Help - Advice -missing money!!

[seve]

Hi to everyone.

 

Can someone give me some advice please or redirect to another forum.

Heres the story, it seems that someone/person have hacked into my brother-in-laws laptop and gained info on his bank account and betting account.

They have transfered a large amount of cash ( 5k approx) from his bank account to his bookmakers account and gambled the money (all of it!).

The bank are saying that they are not liable and the bookmakers are saying the same. He has reported it to the police and spoken to a solicitor but it they have said he is on weak ground. This is the story as i know it. can anyone give me any advice on where he stands or what course of action he could take.

 

Thanks

Seve

[powelll]

He needs to formally dispute the transaction with the bank and they are obliged to investigate. This isn'y my area to be honest so hopefully someone else will be along but the bank are the way to go initially.

[bally35]

Err and if they had won with his money, it would have been his winnings.

Now why would anyone hack into an account and not transfer it into their own name?

Instead, they went to his bookies and gambled from his account.

Sounds rather odd to me!!!

Are you sure that ireally was hacked into?

[seve]

I know it sounds odd i have thought that already, But i do know my brother-in-law and he is a honest guy. However they have done it, they have gained info from somewhere that has enabled them to transfer money from his bank account to his bookmaker a/c and spend that money. Even the bookies have admitted that all the bets were alot larger than normal and betted on things that he never bets on. He thinks the info was gained from his computer mainly because he had a lot of virus problems a couple of months ago.

thanks

[PKea]

Err and if they had won with his money, it would have been his winnings.

Now why would anyone hack into an account and not transfer it into their own name?

Instead, they went to his bookies and gambled from his account.

Sounds rather odd to me!!!

Are you sure that ireally was hacked into?

 

My thoughts exactly

 

I'm not going to criticise you but

 

Not only would they have had to access his laptop and an internet connection.

They would need his bank details, username password, (which for the 2 online accounts i have require at least 3 bits of info)

Thay would then need his username and password for his betting account.

 

If you are going to go to all that trouble, you woudl just empty his account into another account.

 

Sounds a bit fishy to me,

 

I dont know the person and i am not wishing to cast aspertions or doubts on their character, but if he has a bookmakers account and is a gambler..could he be trying to cover his tracks after gamblimng 5K away.

[bally35]

The only other thing I can think of is that he may have left info around home, such as password etc . or at another stage let someone use his id .

If this is the case, then legally he probaly does not have leg to stand on except against the friend, neighbour , relative etc who took the money in first place.

And yeah it was the fact that he had a bookie account already which concerned me.

Do you have any eveidence of him actually consulting all these people or just his word for it

[borisbeaver]

Something smells fishy and it's not the wife's apple crumble.

 

As mentioned before, why transfer the money from the brother-in-laws bank account to the brother-in-laws betting account.

 

If the idea was theft, then it would be a simple way to transfer the money to another bank account. Sending it to the betting system is a way that would lose the thief money.

 

Also, if there were winnings, then these would be transfered back into your brother-in-laws account.

[seve]

As i have said i know it sounds odd, but whoever did it did gain this info including his mother maiden name!! I know he hasn't done it i was with him when the first transaction was done (2100 hrs on a saturday night). I don't which to offend but i am trying to get advise on the situation not the rights or wrongs or how and who did it

rgds

[borisbeaver]

Who does he bank with. This would be important as you say the transactions were made online.

 

I used to work for Barclays and help write some of the earlier web stuff. Most banks log ip addresses and routing information as part of their security protocols.

[seve]

Hi,

 

He banks with HSBC

[PKea]

As i have said i know it sounds odd, but whoever did it did gain this info including his mother maiden name!! I know he hasn't done it i was with him when the first transaction was done (2100 hrs on a saturday night). I don't which to offend but i am trying to get advise on the situation not the rights or wrongs or how and who did it

rgds

 

How did you find out the time?

 

Get details from the bookie as they will have exact time & date of transaction also most payment processors now record the ip address too.

The online banking may only show the date is was debited from the account and not the actual transcation date.

Where was the laptop when you were with him?

Also have you seen all the details he is claiming>

[seve]

Hi PKea,

 

The bank told him the time he mentioned to me last night. The laptop was at home. they are in the process of moving so he hadn't used for approx 4 weeks as they are not at the address where is b/band was registered.

[bally35]

Advice, You need to establish if ANYONE else known to him had access to these details.

Whilst I appreciate that you think we are pointing fingers,you have to understand that the story does sound rather suspicious.

On a number of occasions (when I worked for banks), people have made complaints about ATMS , card transactions etc, only to find out that they have given passwor, pin numbers etc to other family members who have then abused that trust.

[PKea]

Which Police force did he report it to?

This is fraud?

What did the Police say?

[seve]

Hi Bally35,

yes i totally understand that this story sounds v.odd and difficult to believe. I only know the basics of the story which i have told above, there maybe finer details that he has not told me, but he has without doubt 5k that has gone from his bank a/c and which he did not authorise.

[PKea]

Hi Bally35,

. I only know the basics of the story which i have told above, there maybe finer details that he has not told me,.

 

Basically all we can do is speculate on what you have told us.

With all the facts it might be clearer and not sound so fishy, but unfortunately we can only draw conclusions from what you have said and give our opinions.

 

Paul

[seve23]

hi,

 

i'm not sure what you or anyone else has to speculate about, i am only asking for any advice or guidance on how to rectify approach/deal with this.

facts:- a/c holder did not authorise any transactions.

money taken from his account without authorisation.

transfered to a bookmakers account and used

whoever did this found out and used personal details eg mother's maiden name etc.

it has been reported to the police.

spoken to solicitor

crime/incident ref given by police

Money has gone and he did not spend/gamble it.

laptop not used for 4 weeks as moving so no internet connection not available.

 

Anyway he went CB this afternoon and was given some advice. Bank is liable apparently.

 

thanks

seve23

[bally35]

The Bank is only liable, if he did not share password etc with anyone else.He bears a responsibilty to look after these. That is why I asked.You do not know the fine details of the case.

I am sorry People on this forum , as intelligent human beings will make assumptions.

We do not know your brother-in-law' nor you for that matter.Therefore, we will be naturally suspicious.

Hand on heart time. Are you COMPLETELY CONVINCED that he is not culpable in any way for what has happened?

Also if you throw scenarios like this onto an open anonymous forum , please expect differing opinions from your own.

No one here was being deliberately antagonistic towards you, just trying to establish what happened.

I suggest that if you do not understand the above, please do not try to find advice from CAG

[PKea]

IMHO and as Bally has said

If he did not share passwords.

Do you know how his bookie account works?

Do you log into it and add money through a card, or do your have to transfer from the bank account.

 

Also I think the laptop not used for 4 weeks part is irelevant, you can log on anywhere, cyber cafe, library, anywhere nowadays even mobile phone.

 

The bookmaker will have logged the IP address of the transcation, to combat fraud such as this. Once the police or the bank gets this it will show where the transcation was made, then by the police contacting the IP provider can find out who logged on their. As they will probably done other things at the same time, read email, access other sites, it will most probably reveal who made the transaction.

 

Again are you sure..

 

A addict will NOT admit they have a problem

 

P

[borisbeaver]

The Bank is only liable, if he did not share password etc with anyone else.He bears a responsibilty to look after these. That is why I asked.You do not know the fine details of the case.

I am sorry People on this forum , as intelligent human beings will make assumptions.

We do not know your brother-in-law' nor you for that matter.Therefore, we will be naturally suspicious.

Hand on heart time. Are you COMPLETELY CONVINCED that he is not culpable in any way for what has happened?

Also if you throw scenarios like this onto an open anonymous forum , please expect differing opinions from your own.

No one here was being deliberately antagonistic towards you, just trying to establish what happened.

I suggest that if you do not understand the above, please do not try to find advice from CAG

In some cases forum members will play devils advocate because of the type of question and the information provided.

[bally35]

Gosh are you suggesting that some of us just like to argue (ask Mr Bally, who will confirm that apparently my degree was in arguing)!!!

 

But of course he is wrong!!!

[Runk]

Not only would they have had to access his laptop and an internet connection.

They would need his bank details, username password, (which for the 2 online accounts i have require at least 3 bits of info)

Thay would then need his username and password for his betting account.

Speaking as someone who works in IT. I can tell you that collecting that information from many computers is so simple a child could do it.

 

People who do this often rely on the ignorance of many computer users and often come up trumps.

If you have a computer that is connected to ANY form of 'always on' connection, such as broadband, and you dont have an effective firewall and an effective up to date anti virus program, then you are wide open.

 

The software to do this is freely avialable on the internet for nothing, and a very very little network knowledge is all you need.

Applications such as trojan programs that grant a remote user remote admin access to your hard drive and operating system, remote control programs that allow a remote user to see your screen and what you are doing in a window on a remote machine and actually take control of your computer, keyboard and mouse and keyloggers that record all keystrokes and the text boxes the input is entered and then send it off to a remote server that collects all the information are commonplace and more often than not in use by schoolkids who think its funny to do things like this.

These programs scan thousands and thousands of computers in one go and the odds are that they find at least one unprotected one pretty much every scan.

You wouldnt believe the number of people who I hear say "Whats anti virus and a firewall? Do I need those then?"

 

If the first poster has no firewall or an old out of date version of one, and a non apdated or non functioning anti virus program, then what he describes is entirely possible and extremely simple. And if its kids that have done it that may explain why they simply gambled it rather than transfer it to another account.

 

However proving it may be hard unless you can get a police computer expert to look at the computer and verify that it has a keylogger or trojan running.

 

From a legal point of view, assuming that this is what might have happened, i think you are going to be on a losing battle trying to claim it back, in much the same way that your home insurance wont cover you if you go out and leave all the doors and windows of your house wide open, and come home to find it empty. "I didnt know I should have locked it up" isnt going to cut it as a claim. I could be wrong but Im not aware of a case that sets a precident on this? Maybe someone can find one.

 

That all probably isnt much help, but it might give you something to ask the police to look at.

 

But be aware, if you do have the right protection and uninstall it and delete all traces then try to claim the above, someone who knows what to look at on your PC will find you out very quickly.

[seve]

Runk, Thanks for that pice of info. What i do know is that he did not get any anti-virus programs UNTIL after the laptop started getting virus (many of them). Hand on heart i know he didn't gamble it away.

What you have said is actually pretty worrying if it is that easy.

 

Thanks to all