed on the basis that the original agreement cannot be found, or so I was advised by the Financial Ombudsman.

 

Apparently whilst the paper copy may be missing, all details of debt will be computerised, and if, as I have, you have been making payments, they will be difficult to explain away when they take you to court for non payment, and the judge asks you why you have been paying the bank money if a debt didnt exist?

 

If anyone has a different stance on this, then cool, let me know as I can then get rid of about £13,000.00 worth!! But this is the advice I was told when I called the helpline, but then he couldn't tell me if the bank was unable to levy interest if the original agreement didnt exist, so if anyone can offer any advice, then that would make my day if he was wrong!!

 

Cheers

 

sparkly:confused:

[noomill060]

Financial Ombudsman is not independant- the FOS is financed by the banks.

 

Take whatever they say with a grain of salt.

 

They cannot rewrite the CCA or second guess what a judge may or may not ask you.

[pford]

I am in a similar position with Lloyds TSB, and its not as simple as the loan company not being able to prove that a debt existed on the basis that the original agreement cannot be found, or so I was advised by the Financial Ombudsman.

 

Apparently whilst the paper copy may be missing, all details of debt will be computerised, and if, as I have, you have been making payments, they will be difficult to explain away when they take you to court for non payment, and the judge asks you why you have been paying the bank money if a debt didnt exist?

 

If anyone has a different stance on this, then cool, let me know as I can then get rid of about £13,000.00 worth!! But this is the advice I was told when I called the helpline, but then he couldn't tell me if the bank was unable to levy interest if the original agreement didnt exist, so if anyone can offer any advice, then that would make my day if he was wrong!!

 

Cheers

 

sparkly:confused:

 

But if they take you to court over this and can't produce the signed documents it can't be enforced bye the courts due to section 127 (3) of the CCA if it was entered into pre April 2007. The debt is still there but can't be enforced through the courts

[rhsymonds]

pford is right as far as i know. If they cant enforce the agreement then legally there is almost nothing they can do if you stop paying. You may be able to get the debt written off by threatening to report them, or claim harassment if they pursue you further.

 

Its not as easy as it sounds, but im trying something similar at the moment and while one company has indeed written back saying they cant find the agreement, and therefore will be closing the account, i also have another company which provided me with an unsigned copy of my agreement and are far less likely to call off the debt.

[zubo]

I am in a similar position with Lloyds TSB, and its not as simple as the loan company not being able to prove that a debt existed on the basis that the original agreement cannot be found, or so I was advised by the Financial Ombudsman.

 

Apparently whilst the paper copy may be missing, all details of debt will be computerised, and if, as I have, you have been making payments, they will be difficult to explain away when they take you to court for non payment, and the judge asks you why you have been paying the bank money if a debt didnt exist?

 

If anyone has a different stance on this, then cool, let me know as I can then get rid of about £13,000.00 worth!! But this is the advice I was told when I called the helpline, but then he couldn't tell me if the bank was unable to levy interest if the original agreement didnt exist, so if anyone can offer any advice, then that would make my day if he was wrong!!

 

Cheers

 

sparkly:confused:

 

Sparkly

 

Absolute rubbish.

 

Would anyone who talk to these people and get offered this advice please get their name and write to the Ombudsman suggesting that if they provide the rifle you will put this person up against the wall and shoot them.

Seriously, if I had been offered that advice I would write to the Ombudsman and complain about the appalling poor advice offered and whether they would care to comment on that advice visavis the main piece of Consumer Credit Legislation CCA 1974 Sections 77-79 (&s85), and in addition what training re CCA law and subsequent Statutes do they give their helpline staff - seems like none - they need educating....

 

Whilst you are about it, write to OFT and complain about poor CCA advice offered by Ombudsman AND copy your MP and ask him/her to comment.

 

We really need these so called experts to get their act together and really really understand the law before they offer such appalling advice.

 

Oh to get back to you.... if NO debtor signed agreement can be sent to you then the agreement is completely unenforceable even at court REGARDLESS of transactions. The key issues are that a debt exists but the creditor cannot lawfully enforce it without a true debtor signed agreement containing ALL the prescribed terms AND any other document referred to in the agreement - eg the ORIGINAL T&C.

 

Remedies: highly experimental and we are still working on it: IF there was no agreement at the outset then the creditor has unlawfully enriched himself by charging you interest and charges - you should be able to seek restitution to recover these plus accrued lost interest because they took your money. Because there is no agreement, then you have NOT provided consent to share data so the alleged agreement should not be given to CRAs, nor can the CCP ever issue you with a default, nor can they sell or assign the debt.

 

ok?

 

Z

[daipp]

Sparkly

 

Absolute rubbish.

 

Would anyone who talk to these people and get offered this advice please get their name and write to the Ombudsman suggesting that if they provide the rifle you will put this person up against the wall and shoot them.

Seriously, if I had been offered that advice I would write to the Ombudsman and complain about the appalling poor advice offered and whether they would care to comment on that advice visavis the main piece of Consumer Credit Legislation CCA 1974 Sections 77-79 (&s85), and in addition what training re CCA law and subsequent Statutes do they give their helpline staff - seems like none - they need educating....

 

Whilst you are about it, write to OFT and complain about poor CCA advice offered by Ombudsman AND copy your MP and ask him/her to comment.

 

We really need these so called experts to get their act together and really really understand the law before they offer such appalling advice.

 

Oh to get back to you.... if NO debtor signed agreement can be sent to you then the agreement is completely unenforceable even at court REGARDLESS of transactions. The key issues are that a debt exists but the creditor cannot lawfully enforce it without a true debtor signed agreement containing ALL the prescribed terms AND any other document referred to in the agreement - eg the ORIGINAL T&C.

 

Remedies: highly experimental and we are still working on it: IF there was no agreement at the outset then the creditor has unlawfully enriched himself by charging you interest and charges - you should be able to seek restitution to recover these plus accrued lost interest because they took your money. Because there is no agreement, then you have NOT provided consent to share data so the alleged agreement should not be given to CRAs, nor can the CCP ever issue you with a default, nor can they sell or assign the debt.

 

ok?

 

Z

 

I love this post - it's brilliant.

 

Scales have been stroked as appropriate !!

 

David

[JonCris]

sparkly Zubo is spot on & the FO are like the other chocolate teapot so called regulators a bunch of plonkers.

 

They don't understand the CCA 1974 anymore than the banks & their mates.

 

Even the courts are having to learn because of the disputes now being presented. Before it was only a case of rubber stamping a creditors application & because most consumers didn't know their rights they didn't defend.

 

That's certainly bloody changed now.

 

No agreement equals no enforcement, no enforcement equals no payment & NOBODY, including a court, can change that

[conchy_joe]

hi zubo,after reading sparklyd's story i began to feel rather half crown threepenny bit,but i'm up for the fight now,"reliable" are just about cooked and the twelve day deadline for "ldc" and "b.o.s" is up on the 31st...many thanks,i got your scales as well.

[johnny131070]

Hi everyone, what a great thread. I have a question and wonder if anyone can help. I originally took a loan out from Citifinancial for £3600 in nov 2004. Payments were upto date for 6 months when my business fell into difficulty. To cut a long story short i missed a few payments and the loan was then passed to Direct Legal & Collections. I arranged monthly payments of £85 and payed these for the last 10 months. I then received a letter stating that the balance of my account was near £5000. I queried this with DL&C and they said that they would look into it. This was over 5 weeks ago and i have heard nothing. I entered into verbal communication before i found this site. What should i do next? I think that there is an error with the loan amount but should i send a letter requesting the original loan agreement from CITIFINANCIAL. Many thanks in advance for any replies.

[johnny131070]

Anybody?

[zubo]

Hi everyone, what a great thread. I have a question and wonder if anyone can help. I originally took a loan out from Citifinancial for £3600 in nov 2004. Payments were upto date for 6 months when my business fell into difficulty. To cut a long story short i missed a few payments and the loan was then passed to Direct Legal & Collections. I arranged monthly payments of £85 and payed these for the last 10 months. I then received a letter stating that the balance of my account was near £5000. I queried this with DL&C and they said that they would look into it. This was over 5 weeks ago and i have heard nothing. I entered into verbal communication before i found this site. What should i do next? I think that there is an error with the loan amount but should i send a letter requesting the original loan agreement from CITIFINANCIAL. Many thanks in advance for any replies.

 

Johnny

 

Submit a request for a FULL SAR with particular reference to a true copy of the executed agreement, ALL transactions, a copy of all assignment of debt, and any manual intervention or confirmation that there is none and all digital recordings. Need to mention that you do not acknowledge the debt and it is in dispute and you have suspended payments whilst you investigate the legal basis for the alleged debt. Find a suitable template for SAR and modify it post your letter here so we can check, Enclose the statutory fee £10+£1 send it recorded.

 

Do NOT discuss this with anyone - insist on all communication in writing

 

Z

[zubo]

btw Johnny

 

be patient... think about it - we are all working - in fact I'm waiting on a conference call.

 

Most of us have heavy committments and reply as best we can - it can be frustrating I know but remember - nobody can pursue these debts any faster than we can advise you, so relax, multiple advice from different posters is also better.

 

thanks

 

Z

[elsinore]

Also johnny, bungleboy has an interesting thread going about a Citi loan in the Citicards forum. You might want to compare notes.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/citicards/85646-citi-loans-[problem].html

 

Els

[johnny131070]

Thanks guys. Will this be acceptable?

Direct Legal & Collections

Buckingham Rd

Brackley

Northants

NN137DN

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re:− Citifinancial Europe / Associates Acc no :xxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

With reference to the above agreement, we would be grateful if you would send us a copy of this credit agreement.

 

We understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77−79), we are entitled to receive a copy of our credit agreement on request. We enclose a payment of £1.00 which represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act.

 

We understand a copy of our credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days.

 

We understand that under the Consumer Credit Act creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the act.

Data Protection Act 1998

Subject Access Request

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

Please supply me with a complete list of transactions and charges relating to my banking history with your organisation. Alternatively, a complete set of statements for that period will be acceptable.

 

Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my banking business with you.

 

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply. Furthermore, if I discover that you have levied disproportionate penalties against me, then I shall be reclaiming them, and also reclaiming the enclosed £10 Data Protection Act subject access request fee.

 

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

I would be happy to collect the Data from my local branch.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Jonathan Edwards

[johnny131070]

Would this be an acceptable letter?

[johnny131070]

One other question do i send the £1 and £10 separately or can i put on the same cheque?

[weaver440]

Johnny,

 

these banking people are really stupid, and if there not then they can certainly pretend to be when it suits them - I would send 2 seperate cheques, write on the back what the cheque is for so as to leave them with no possible doubt!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[weaver440]

PLEASE.Is there anyone who can tell me if this letter is ok???????????

[quote=weaver440;851072]Hi, have had my agreement copy from british gas (damn and blast them!!) and it took them much longer than it should have.

Am wanting to sent this letter now tho for return of charges and removal of default, bear in mind they have already had the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request), Pre lim and the LBA. Can someone have a look at it and let me know if it is ok or am I missing some vital info or making demands that I cannot enforce. All comments very much appreciated:D

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

I have finally received a copy of the agreement that refers to the above account after weeks and weeks of unwanted telephone calls from you and letters sent to yourselves reminding you that, as a result of your non compliance of the Consumer Credit Act you have committed a criminal offence. Under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 s.78 (1) (s.77 (1) for fixed sum credit you were legally bound to produce this document within 12 days of the request being made which you didn’t so as a result you have defaulted on this account, not only that you that put you in breach of the above Act. It is at this point that I ceased making payments which was my legal right to do so. I am advising you that you cannot take out a default on this account when you have already defaulted!!! You were then given another 1 Calendar month, which would have given you till the 26th April or there about to produce the documents but again you failed to comply with the Consumer Credit Act 1974, at which point you were committing a criminal offence. It took you no less than another 28 days before I received the documents! This is totally unacceptable! As you are aware I have already written to Trading Standards and the Office of Fair trading but so appalled am I by the way you have conducted yourselves that I am going to make a severe complaint to the Financial Services and my MP.

Now that I have the requested documents I would like to bring my account up to date. What I require from you is a full statement of the account dated from 10/12/04 to today’s date. Furthermore, I demand that all charges and interest that has been added to this account from 8th March be removed and that the statement clearly shows this and as my letter dated 7th March requests that you refund all other charges which you have unlawfully levied from my account since 10/12/04. I also require the return of £10.00 costs (for having to send 9 letters recorded delivery regarding this account)

 

IMPORTANT – Default Notice served under section 87 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

Regarding the default notice you issued - your letter dated 5 May 2007 ( a copy of which I enclose). I am advising you that you must remove this default notice. As previously mentioned you were already in default before issuing this default notice – you cannot issue a default when you have yourselves defaulted.( Some legislation quoted here would be useful if anyone knows what it is, Peter Bard if you are there) Please remove this default immediately and supply me with written confirmation that you have done this. Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history since 10/12/04 which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my banking business with you.

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please confirm this in your response.

 

Please be advised then that you have 14 days to respond positively to the above after that there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a claim.

[johnny131070]

Who are the 2 cheques payable to? I assume the £1 cheque is for the CCA but if my agreement has been taken over by Direct Legal & Collections who do i make the SAR cheque payable to?