Again vs. HSBC

[meagain]

Presenting the case of M. E. Again vs. HSBC Bank plc.

 

Long story short:

 

12 May: Presented Data Protection Act s10 request at branch in person, after about 30 minutes waiting around, walked out with a full set of statements for my current account, credit card enquiries referred to Card Services. Advised there might be a charge, decided to withhold payment in case there isn't one. Total charges £190, interest £8 (large overdraft is interest free).

 

24 May: Received full set of credit card statements via post, informed that no charge was made for the statements, but I'd be liable for a £10 fee if I needed more information. Total charges £200, interest £75.

 

1 June: Delivered prelim request (a.k.a. "Shocked and appalled") in person.

 

12 June: No response to last letter. Find I was hit for £20 at the weekend, and duly add it to the total, with extra interest is £471. LBA (a.k.a. "No, I'm not joking") delivered in person. Clarify that with interest charged at the bank's own rates (any term binding on me must also be binding on the bank, hence I must also be allowed to charge interest on unauthorised loans), the total is now £580.

 

My next step will depend on any offer made:

• Offer for the full £471: Accept
  
• Conditional offer £471: Invite unconditional offer, stay of execution
  
• £400 or over: Reject, state I will not settle for less than £471, stay of execution
  
• Less than £400: Reject, and assert additional interest
  

 

The periods I have stated in the prelim and LBA are 10 days (I am reliably informed that anything over 7 is reasonable). Stay of execution will be granted for 10 days on receipt of a reasonable offer in the hope that they'll come up with better. Also, should it get to court and I offered such an extension, it may be seen that I have made a reasonable attempt to get a settlement before going to court - particularly since I'd have to borrow money from friends and family to get there.

 

I would consider any offer over £400 to be a good starting point, but won't really settle for much less than I'm owed, however, anything less than this I would consider to be nothing short of an insult. As for the interest, since contracts are reciprocal, and I am bound to pay them interest on unauthorised borrowing, I am equally entitled to charge interest for the same, at the same rates. If it goes to court, I claim this rate interest with 8% as an alternative (again, demonstrating that I may be reasonable) - and of course the £150 in filing and allocation fees.

 

Playtime is over, and I want my ball back! While I remember, since the letter probably won't be read until tomorrow anyway, best grab the parachute while I'm waiting for the plane to reach the drop zone. Recommendations? Need to move a large overdraft, preferably without having to pay interest on it (as a student) or reduce the limit - the prospect of an increased limit would be a bonus.

[overcharged_consumer]

Help us to help you by

NOT using your signature as a colourful weapon of mass distraction.

It's not big, and it's not clever.

LOL, so it's a stupid dwarf then is it?

Seriously, good luck. Sounds like you know what you want and you know how to get it.

OC

[HSBCrusher]

Hello Meagain.

All the best with your claim.

keep us all posted,

No 2 claims are exactly the same, so the more the merrier!

[meagain]

Letter delivered to out-of-term address, dated 13 June 2006 (I shall assume the LBA hadn't reached the Service Quality Team by this point - it was only in branch at 4pm the previous day).

 

HSBC is, however, mindful of the management time and irrecoverable legal costs that it may incur in relation to such a claim. For those commercial reasons alone, and without admission of liability whatsoever, HSBC is prepared to make a payment to you in the sum of £351 representing the charges applied in full and final settlement of this matter.

 

It's less than the claim, however, in their defence:

• The charges themselves, before any overdraft or credit card interest are £390, and £20 of that was repaid previously.
  
• Since they hadn't received the LBA by this point, it is a mere £98.56 short of the original claim.
  
• As much as I'd like it all back (plus additional interest), I would have to borrow money to proceed to court.
  

 

I suppose I could say that while this is settled, the terms of this agreement imply that they extend only to this claim, and do not rule out future action (since I suppose I'll be charged again at some point), so I might be able to recover the difference later, with more interest, when I am financially more secure. In particular, I know that if I file the claim (£30/50, depending on which figure the court uses in deciding the fee, which I can just about afford) and then have to go through allocation, I risk forfeiting the claim if I can't raise the £100 court fee in time. In addition, I risk becoming estranged from my family for turning my nose up at this, since I'm currently looking for work and not entitled to benefits.

 

On this basis, I'm tempted to take this offer, purely because I need the money now. £351 now can do a lot to help me that £500-600 3 months down the line can't, in particular it can prevent a lot of damage that I might suffer between now and then. Advice? The deadline is "10 working days", which from the letter date would be the 26th.

[HSBCrusher]

Well, it's up to you really.

If you were to claim again sometime in the future, I would say that account closure would be a distinct possability, so if you want the rest of the money I would say that you need to do it now.

I would guess it would be extremley unlikley you will be having to fork out the £100 for court allocation, this is very small fry indeed for HSBC.

If you put in your MCOL, you are about 2 weeks from your money, but of course, no guarantees on that.

 

So, it's up to you to weigh up the pros and cons.

No-one will think less of you if you do take the money and run!

 

Crusher

[meagain]

Well, it's up to you really.

If you were to claim again sometime in the future, I would say that account closure would be a distinct possability, so if you want the rest of the money I would say that you need to do it now.

 

One issue I have to consider is that I'll need my family's support on this. If I take the offer, I go on to Lloyds TSB with only half of them in support (my father and some 3 others in his part of the family work for LTSB, and a conflict of interest might cost them their jobs, so I won't be involving them in any way in that). If I turn it down, I go on to LTSB, and then Clydesdale Financial Services (Jessops card - hopefully not related to Clydesdale Bank), all on my tod.

[fivelaws]

In your own words...

 

I would consider any offer over £400 to be a good starting point, but won't really settle for much less than I'm owed, however, anything less than this I would consider to be nothing short of an insult.

 

Less than a week ago as well.... Something must have changed?

[HSBCrusher]

I must concur with my most learned freind 5laws...

It would not be difficult to get all your money.

 

Of what sort of support you you speak, I assume it's more than just moral...

[Janet-M]

No matter how much informal advice is given the final decision is your own so you must consider all eventualities .

[younganfree]

I risk becoming estranged from my family for turning my nose up at this, since I'm currently looking for work and not entitled to benefits. quote]

 

This is a tough one dude.

You obviously don't want to lose family over a few quid. My opinion is family is important. However, this is purely my opinion, and I'm not trying to sway you one way or the other.

Is their issue simply that you are unemployed and benefitless? Have you actually discussed this with them, or do you just think this would be their reaction?

It's a moral dilemma - family considerations over principle.

You say the money would be more useful to you now than down the line, would this tip the balance for you?

Sorry dude, you really are on your own on this one. Only you can weigh all the options and make a decision based on the facts.

Ultimately, it's your decision.

Good luck anyway .

[younganfree]

I risk becoming estranged from my family for turning my nose up at this, since I'm currently looking for work and not entitled to benefits. quote]

 

This is a tough one dude.

 

You obviously don't want to lose family over a few quid. My opinion is family is important. However, this is purely my opinion, and I'm not trying to sway you one way or the other.

 

Is their issue simply that you are unemployed and benefitless? Have you actually discussed this with them, or do you just think this would be their reaction?

 

It's a moral dilemma - family considerations over principle.

 

You say the money would be more useful to you now than down the line, would this tip the balance for you?

 

Sorry dude, you really are on your own on this one. Only you can weigh all the options and make a decision based on the facts.

Ultimately, it's your decision.

 

Good luck anyway .

[meagain]

Less than a week ago as well.... Something must have changed?

 

My moving-out date got shifted forward by about a fortnight. :o

 

I would have considered an offer of less than £400, having upped the amount in the LBA to just under £600, to be an insult (being around 2/3 of the amount), however, it's reasonable to assume that when this offer was fired out on the morning of the 13th, the service centre hadn't received the LBA (delivered to the branch after 4pm the previous day, and retained there for later action). My threshold on the original £450 had been £300. Since the offer was above that, and my circumstances suggest that I can't afford to push all the way, I have decided to accept the offer.

 

It's worth noting that the £20 immediately before the LBA was corrected the following day as an error, however, within a week of me sending in my acceptance, I've been hit for £25 on my credit card (which as a result is now over-limit). Of course, once I'm in a position to move my account, I can take them for the balance of my claim, since I figure I could argue that they are not maintaining my account in a lawful manner, and thus in breach of an implied term of the settlement. In fact, in accepting the offer, I included text to the following effect in a covering letter:

 

I trust that you will in future be running my account in accordance with the law, and that acceptance of this offer will neither affect the statutory rights nor excuse from responsibility either myself or the Bank.

 

I also "thanked" them for their "sincere offer", noting that other institutions had been offering only "token gestures under the guise of 'goodwill payments'".

 

In the meantime, I need to see if my statements from Lloyds have arrived at the originally-designated branch, and if I can get them moved via internal post to the branch across the road from where I am sitting typing this.

 

Lloyds are next, and I'll be trying to shave time off wherever I can to get it done quickly. As I mentioned, I have close family members working there, and while I have told them I'll be going to great lengths to make sure they're not involved, their jobs are potentially at risk, so the sooner that one is over, the better.

[fivelaws]

Fair play.

 

Nice result on balance. Good luck with the next one!

[meagain]

I have read in various places that the bank might try to use the repayment to buy my silence. I'm somewhat concerned that a week after they had received the letter (it was even recorded on my account notes, according to the call centre wallah), they haven't even so much as acknowledged that they've received it.

 

I'm tempted to use both of the above as cause to withdraw from the offer, as while I was reasonably happy to settle for £350 with no liability (though under protest), any more restrictions and delays are unacceptable. Striking out clauses in the final paperwork before returning is implicitly rejecting the offer and making a new counter-offer back to them - which could be technically what I have done by enclosing the covering letter in the first place. Oh well ...

 

In summary, it might not be over yet.

 

Which reminds me, around 6 weeks after contacting Lloyds asking for statements (and waiting 3 weeks for them to tell me I need to nominate a branch) I still don't have my statements from them. Cue another nasty call to India ...

[fivelaws]

Sheesh!

 

This ones got more twist and turns than a twisty turny thing.

 

What you gonna do next? Wait for a reply/cheque or start pushing?

[meagain]

What you gonna do next?

 

See if I would be able to borrow £150 from a pensioner, to see whether the option of court action would even be open to me in the first place. I've still not got a job (), one half of the family is out of the country on holiday, and the other works for a bank. That, and see if I can't stroll into my bank and broach the subject of my credit card while clutching a copy of UTCCR (Speaking of which, I wonder if we can get injunctions under s.12?)

[meagain]

So, Thursday afternoon I walk into my currently-local branch, brandishing a nastygram and copies of my latest calculations, after 20 minutes waiting by the newly-refurbished ground floor (which somewhat resembles a TARDIS - for a start, if you don't know that you have to look behind the bank of machines in the centre, you can't find the counter!) was collected by the "Sales and Service" manager.

 

Presented the letter. Long story short:

 

He said "And what do you want from this?"

"My money back." I replied.

"I won't be able to do that right now."

"I'm aware of that. This has been ongoing for a while now. You have that letter because of a lack of progress."

"Oh. Well, I see a letter here sent out making an offer."

"Yes. I returned that, and haven't had a response."

"Right. According to this, it was actioned this morning, and the £351 should go into your account in the overnights tonight."

"Ah. Okay. Er ... Well, er, ..."

"Shall I send this on anyway?"

"Do you have a pencil?"

"Sure." *manager fumbles for a pencil*

"Thanks." *I do some quick calculations on the summary statement*

"That leaves around £231 outstanding."

"Shall I pass this on to Service Quality anyway?"

"Hmm... I suppose so. I'll get hold of them separately myself to clarify my position, once I know what it is."

 

Overall, the encounter was very pleasant, and the face-to-face contact I've had with the bank has been good on the whole (unlike at Lloyds, where I attracted nasty looks and a sarcastic tone from the female member of staff who accepted my DPA request). Despite all the fuss, I have to say that over the years, the branch staff have generally been a pleasure to deal with. When they tell me that much of the stuff I go in for could have been dealt with over the phone, I tell them that the service just happens to be much better in the branch.

 

Still, that leaves me in a pickle. Do I still go on pursuing a balance from charges + OD interest of around £100? Can I still push for the £120 or so reciprocal interest (charged at 14.8% rather 8% - an interesting technicality in contract law)? My thoughts are that if I still don't get satisfaction, I go to court for the full original amount of £470 (or thereabouts) plus interest, noting that part payment of £351 has been received, thus the balance is around £120 + interest on £470 (since they've not paid my interest on the £351 ). The last letter said I would head to the court if it's not sorted by COP on the 6th, but of course I don't actually have to be there first thing on the morning of the 7th ;-) so I figure I should seek to better inform myself before proceeding.

[maverik1979]

 

He said "And what do you want from this?"

"My money back." I replied.

"I won't be able to do that right now."

"I'm aware of that. This has been ongoing for a while now. You have that letter because of a lack of progress."

"Oh. Well, I see a letter here sent out making an offer."

"Yes. I returned that, and haven't had a response."

"Right. According to this, it was actioned this morning, and the £351 should go into your account in the overnights tonight."

"Ah. Okay. Er ... Well, er, ..."

"Shall I send this on anyway?"

"Do you have a pencil?"

-"No, there for brand new customers only"

"Thanks." *I do some quick calculations on the summary statement*

"That leaves around £231 outstanding."

"Shall I pass this on to Service Quality anyway?"

"Hmm... I suppose so. I'll get hold of them separately myself to clarify my position, once I know what it is."

[meagain]

"Do you have a pencil?"

-"No, there for brand new customers only"

 

Well spotted

[meagain]

Here goes. Tonight, I will head home and recalculate the remaining balance and pending interest. Since I have evidence that a further charge was issued merely 24 hours after the letter offering a settlement, and my covering letter included rather a nice spiel about rights and responsibilities, I could argue that it was an implied term of the settlement, just as it was of the contract, that they would act within the law, and that the new charge demonstrates a lack of good faith on the part of the bank (evident from that charge). Alternatively, I could argue that the charge was not covered by the settlement, and exercise my reserved right to pursue the difference between the original claim and the settlement (it is a statutory right, one which the bank has agreed to respect by not rejecting my acceptance letter). I hope to have been to the Court by the end of the week to file for the remaining money.

 

Because I am pushing for contractual rather than statutory interest, I will need to include the amount in the claim, which leaves it at around £250 (and thus still worth going to court for). I also understand that should the bank wish to defend, I won't need to pay the allocation fee (as the amount is less than £1500). In the event that it goes to this, I will probably seek out a buddy.

[meagain]

In pursuing the difference, there have been some developments. The credit card have charged me some more. I asked for it back, but they refused to reverse the charges unless I provided a valid reason for them to do so, and told me that "It's my money and I want it all back!" wasn't good enough.

 

I have had the usual offer (fair and reasonable, full and final, without prejudice to a right they don't have in the first place, etc.), this time for £174. While I'm not happy with the conditions, I'm again tempted to take it:

 

1. It's something coming in (this time credited to my CC balance - no overlimit fee).

2. Current charges to date are £402. Charges + interest = £480. This offer + previous payment = £525.

3. If they pull a fast one as they did last time, I can always "reallocate" the repayment on an interest-first basis, and use the fact that they have settled twice and immediately made further charges as valid grounds for refusing any settlement they might make in future.

 

I'm tempted to put this to rest, having obtained a result that is more than I would have got in court with 8%, but less than contractual would have given me - the remaining £75 on the claim would essentially be a matter of high-rate interest, and therefore pure profit for me.

 

All I have to do is persuade them to remove any adverse notes from my public credit file - threatening to move my card elsewhere, and deprive them of the valuable income they would otherwise derive from these charges.

 

Next stop: Lloyds TSB - if this was anything to go by, it'll be March before that one finishes!

[jamesp5377]

Letter delivered to out-of-term address, dated 13 June 2006 (I shall assume the LBA hadn't reached the Service Quality Team by this point - it was only in branch at 4pm the previous day).

 

 

 

It's less than the claim, however, in their defence:

• The charges themselves, before any overdraft or credit card interest are £390, and £20 of that was repaid previously.
  
• Since they hadn't received the LBA by this point, it is a mere £98.56 short of the original claim.
  
• As much as I'd like it all back (plus additional interest), I would have to borrow money to proceed to court.

I suppose I could say that while this is settled, the terms of this agreement imply that they extend only to this claim, and do not rule out future action (since I suppose I'll be charged again at some point), so I might be able to recover the difference later, with more interest, when I am financially more secure. In particular, I know that if I file the claim (£30/50, depending on which figure the court uses in deciding the fee, which I can just about afford) and then have to go through allocation, I risk forfeiting the claim if I can't raise the £100 court fee in time. In addition, I risk becoming estranged from my family for turning my nose up at this, since I'm currently looking for work and not entitled to benefits.

 

On this basis, I'm tempted to take this offer, purely because I need the money now. £351 now can do a lot to help me that £500-600 3 months down the line can't, in particular it can prevent a lot of damage that I might suffer between now and then. Advice? The deadline is "10 working days", which from the letter date would be the 26th.

 

I took on HSBC and was offered £1995 out of the £2190 I demaded (plus interest). Got the same letter as above. Accepted it for the same reasons. Going to go after some credit card companies now.lol

[jamesp5377]

I took on HSBC and was offered £1995 out of the £2190 I demaded (plus interest). Got the same letter as above. Accepted it for the same reasons. Going to go after some credit card companies now.lol