SLC Cannot Supply The Original Agreement

[rippedoffagain]

Well, I now need some serious advice if there is anyone who can help. You can see from my previous post how far things had come, well I got a letter dated 11th from AA personal Finance ( underwriters for British gas Loans I think) from there customer care dept. Basically the letter is a response to my Harrasment letter sent to British Gas but because it is a complaint they have just looked at it as an isolated letter and passed it on to the complaints dept. I have responded to the letter advising them that there is a lack of communication at there end as this is not just about harrassment - the account is in dispute I suggest Mr. so n' so go and check the records! Anyway, yesterday I had another letter from Mr. so n' so at AA personal Finance, again apologising that I am still unhappy about the repeated phone calls and that I still remain unhappy about there service!!! He is going to order me a copy of the original application form and agreement and also statement of account!!!!!!!!!!!!! What I want to clarify is - if they do indeed produce the documents at this late stage is it basically tough *itty for them, can they continue to persue this? They had thier chance to supply it when asked for and their 30 days were up on the 26th April for goodness sake!!!!!!!!!!! Can I still maintain that I am not liable as they did not comply within the lawful specified time period and have therefore committed an offence or will I have to continue paying like nothing has happened? They have been such complete and utter pigs it will kill me to have to bow out now and start paying them again - I was even getting ready to demand all payments made back so angry am I with them!!!!!!! Please, one desperate person here so all help very much appreciated. For more info on the background please take alook at my thread british gas loan charges. Ta Lynne

 

Sorry, but if they produce an agreement, then the default is satisfied. The fact that they have committed an offence does not alter anything.

[weaver440]

Someone please tell me rippedofagain is wrong!!!GULP!

The thing is the account was not in default at the start of this. I make my monthly payments over the phone ( don't get me wrong there has been a couple of times when there has been missed or late payments) but I had my handbag stolen along with everything in it and so on the day that I was due to make another payment I rang them and told them that it would be late and why! Over the next couple of days I had a letter charging me and this is when all the calls started. When all my cards were replaced I made the agreed monthly payment minus the charges but so incensed was I by this stage that it is when I started my quest. The loan monthly repayments did not stop until they had failed to comply with my request, then legally they had no right to persue the debt and nor did I acknowledge the debt.Surely it was they who defaulted, not me, I was only responding to their default:( What about the fact that if a copy of the agreement fails to be sent it negates any notice of default being served as required by the conditions of the consumer credit act 1974 Also, if this statement is correct " if the documentation were to be produced, you (the lender) will be aware the default notice serves to cancel any original terms and conditions.

 

Sorry for my doubting you rippedofagain, I may be grasping at straw here but gotta give it my best shot, I am sure you can understand:)

[pford]

Someone please tell me rippedofagain is wrong!!!GULP!

The thing is the account was not in default at the start of this. I make my monthly payments over the phone ( don't get me wrong there has been a couple of times when there has been missed or late payments) but I had my handbag stolen along with everything in it and so on the day that I was due to make another payment I rang them and told them that it would be late and why! Over the next couple of days I had a letter charging me and this is when all the calls started. When all my cards were replaced I made the agreed monthly payment minus the charges but so incensed was I by this stage that it is when I started my quest. The loan monthly repayments did not stop until they had failed to comply with my request, then legally they had no right to persue the debt and nor did I acknowledge the debt.Surely it was they who defaulted, not me, I was only responding to their default:( What about the fact that if a copy of the agreement fails to be sent it negates any notice of default being served as required by the conditions of the consumer credit act 1974 Also, if this statement is correct " if the documentation were to be produced, you (the lender) will be aware the default notice serves to cancel any original terms and conditions.

 

Sorry for my doubting you rippedofagain, I may be grasping at straw here but gotta give it my best shot, I am sure you can understand:)

 

im afraid he is right

 

only thing i can sugest did you report it to the police that your cards where stolen? if so you get a crime number for it they may be a bit more understanding then

[Peterbard]

But a creditor can omit the signatures from any copy sent under CCA s77/78 so there is no right to insist on a signed copy under these sections of the Act.

 

BS

hI B

 

Yes we know about about the regulation that allows them to leave off the signatures.

However there is nothngto say that you have to accept the copy sent as a true copy you could say that it would be impossible to verify it as such without a signature and also quote that they would need to provide the orriginal signed copy should the case go to court and a judge would take a dim view of them wasting court time by not presenting the documentaion as per pre action protocol 4-6

 

Best

regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

HI

The default has been lifted by them producing the documenty so they are free to pursue the agreement.

However if the account was not in default when they defaulted on the section 77 request (after 14 days from the request) then they should not have taken any action on the account in the period until they produced the agreement.So if they have issued a default in that period or charged any interest this would be invalid.

Regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

hI B

 

Yes we know about about the regulation that allows them to leave off the signatures.

However there is nothngto say that you have to accept the copy sent as a true copy you could say that it would be impossible to verify it as such without a signature and also quote that they would need to provide the orriginal signed copy should the case go to court and a judge would take a dim view of them wasting court time by not presenting the documentaion as per pre action protocol 4-6

 

Best

regards

Peter

Hi just had another lookat the letter ,you say their was no finantial information relating to you this would be required in a true copy.

 

Regards

Peter

[weaver440]

Thank you PFord and peter for your replies - not what I wanted to hear but hayho, such is life. There is one last thing though that is puzzling me - I ask them for my agreement - they have not sent it after 30 days so they have committed an offence, yes? One of my letters tho has now gone to a different dept and that dept apologises and 48 days later assures me that they will order my agreement to be sent to me. My question is, how long am I supposed to give them? Another 30 days from them saying they have ordered copies? Do i then complain again only to get a letter from another dept promising to send me the docs, am I then to give them 30 days too? My point is how long do you give them to produce the document before you know they don't have it and especially if they are not going to admit they don't have it! Do you understand where I am coming from - surely this is exactly what the 30 rule is about, giving what is considered a reasonable amount of time for documents to be produced and if they are not then thats it, tough if afterwards the person says " but we do have the documents - look, here they are". If they have them now then they had them 48+ days ago which is when they should have produced them. AAGGHHHHHHHHHH desperation.

 

lynne

[Peterbard]

Hi

Ignore their letters you set the time table in accorcande with the legislature they must stick to that do not be lulled into giving them more time.

On the other matter you did get my point about your default ,just to repeat they are not allowed to add interest to your account or default you whilst they are in default ,this may not apply to you but i thought it worth mentioning just in case you missed it.

 

Regards

Peter

[Pliny the Penuriosus]

It's important that if the creditor or DCA does not comply with your CCA request within the permitted time scale that you report them to the authorities.

 

It is also important that if they same occurs with your SAR that you report them to the ICO.

 

I have it on good authority that the ICO wants to know when companies fail to comply with the law. However I suspect that at the moment they don't realize the extent of the problem & when the complaints start arriving think & fast they may well regret that sentiment

[Peterbard]

Yes, that is correct - they would have to produce a signed copy in court - but only if you requested that evidence! I expect there are many CCJs obtained with no agreement paperwork because the debtor is too afraid to go to court or challenge the creditor!

 

But it is incorrect to suggest that a creditor has not complied with a s77/78 request because the copy sent does not show signatures!

 

BS

HI

In the case of no agreement the action would be unenforceable so the case would not be heard. The none declatration of the agreement in itself would be enough to stop the court from enforcing the contract.

 

The issues around section 77 signatures has been well discussed earlier in this thread.

 

Regads

Peter

[Pliny the Penuriosus]

Lynne they can only enforce the debt if

(a) They provide the agreement &

(b) As they are already in default, with the courts consent.

 

Whilst they do not provide the agreement they CANNOT enforce the debt

[davey77]

Hi Peterbard!

 

As you seem to be pretty good at discerning a 'good' document from a 'bad' one i wonder if you would like to cast your eye over the MBNA reply to my CCA i had today. When you have time.

 

Cheers! Davey

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/57846-debt-written-off-due-6.html

[zubo]

Thank you PFord and peter for your replies - not what I wanted to hear but hayho, such is life. There is one last thing though that is puzzling me - I ask them for my agreement - they have not sent it after 30 days so they have committed an offence, yes? One of my letters tho has now gone to a different dept and that dept apologises and 48 days later assures me that they will order my agreement to be sent to me. My question is, how long am I supposed to give them? Another 30 days from them saying they have ordered copies? Do i then complain again only to get a letter from another dept promising to send me the docs, am I then to give them 30 days too? My point is how long do you give them to produce the document before you know they don't have it and especially if they are not going to admit they don't have it! Do you understand where I am coming from - surely this is exactly what the 30 rule is about, giving what is considered a reasonable amount of time for documents to be produced and if they are not then thats it, tough if afterwards the person says " but we do have the documents - look, here they are". If they have them now then they had them 48+ days ago which is when they should have produced them. AAGGHHHHHHHHHH desperation.

 

lynne

 

Lynne

 

We are now finding that more and more CCPs are providing us with unsigned agreements and T&Cs and stating that they have complied.

My take on this is to state quite clearly that I wish them to provide me with a completely signed executed agreement because I do not wish to waste their time nor the court's time in proving something so fundamental. Therefore as Peter says, invoke cpr 4.6 (snippet is in CCA Workshop thread) and insist that before you accept any liability and resume payment you must have the signed executed agreement.

 

Z

[rippedoffagain]

SNIP---- if they do indeed produce the documents at this late stage is it basically tough *itty for them, can they continue to persue this? They had thier chance to supply it when asked for and their 30 days were up on the 26th April for goodness sake!!!!!!!!!!! Can I still maintain that I am not liable as they did not comply within the lawful ----SNIP

 

Until they supply an agreement they are in default, just because they say they will send one, doesn't let them off the hook.

 

Interesting about AA

 

I got a letter dated 11th from AA personal Finance ( underwriters for British gas Loans I think)

 

Could you tell us what address it is from?

[Smokey B]

I have a querey that I would like to run past you....

 

I recently had a Bank pass over a debt to a 3rd Party company for collection, (Approx £2600)... I didn't know any better and have recently finished paying this amount off, I never signed any credit agreements with this company and I was wondering if it would be too late to send a letter (plus my £1) to ask for the agreement in return.

 

If they could not produce this agreement would I be entitled to a refund to what I have paid out and have the defaults removed from my credit file?

[rippedoffagain]

I have a querey that I would like to run past you....

 

I recently had a Bank pass over a debt to a 3rd Party company for collection, (Approx £2600)... I didn't know any better and have recently finished paying this amount off, I never signed any credit agreements with this company and I was wondering if it would be too late to send a letter (plus my £1) to ask for the agreement in return.

 

If they could not produce this agreement would I be entitled to a refund to what I have paid out and have the defaults removed from my credit file?

 

Unfortunately since you have paid the account, they are not obliged to send a copy agreement. I know of one instance where a court allowed the DCA to keep monies paid to them as the judge deemed they were made voluntarily.

[Smokey B]

Damm!!

 

Thanks for the swift response.... and the info

[weaver440]

Until they supply an agreement they are in default, just because they say they will send one, doesn't let them off the hook.

 

Interesting about AA

 

 

 

Could you tell us what address it is from?

 

I surely can - its AA Personal Finance Ltd, City House, City Road, Chester. CH88 3AN

[weaver440]

Thank you to everyone for your replies. Rightly or wrongly I sent a letter on Fiday basically saying " I am in receipt of your letter regarding the above account. Your Company has had 51 days to produce the documentation requested and I have sent you several letters requesting such. If you have this documentation then please explain to me why it was not sent when requested back on the 7th March 2007? Could it be that you do not have it?

I have been extremely patient but unfortunately my patience has run out. In light of the fact that you have had plenty of time, if I have not received all the documentation that was asked for in my original letter dated 7th March 2007 within 7 working days from your receipt of this letter then I will be taking out a claim against you for the return of all monies paid"

 

I am now getting letters fron 2 different dept, British Gas and AA, both are at the same address! Anyway, my hunch is I will not get the signed agreement and I have threatened them with a court claim to get all monies paid back so my question is now that I have actually made the threat, can I do that, and what happens if once I do take out a claim against them they produce the documents - I know I would be liable for the loan etc but wouldn't a judge go absolutaley ballistic with them? I am really sorry if I am being dim but I know I do have a problem grasping things sometimes. once the 7 xtra days I have given them is up what should I do? would taking them to court be the next correct step?

[weaver440]

Lynne

 

We are now finding that more and more CCPs are providing us with unsigned agreements and T&Cs and stating that they have complied.

My take on this is to state quite clearly that I wish them to provide me with a completely signed executed agreement because I do not wish to waste their time nor the court's time in proving something so fundamental. Therefore as Peter says, invoke cpr 4.6 (snippet is in CCA Workshop thread) and insist that before you accept any liability and resume payment you must have the signed executed agreement.

 

Z

 

 

Hi Zubo and Peter,

 

Thanks for your responses, if you take a look at my thread British Gas loan charges it goes into far more detail, I posted on this thread because this is where everyone seems to hang out:rolleyes: I find responses come alot better here.

[conchy_joe]

hi pliny,reliable collections are way over their time limit with me. can you tell me who i should write to and is there a template for this type of letter...conchy.

[pugsley]

sorry I know this has been dealt with before, but do student overdraft's come under the CCA, mine has just been called in, can someone point me to what post/page the answer might be on. from reading before i.e. my memory I believe it doesn't come under the CCA, just need confirmation.

[Movingon]

sorry I know this has been dealt with before, but do student overdraft's come under the CCA, mine has just been called in, can someone point me to what post/page the answer might be on. from reading before i.e. my memory I believe it doesn't come under the CCA, just need confirmation.

 

There are dates; if your loan was taken out after then it does not come under the CCA - however before that it did. I can't remember what the dates are I'm afraid but 1998 seems to ring a bell? As always check before you leap.

a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a.

[rhsymonds]

Would taking them to court be the next correct step?

 

Rather you than me Weaver, Id just say im not paying anymore and request a statement showing £0 balance on the account. If they want the money, they can take you to court and lose, but id rather not get to that stage because you know they would suddenly find your agreement the day before the hearing and screw you right over, making you liable for costs and the full debt.

 

 

Im about to send a non-compliance letter to HSBC, as they have not provided me with an 'executed' or signed copy (just a pre-contractual agreement) after the 42 days.

 

Would love to hear from anyone in a similar boat.

[conchy_joe]

at this moment i'm totally confused....first it seemed that if the dca doesn't provide the copy as requested within 12 working days then the debt is unenforceable, now it seems that they don't have to send a "true signed copy",just a blank photocopy and furthermore it seems that they can come up with the original at any time in the future.is there a time where you can say .."ok,i'm out of the woods now".banks are easy meat and i thought that dealing with dca's was black and white but it's suddenly entered a grey zone.can someone shine a light for us please. :confused: