Civil Enforcement Ltd (again!)

[Lilo72]

*removed*

[TideTurner]

Feralcat2,

 

The terms presented prior to any contract in this instance are specific and cannot be presumed, as with a sale of goods scenario, where offer and acceptance in the majority of cases is clear (a simple sale and purchase). The service here is the provision of a parking space for a set period of time.

 

Where a contract includes implied terms, generally, all parties must understand and agree to those terms.

 

How can you understand the terms if you cannot read them. My reference to a number plate was merely to show that although you may still legally drive, not everybody has good enough eyesight to see the small print on one of these signs, especially when they are deliberately placed where it would be difficult to read them.

 

Tide

[Sidewinder]

With reference to my last post, can anyone help me out? (see post number 191).

I'm starting to get very worried about this, as most ordinary folk do in this situation.

All the best.

 

I think that everybody can understand the worry, as it is on that basis that CEL are trying to get money out of you. How many people receive threatening letters the same as yours and opt to pay rather than to carry on fighting for justice? The fact remains however that it is incredibly likely that letters are as far as this will go. They would find it almost impossible to win a case in Court and therefore are extremely unlikely to risk it. See this thread and take heart - 600 people have been in touch with Pete for advice, of which only 2 have been taken to Court (both of which were with AS Securi T) and both cases failed. There seems to be no evidence of CEL taking people to Court despite many threats.

 

Try this.

 

Reference XXXXXXXXX

 

Sir,

 

I am frankly appalled that you have again written to me in connection with this matter, apparently ignoring the fact that I am in dispute with your client regarding the validity of this charge. I strenuously refute any claim that I owe any money to either yourselves or your client, as I made no agreement to make such payment at any time. Indeed it would appear that your client is uncertain as to exactly why they believe such a payment is due. They originally claimed that I was responsible for a 'Parking Charge' in respect of a visit to McDonalds Gatwick and 'overstayed' in that I remained on the premises for 1 hour and 1 minute. Unaware of any such restriction, and certainly not having seen signage at the time to the effect that I might be charged, I have recently sought evidence of this condition and am concerned to note that signs in place in the car park indicate that visitors should remain for no longer than 1 hour and 15 minutes. I have enclosed a photograph to illustrate this fact, and on that basis I fail to see how I may have contravened any time limit by remaining for 1 hour and 1 minute only. It is also not immediately apparent from the signs that a charge may be payable in the event of an 'overstay'.

 

Please note therefore that no payment will be forthcoming in respect of this charge, and I am confident that the nature of your threats constitute breaches of the Administration of Justice Act and The Protection from Harassment Act. I respectfully suggest that you refer this matter to your client in order to close their file.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

XXXXXXXXXX

[petej2811]

Sidewinder,

 

I've had a few emails about CEL, not a lot, but can confirm that none of them, to my knowledge, have resulted in court action.

 

PJ

[Sidewinder]

Thanks Pete

 

I think that the number of people who have posted here (and elsewhere) having received a ticket under the same circumstances, yet have received nothing but letters, says quite a lot about how CEL operate. If they were that certain of their case, I think they would move to civil action more swiftly and get the cash in quicker...

[Lilo72]

*removed*

[feralcat2]

To legal-advisor, Bernie the Bolt & Petej2811,

 

Thank you all for correcting my unintentional mistake. I was aware of the distinction between actual and implied contracts, albeit, not aware of the Vine case as mentioned. I used the High Street analogy as the vehicle to simplify a technical point,(ie customer makes the offer, cashier makes the acceptance, the result is a contract, and endeavoured to apply that theory to a car-park scenario.

 

Please accept my apology for failing to mention a subjective viewpoint on my posting. My intent was to show that contracts could be formulated in other ways rather than by deed, and took an objective viewpoint insofar that no contractual deed was present to show that a contract existed. I tried to explain, with regard to car parks, that implied contracts only came into effect (if at all) on over-stay. Also, when a dispute arose, it was the over-riding responsibility the car park owner to show that a contract existed.

 

Once again, I apologise reservidely for any misunderstanding or wrongful impression I may have given in my posting, That was not my intent. Feralcat2

[chococat]

Well i just received my Newlyn letter (with "DO NOT IGNORE THIS LETTER" emblazoned across the top. It's the 1st correspondence on which they've managed to spell my name and address correctly so well done on that score.

 

They seem to have worked out that i owe them 178 quid now (from the 45/90 they were begging for previously). Gave me a little bit of a shock and was initially quite upset. Thankfully logging back in here has shown me that it's another one of CEL's batch attempts to earn some money. They're giving me lots of options to pay them, phone no's, bold type of the word "immediately" everywhere. So after my 2 minute scare, i'm now a lot calmer.

 

They seem like chancers, as i'm to understand they can't attempt to recover any debt until the case has been to court. They probably wont feel like taking me to court because theyre on shaky legal ground as we all know, and wont want to incur costs.

 

So i'm going to stand firm. I'm also puzzled as to how a Northampton based debt collector agency is going to act upon someone living 300 miles away without any kind of court judgement. I did have someone knock on my door with a suit on the other week (i was out, my partner didnt answer) and it may be related. But what are they going to try and do, clamp my car?

[wrinx]

Received mine yesterday and felt the same as you, you may find some of the answers on "my" thread useful:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-offences/103625-civil-enforcement-ltd-again.html#post982019

 

Quite disappointed they're messing about like this, the last threat was for court but it would appear this is the best they can do.

 

wrinx

[Barnsley Boy]

Quite a flood of CEL / Newlyn letters evident from the forums. It is obviously "bull week" for them. It is up to all of us to ensure that their Christmas do is held at a greasy joe's rather than a four star hotel.

[scubasuzy]

Hi one and all

I too received my letter from cel/newlyn with a do not ignore this letter, wrote back and told them that this was in dispute with cel and if they persisted would be happy to see them in court. Told them not getting a penny till photographic evdence provided as dispute the amount of time, cant go back to check the notice boards as am over 250 mls from gatwick mcdonalds. Am quite happy to play the long game, hope they have a miserable christmas, cos i intend to have a good one on the money that they are not getting.

Seasons Greetings to one and all

[Sidewinder]

Hi one and all

I too received my letter from cel/newlyn with a do not ignore this letter, wrote back and told them that this was in dispute with cel and if they persisted would be happy to see them in court. Told them not getting a penny till photographic evdence provided as dispute the amount of time, cant go back to check the notice boards as am over 250 mls from gatwick mcdonalds. Am quite happy to play the long game, hope they have a miserable christmas, cos i intend to have a good one on the money that they are not getting.

Seasons Greetings to one and all

 

See my post #186 - those are the signs in place as at last Sunday. Several people seem to have got tickets for staying just over an hour yet the signs state 75 minutes. It isn't clear at a glance that they warn of a payment being due for contravention either!

[WebFerret]

Civil Enforcement Ltd - What a [problem]!

 

These guys are now operating in Watford, Herts in shopping retail parks - I just became a victim too, and hope this post will help many people unclear as to what to do:

 

What you receive is not a 'Parking Ticket' it is simply a statement of an alleged reason to pay them some money!

 

DO NOT PAY ANY MONEY - EVER !

 

It happens like this:

You park in a 'free' parking site (McDonalds/Retail Park/Petrol Station etc) and they have tiny little notices (allegedly) up saying you have 10mins or 2hrs to park free, otherwise you will be charged £120 or whatever.

They have cameras that read your number plate and record the time the vehicle arrives and leaves (a private Ltd company - who have no right to the DVLA database under the Protection of Data Information act!)

 

(It is said that the DVLA 'sell' them this information, making money in the process - that's our Labour Government for you! - this information should be kept private & confidential & not publicly available)

 

They then send the registered keeper of the vehicle a demand for money - illegal, cos the registered keeper is not necessarily the driver who allegedly committed an offence! - but it all looks very official but is a [problem] to scare you into paying - they have no legal basis to actually enforce payment.

 

You simply ignore this notice until you receive an invoice for more money! - The fact they send you an invoice implies you entered into a contract with them! - which of course you have not, and they would have little success in claiming that you had, if they took you to court.

 

You then write to them (recorded delivery) as follows:

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

I am in receipt of your invoice (bla bla) for parking at the (details of location) on the (insert date). I note you have written to me as the registered keeper of the vehicle. Please be advised that as the registered keeper of the vehicle concerned that I have no liability whatsoever to pay your invoice. You need to contact the driver and invoice them directly.

Please do not correspond with me any further on this matter except to confirm that you will be not taking the matter any further with me as the registered keeper of the vehicle.

Yours sincerely

etc etc

 

They would then have to prove that you were the driver at the time of the 'alleged offence', which they will not do - it would mean taking you to court. (my research on this [problem] suggests no-one has ever yet been taken to court because they have no legal grounds to do so) - end of story.

However, they will still pursue you for money with threats and so on, even with offers to accept a reduced amount to settle their claim ("please give us any amount of money, please!" - lol ).

 

Call the police if they continue to harass you or send round debt collectors ('Debt collectors' (another private company) have no more power than you or I - it is only Bailiffs (employed by the courts) who have the power to remove goods with a warrant - but a warrant will only be issued after your day in court, if you refuse to pay, assuming you are found guilty! - lol)

 

If debt collectors do turn up at your door, don't let them in, call the police (999) and state that they are trying to enter your premises by assault.

 

(If you are worried (elderly etc) visit your local police station and explain the situation - they will give you a code number to quote if your need to dial 999, and will attend rapidly)

 

Eventually, they will go away, and the letters will stop - but it's amazing that this kind of extortion can exist in this day and age - these companies sail so close to the law (and do in fact break some) but Government do nothing to protect us from them - in fact, in my view, the Government 'encourage' these private companies and their unscrupulous activities by providing your details to them!

 

TIME FOR A NEW (better) GOVERNMENT I THINK!

 

To put all this in perspective, it would be like me doing the following:

 

1) I put up a notice outside my house stating - "If you drive past my house in a Ferrari then the car is mine"!

2) I then send the registered keeper of the Ferrari a notice demanding the car, and that if they don't comply I threaten them with court action.

3) I then send round 'the boys' (debt collectors) 'asking' nicely to hand over the keys.

4) If they give me the keys, great, the [problem] has worked!!! - (if not then I'll just try somebody else!)

 

For this to have any validity in a court of law, I would have to prove that a contract existed between myself and the driver of the Ferrari, (which of course does not exist) otherwise I have no legal entitlement to the car.

 

Great [problem]........................

 

In my case the company concerned is Civil Enforcement Limited, registered to a PO Box run by one individual who lives in a very expensive house, has changed the name of his company several times (liquidated), been featured on BBC TV's Watchdog and there are many forum posts about them (complaining) on the net.

 

btw: If anyone does get a court summons regarding this [problem], UKRights.org would like know so they can attend the case.

 

Furthermore:

This [problem] could not exist if the Government (DVLA) did not 'sell' on, to the general public, information that should be protected by the Data Protection Act - the registered keeper details of vehicles.

 

This information should ONLY be accessable by Government officials - ie the Police, Councils ect., NOT private individuals = private companies!

 

It is obviouse that this company (Civil Enforcement Ltd) is a rouge outfit - having liquidated it'self several times and in how it demonstrates an unethical 'business' practice of extracting monies from 'innocent' people.

 

How is it then that the Govenment can hold it's head up high and say it's OK to 'sell' on our confidential information to the likes of these people?! - What will happen if the National ID card goes ahead - who the hell will be buying that information and how will they be using that?

 

Forget Civil Enforcement Ltd (they haven't a leg to stand on in law to collect any monies - it's all just threats - call the police if threatened/harrassed) - It's the Government we should all be targeting and lobby for them to reverse their decission to allow private individuals access to private & confidential information which should be protected under the Data Protection Act.

 

End of story...........................

 

PS: Let me know if the Farrari [problem] works anyone? - lol

[feralcat2]

I too have recieved another letter from CEL, this one being a replicia and identical to one I recieved approx one month ago. I intend replying and stating that they are continuing to engage in psychological harassment in contravention of the OFT Code of Practice,. Section 2.6h states,...

 

Examples of unfair practice are as follows, " ignoring or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands" and at Section 2.4f, False Representation it states, "pursuing third parties for payment when they are not liable." is an example of unfair practice.

 

As the registered keeper, I am not liable to debts of third party drivers.

Thus, I intend making a complaint to the local trading standards office and state my case.. The over-riding issue that CEL is acting unlawfully and unethically is a beginning. They ignore common law maxims and take motorists for fools. The laugh will be on them when their licence to trade is revoked. CEL act as if empowered with Strict Liability authorization, charged with a duty for public safety such as Police and Local Authority personal. The only course open to them is thro the Courts where the rules of Civil Liability applies. That means following the guidelines set down by the OFT for fair and ethical practices.

I will keep the site posted.

[chococat]

I'm in a bit of a dilemma. Part of me wants to offer CEL the original charge (45 quid) just to end this whole affair. Another part of me won't back down because i know they're con artists.

 

Problem is, its affecting my peace of mind to such a degree i want it all to end.

[aka]

I'm in a bit of a dilemma. Part of me wants to offer CEL the original charge (45 quid) just to end this whole affair. Another part of me won't back down because i know they're con artists.

 

Problem is, its affecting my peace of mind to such a degree i want it all to end.

 

 

Don't back down. What if I were to send you an invoice for £45, would you pay that if I threatened you with debt collectors? I doubt it!

 

I have the same worries as you Chococat but as you have read these companies survive only because their scare tactics work on a certain percentage of those that they write to.

 

Stay firm, they have no legal rights to your money!

 

Is it not time maybe that we as a forum got Watchdog involved?

[WebFerret]

I'm in a bit of a dilemma. Part of me wants to offer CEL the original charge (45 quid) just to end this whole affair. Another part of me won't back down because i know they're con artists.

 

Problem is, its affecting my peace of mind to such a degree i want it all to end.

 

Hi chococat

I really feel for you at this time and guess many others are in the same dilemma as you, but this is exactly how they want you to feel - for you to simply give in and pay their outrageous demands - this is their ultimate goal in what for them, is a very lucrative edited at your expense.

 

If you pay, their edited has worked - but if you stand up to them - there is nothing they can do except harass you further, but then there are laws that can prevent this, if it starts to get out of hand.

 

But if you pay, think what will happen if you get 'caught' again? - will you simply pay up again, and again, and again.............................

 

I don't believe in 'rolling over' to bullies - never have and never will on principle.

 

Edmund Burke once stated: “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”

This statement rings so true in relation to the unscrupulous and unethical 'business' practices of Civil Enforcement Ltd.

 

Dont pay these edited a penny - stand firm and fight back - don't allow yourself to be bullied into supporting their edited

 

Jeffrey Goldberg once said: "It's a case about fear and extortion. It's a case about lies and fraud" - now why does that sound so appropriate in this situation?

 

Sir Winston Churchill once said "Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense”; and I for one support these sentiments wholly.

 

If you want to do more to fight back, then may I suggest you lobby you local MP and the PM about the dubious selling of your personal information to these edited by the DVLA - you can see my post here on the subject with this link:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-offences/123302-dvla-should-sued-under.html

 

And remember the quote by Margaret Mead: "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world, for Indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has".

 

In fact I would urge anyone who has fallen victim to this edited to write to their local PM and ask why the DVLA are selling on personal information that should be protected under the Data Protection Act - When the 'source' of the information is cut off this edited cannot exist!

 

I hope chococat, that I have offered some encouragement to help lift you spirits and gain courage to fight back - please let me know how things develop.

[MARTIN3030]

Your emotions are apparant Webferret but the words are a little choice.For that reason I have to say one or two have been edited.

[MikeBigg]

Your emotions are apparant Webferret but the words are a little choice.For that reason I have to say one or two have been edited.

 

Martin,

 

looking through the edited post, it reads like the only word that would have fitted and is most liekly to have been used is "[problem]" or "[problematic]".

 

If I'm wrong then I apologise, but it seems to me to be the perfect word to describe what these people do ... they tell lies in an attempt to obtain money. This seems to fit in with the definition of [problem]:

 

[problem] - definition of [problem] by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

 

[problem]

n. A fraudulent business scheme; a swindle.

 

tr.v. scammed, [problem]·ming, scams To defraud; swindle.

 

 

In fact being honest, I think [problem] is a polite word, given the number of words that could be used for these people.

 

 

Mike

[Nemeses]

Hi Everyone,

 

First time user as I only joined the forum today - please see my first message posted earlier today in the 'Welcome Section'.

 

I hope to start my own thread on these w*****s very soon.

 

STOP PRESS.........................

In the meantime I'm sure you'll all be interested in the article on page 5 of todays Guardian newspaper under the the headline :

McParking Row as slow eaters given heavy fines

 

Best Wishes to you all & keep the faith

United We Stand

Nemeses

[Sidewinder]

HERE

 

Linked for ease of access........

[creativesolution]

My friend has received another letter from those wonderful people at Newlyn, completely ignoring the letter sent to them and stating

 

"We need to receive payment of this debt at this time."

 

Any advice of what to do next would be gratefully apprecicated.

[Barnsley Boy]

My friend has received another letter from those wonderful people at Newlyn, completely ignoring the letter sent to them and stating

 

"We need to receive payment of this debt at this time."

 

Any advice of what to do next would be gratefully apprecicated.

 

Given that they've ignored the letter sent to them...........

 

Just ignore absolutely everything unless you get a summons [very very unlikely, no one has heard about one from CEL / Newlynn yet]

[Sidewinder]

My friend has received another letter from those wonderful people at Newlyn, completely ignoring the letter sent to them and stating

 

"We need to receive payment of this debt at this time."

 

Any advice of what to do next would be gratefully apprecicated.

 

 

.....or a response stating "And further to my previous correspondence, I require to see evidence of my responsibility for the alleged debt. I understand your wish to generate a profit for your business, but trust that you in turn appreciate that I will refuse to assist in your aims unless and until it is proven that I am legally liable to do so. In the absence of the legal precedent or statute which requires me to make payment to your company, I now demand that you cease and desist any further communication"

[MikeBigg]

STOP PRESS.........................

In the meantime I'm sure you'll all be interested in the article on page 5 of todays Guardian newspaper under the the headline :

McParking Row as slow eaters given heavy fines

 

An online version can be found here:

 

McParking row as slow eaters given heavy fines | The Guardian | Guardian Unlimited

 

Mike