Civil Enforcement Ltd (again!)

[pin1onu]

Penalties they are indeed, it was a (poor) joke on the PPC [problem] itself...

They can win the jackpot and get both. :grin: If the directors get taken to court they can get a fine of up to £5000 and the penalties remain in force. A double whammy.

 

BTW if you want to report anyone for late filing of accounts - speak to the compliance section of Companies House.

 

If you're feeling really mischevious it might worth drawing the company to the attention of HMR&C as they may well be late in filing their company tax return. (see this link here for the penalties involved in that)

[weblawyer]

Awaiting court action by G24 Ltd. in order that the legal issues can be clarified and determined by the court and a counterclaim made against G24 Ltd.

 

G24 please hurry up!

[kimmyrose23]

Hi Everyone,

 

I am quite desperate for some help! My dad (as registered keeper of my car) received a parking contravention enforcement notice from Civil Enforcement Ltd, after I (the driver) parked my car in a car park at the local train station. I bought a ticket which entitled me to park in the train station car park for a whole day but unbeknown to me, I had actually parked in the adjacent car park for Co-op customers. This car park is seperated by a railing no more than two feet high and I parked just two car parking spaces from this railing. However despite buying a ticket, sticking it to my windscreen, and luckily, keeping it, this company wanted me to pay £150 within 28 days, or £75 if paid within 14 days.

 

I sent them a letter, accompanied by a copy of my ticket, stating that I had bought a valid parking ticket for £3.90 and was therefore under no obligation to pay. This letter was sent before I had realised my error in parking in the Co-op car park and not the train station one.

 

They have now sent me another letter stating that the PCN remains valid and that the ticket was correctly issued in accordance with the terms and conditions stated. They are also threatening to make proceedings against me in a county court.

 

I am worried that as I did park in error, I now do not have a leg to stand on. However I am so reluctant to pay, especially already having purchased a valid ticket!

 

Any help would be much appreciated! x

[pin1onu]

Hi Everyone,

 

I am quite desperate for some help! My dad (as registered keeper of my car) received a parking contravention enforcement notice from Civil Enforcement Ltd, after I (the driver) parked my car in a car park at the local train station. I bought a ticket which entitled me to park in the train station car park for a whole day but unbeknown to me, I had actually parked in the adjacent car park for Co-op customers. This car park is seperated by a railing no more than two feet high and I parked just two car parking spaces from this railing. However despite buying a ticket, sticking it to my windscreen, and luckily, keeping it, this company wanted me to pay £150 within 28 days, or £75 if paid within 14 days.

 

I sent them a letter, accompanied by a copy of my ticket, stating that I had bought a valid parking ticket for £3.90 and was therefore under no obligation to pay. This letter was sent before I had realised my error in parking in the Co-op car park and not the train station one.

 

They have now sent me another letter stating that the PCN remains valid and that the ticket was correctly issued in accordance with the terms and conditions stated. They are also threatening to make proceedings against me in a county court.

 

I am worried that as I did park in error, I now do not have a leg to stand on. However I am so reluctant to pay, especially already having purchased a valid ticket!

 

Any help would be much appreciated! x

This is a private invoice for an alleged breach of contract and is un-enforcable. It is not like a council issued Penalty Charge Notice or police issued Fixed Penalty Notice. It has no authority.

 

Have a read of the private parking charges sticky at the top of this forum.

 

You should write to them telling that you won't be paying and then ignore their drivel. Use the template letters in the stickies section what to do if you wrote first.

 

Be prepared for a load of bumf which threatens all manner of things but will eventually go away. Court, ccj's, bailiffs etc are standard threats which they use. They're relying on fear and ignorance. Remember they're in breach of case law by charging ridiculous amounts which amount to penalty charges. So stand your gruund and ignore.

[Al27]

Well, I wouldn't write again at all personally.

 

There is no 'appeal procedure' as you've found out. This is a private company with no powers. It's a [problem].

 

• do not pay

• do not contact them

• ignore any letters you receive, no matter how threatening

• they will go away after 5 or 6

• they will not take you to court

• don't be concerned about the last couple of letters that will be from debt collectors - they will go away if you ignore

 

Don't pay any attention to threats of court action, CCJs, court costs, terms and conditions or the amount they want escalating. They are merely trying to scare you into paying. That's why they stay in business, by parasiting on ordinary people who don't know their legal rights.

 

Contract law does not work on the basis of a sign saying "if you do x, you agree to pay £x". They are only entitled to actual losses incurred for alleged breach of contract ie. £1 if you overstay in a pay and display, for example. Their losses from you staying in their free car park are exactly £0.

 

It's not you that doesn't have a leg to stand on - it's them.

 

Don't pay!

[vans man]

Hi all,

I've been following these posts for a while and thought you would all like this tale. I manage a fleet of vans and one of them was ticketed by one of these enforecement companies. I wrote back saying that as the registered keeper I was not responsible for the ticket, they would have to speak to the driver. I offered to name the driver for an admin fee of £35, thinking that would be the last of it. What do you know, they paid us £35 .

The driver now has the ticket but we will pursue that using the tactics on this forum. I have already had 2 such tickets cancelled recently.

So at the moment they are £35 down on the deal.

 

on another occasion at a different site a van was ticketed because it had overstayed the parking time. I was able to use our satellite tracker system to show that the van had been there for 8 minutes only. So these guys are not above lying to hit their targets.

 

cheers

[Al27]

That's incredible.

 

Even if you gave them the correct driver information, they are not liable for a penny because the enforcement company is only owed any actual losses they've incurred - they cannot pursue the driver for a financial penalty.

 

Usually the advice is never to contact them because the chances of them cancelling a ticket are so remote. You seem to have a knack of dealing with these scamsters though!

[pin1onu]

That's incredible.

 

Even if you gave them the correct driver information, they are not liable for a penny because the enforcement company is only owed any actual losses they've incurred - they cannot pursue the driver for a financial penalty.

 

Usually the advice is never to contact them because the chances of them cancelling a ticket are so remote. You seem to have a knack of dealing with these scamsters though!

Now there's a novel thought - giving them the opportunity to pay for the information. Might make the effort of writing to them worthwhile.

 

New template letter.

 

Dear [sir/blood-sucking parasite] (delete as appropriate)

 

RE: Letter dated [dd/mm/yyyy]

 

I have received your letter as the Registered Keeper of the vehicle. I confirm I am the registered keeper but would ask you to take this matter up with the driver at the time.

 

I am happy to supply you with the the drivers details. The details will be released onlyu on payment of a £35 administration fee. I accept postal orders, Bankers cheques or payment via paypal. The details will only be released on clearance of this payment.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Comments

[vans man]

Thats pretty much what I wrote to them. I created a form on letter headed paper and sent it to them. the cheque came back in just over a week.

Every ticket now will be getting the same treatment.

 

Van Man

[FrazzledMum]

Hello. My husband received one of these notices yesterday but it was me that was driving. It was a Euro car park and the fine is £70 or £40 if paid within 14 days. I hope someone can help me because I am a terrible worrier. I am also pregnant and wondering whether it is worth the fight for £40 as don't want to cause any undue stress to the baby. But I am angered at the level of the charge.

 

I parked in the car park in town which is free provided you don't stay more than 3 hours. I knew this. Before the 3 hours were up, I moved to another space thinking this was ok, like you can do on meter parking. So yes, I was in the car park for nearly 5 hours but not in the same spot. May I also add when I moved it, the car park was not busy so was not hogging a space.

 

I did not get a ticket on my windscreen but have received this letter 25 days later. Should they have ticketed my windscreen at the time?

 

I made mistake of calling them to explain that i moved the car but they said this didn't count so they know it was me (the wife) and they also have my phone number now as I had to leave message for them to ring back.

 

I understand from what people say, if you ignore it will go away. However, will you have a mark against credit rating? As i am not working and this fine has gone to my husband, any future mortgage etc we apply for will be in his name so don't want a black mark.

 

Also are there any cases which have made it to court? I also couldn't bear anyone knocking on my door. I know it sounds defeatist, but is it worth the fight for £40? I have read Pete's piece on contract law and understand what is being said but I am concerned in case I fall outside of what he is saying so have detailed my case here.

 

can anyone advise? Help really appreciated.

[lamma]

1 Stop worrying - there is no need at all.

2) its a free car park so their losses are zero (well actually the landowner's not the PPCs). So any amount they are claiming is a penalty which is unenforceable - even if they have landowner rights, which they won't.

3) read the stickies

4) just keep all their rubbish letters in the drawer.

5) Stop worrying

[Al27]

There is no need to 'fight', just ignore any letters you receive.

 

They don't have a legal leg to stand on, so they will try and get you to pay with a few scary letters, usually full of inaccuracies (and sometimes outright lies) in order to scare you into paying.

 

• do not pay

• do not contact them again

• they will go away after 5 or 6 letters

• they will not take you to court

• ignore any of their threats about CCJs, court costs, and owner liability.

 

Private companies have no power to fine people. They can only go to court to reclaim their losses. Signs saying "if you do x, you agree to pay £x" are legal rubbish.

 

Debt collectors often threaten home visits, but very very rarely carry them out. Would you bother paying £10 in petrol on the off chance someone will be in? Even if they did turn up, what are they going to do? They are just private companies no different from Joe Bloggs Plumbers. Don't confuse them with bailiffs.

 

About one or two people get taken to court every year (out of hundreds of thousands of tickets). No private car company has ever won a case where the defendant bothered to respond to the court papers.

 

CCJs are only applied IF they take you to court AND you lose AND you refuse to pay after 14 days. It ain't gonna happen.

 

Euro Car Parks are well known here. We know of no case of them going to court.

 

I know you're worried, but you've got to toughen up on this one. Just ignore and all will be well. Let us know what funny letters full of red writing you receive!

[Dogshead]

Bad News on the Court Action

 

After Seeking Legal Advice on my hoped for Court Action against CEL

Legal Reports from the County Court, Traffic Enforcement Centre, Community Legal Advice and a Lawyer it seems gave bad news.

 

Provided they have addiquite signage with the Terms and Conditions

in place, PPC can now use Camara Evidence to Justify their Case

The £10 Charged for their Evidence is Classed as a "Service"

 

So unfortunatly if this did come to Court we would lose under the

current Law.

 

Many that I have spoken to are not happy with the way the Law

is over this and have advised that we write to our MP's

 

Not all Bad News Thought as they have Copyied the Terms amd Conditions of the TFC, they and the CLA have taken all their details

and are keeping an eye on them for infringements.

 

Did you know that CEL are now on their 4th Company Name Change.

 

Write to your MP and the Store in Discust over these People

These kind of Money Grabbing Leaches must be put out of Business

once and for all

[oxymoron1956]

I too have received a "Parking Ticket" for parking for 91 minutes instead of the allowed 90! I have written to them in verse but they do not seem to have a sense of humour .

 

FIRST FOEM

Thank you for your Parking Contravention Enforcement Notice

I can assure you I won’t be paying that

What do you think I am

Some kind of stupid idiot?

 

Don’t send any more letters

Or try any clever stunts

I got some info off the net

That confirms you’re a bunch of people who send out parking contravention notices.

 

SECOND POEM

I was surprised to receive your letter

And I really do not think

You’ve read mine to you

That says what not to do

So I’ve highlighted that bit in pink.

 

I’m not sending a cheque or postal order

And I couldn’t be any more blunt

You’re out of luck

‘Cos I don’t give a damn

You’re wasting your time you are.

 

I really am on the bones of me arse

I’ve reached my overdraft limit

The bank has said cut your cards in two

Don’t use them Miss Reid whatever you do

‘Cos I ain’t go no money innit.

 

So if you want to take me to court

I can assure you you’re not alone

Get in the queue

And I’ll give you a clue

You can’t get blood from a stone!

 

Don’t send any more letters

Or threaten litigation

I can’t pay this fine

So you’re wasting your time

I’ll just file them for incineration.

[FrazzledMum]

ha, ha. Good one. I like it! Might try something like that. Was thinking of trying the £35 charge for my husband to supply the driver's name.

 

I blame the supermarkets and shops just as much for these notices. they want people to shop but penalise them for doing so. Cretins.

 

Good luck!

[FrazzledMum]

So Dogshead, are you saying that CEL are taking you to court? have they actually carried out their threat? People are saying no case has ever reached court but is this not the case?

 

What is your experience?

 

cheers

[robin9342]

So Dogshead, are you saying that CEL are taking you to court? have they actually carried out their threat? People are saying no case has ever reached court but is this not the case?

 

What is your experience?

 

cheers

 

He is taking them to court (or at least he was: maybe not in the light of his last post), so you still have no need to worry

[FrazzledMum]

Hi Guys

 

i have drafted this letter, what do you think? I keep wavering between paying the £40 and fighting my corner. Just don't want to end up causing my unborn child any harm as i do get stressed easily.

 

Thanks.

 

I received your invoice yesterday for £70 or £40 if paid within 14 days.

Although the registered keeper of this vehicle, I was not driving it at the time. You will need to contact them. The driver has told me that they returned to the car within the 3 hour limit and moved the car to another space within the car park, believing that it would be okay, as is the case with parking meters. The driver is a very upstanding member of society and would never deliberately occupy a space for longer than necessary. When the car was moved, the car park was not full and the driver has told me that they moved it to a quieter part of the car park which had many spaces available. I think you need to differentiate between those who are deliberately being selfish and those who have just made a simple error. We are all human, including you.

Moving on to the charge, I think this is grossly disproportionate. As the terms of this car park are based on contract law, I believe your charges should reflect lost revenue. As this is a free car park, your lost revenue amounts to £0. As a gesture of goodwill, I would be willing to pay you the average car park rate of £1 an hour, so as my vehicle was parked for nearly 2 extra hours, I would be willing to pay you £2. I think a parallel can be drawn here between what you are trying to do and bank charges. These have been deemed unfair because they do not reflect the bank’s actual costs and are a punitive charge. The same applies to you. If you could inform me what law I have broken, I would be most grateful.

I am going to report your company to the office of fair-trading. I will write a strong letter of complaint to both my local MP, contact the local press and the main retail stores benefitting from customers using this free car park. I will report this entire incident to the police for nuisance and harassment and for attempting to extract money using threatening documentation purporting to be of an official nature.

I am not sure about that last paragraph. I copied it from another post on here. I read one post which said you shouldn't be too angry as they could use your letter in court against you. Other thing is it would be my husband who would have to go to court and to be honest, he wouldn't be as good as me. he is a mild mannered chap and wouldn't fight as hard as i would. So although I am writing this for him, he probably wouldn't say these things himself.

all comments gratefully received.

[Al27]

Aarrghhh.

 

How many times.

 

DO NOT PAY

DO NOT CONTACT THEM

 

You will not go to court. There are people on this forum actively trying to get these tickets hoping they WILL get taken to court so they can stuff the parking company. No such luck as yet.

[Voodoo_chile]

Hi Everyone,

 

This is my first post. I came across this site after doing a search for CEL. I received an enforcement letter from them (they try to make it look like a DVLA certificate) for overstaying by 15 mins at KFC.

 

There's some fantastic info on this forum that has set my mind at ease after being hit with £150 worth of bull trot (£75 if i pay quickly).

 

I love the template letters and handy quotes from the law but you know what the best advice seems to be...... Do nothing and let them stress over it until they give up.

 

So, with that in mind, if they think they're going to con 150 nuggets out of me, they can kiss my KFC hot rod

[Barnsley Boy]

Al27 is right you know.

 

I used to be of the writing persuasion but have changed my mind somewhat. BtB's letter templates really are very good, an accomplished piece of work. The problem is that they are wasted on PPCs who don't even read them, just taking any received correspondence as an indication of wavering.

 

If you just want the problem to go away then it is best to ignore. However, should you wish to get even, it is worth sending a letter - after at least a couple of salvos from the PPC using the template saying "take it up with the driver". Companies such as CEL seem quite happy to overstep the mark by stating that they hold the Registered Keeper responsible. This certainly falls foul of the 2008 Consumer Regs and, more arguably, the 2006 Fraud Act.

 

After a couple of letters from the DCA I also think it is worth writing to them stating that the debt is denied - refer back to the PPC. If they nevertheless write back to you that is specifically against OFT guidelines.

 

Having collated evidence of malpractice from both the PPC and their pet DCA then complain to OFT, Trading Standards, AA - if member, RAC - if member, DVLA, MP, save your real letter writing for this lot

[FrazzledMum]

Thanks Barnsley Boy. I know A127 is fed up with me repeating myself. It's just difficult when you are the sort of person who doesn't even drop a sweet wrapper to suddenly be branded a criminal and threatened with all sorts of alien things.

 

Some say a letter and some say ignore them. I will print my letter off and take it on my holiday tomorrow and see how i feel mid-week, whether i post it or not.

 

How long does it normally take before it all goes away? are we talking about a year or so?

 

cheers

[Barnsley Boy]

If you ignore everything then it could be 1 a month for 6 months then nothing. If you correspond then you will probably get letters every couple of weeks or so. By all accounts CEL are pretty persistant, it could take a year with you being given a number of "final" chances, all a bit boring really.

 

You've simply got to change your attitude, instead of worry and fear how about a bit of rightous indignation. How dare these creeps try to snatch your hard earned cash by making outrageous statements backed up by mickey mouse invoices.

 

Learn to smile as their pathetic letters come through your letterbox, telling yourself, great - more wasted effort.

[Dogshead]

So Dogshead, are you saying that CEL are taking you to court? have they actually carried out their threat? People are saying no case has ever reached court but is this not the case?

 

What is your experience?

 

cheers

 

I was going to take them to Court over their many Infringments

Their wording on the Original Charge Invoice and futher letters are taken from the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) Terms and Conditions hence words like Bailiff. Loss of Credit, Etc.,

The TEC come under criminal Law i.e. Penalty Tickets issued by Police or Traffic Wardens.

CEL and Euro Car Parks are Private Companys and come under Civil Law

but CEL are useing the wording of Criminal Law.

But in a Court of Law the main facts CEL have in their favour being the Management of the Parking Area to charge you are:-

Video Camara Evidance (usually placed at the entrance and Exit with the times you Enter and Leave)

Signs (Clearly Displaying the Terms and Conditions of Parking)

The £10 Charge for the Camara Evidance is Classed as a "Service"

 

Euro Car Parks have a Person (and I use the Person turm Loosely) who is supposed to patrol the Car Park every Hour taking Reg. Numbers on their Computor.

As well as the lengh of time you are allowed to stay it usually also state's that you must not return within one hour.

So even if you move your car around that Car Park you will still be nabbed

[Al27]

Thanks Barnsley Boy. I know A127 is fed up with me repeating myself. It's just difficult when you are the sort of person who doesn't even drop a sweet wrapper to suddenly be branded a criminal and threatened with all sorts of alien things.

 

Some say a letter and some say ignore them. I will print my letter off and take it on my holiday tomorrow and see how i feel mid-week, whether i post it or not.

 

I'm not fed up really, it's just so frustrating when somebody goes wobbly! We just want to help, but every now and again we get somebody who won't heed the advice and goes aheads and pays anyway.

 

It can seem scary, but the whole system is designed to be just like that so that the person will give in and pay.