Civil Enforcement Ltd (again!)

[chococat]

I'm still not paying them but im having slight concerns over someone mentioning these companies hiring debt collection agencies. A lot of my assuredness came from the fact that they can't get bailiffs without court action, which i imagine won't ever happen.

 

I really don't want a hired agency on my case though (although i cant see it being worth the trouble for 45/90 quid). Anyone know if they've done this to anyone?

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Hi there,

 

My husband recently parked in the Toys'r'us carpark in Plymouth, where you can park for free for upto 2 hours.

 

He was a plonker & overstayed by 1 hour.

 

We received a ticket from them 3 weeks ago demanding £50

The ticket was a 'civil' ticket and included photographic evidence of the car both entering & leaving the car park. However, the exit photo does not show the number plate of the car.

 

We have today received a Final Reminder demanding £75, if we fail to pay by 27th Oct, a 'charge certificate' will be issued & further costs involved.

 

The notice also states that liability for parking charge lies with the owner/keeper.

 

So far, we haven't done anything.

 

I would really appreciate advice on what to do now.

 

Should we write back with 'contact the driver of the vehicle' etc, or, should we write to their appeals address demanding that they provide photographic evidence of the number plate at the exit photo, or, should we say that the car left the car park within 2 hours, and then came back later? (Although this is not true)

 

Please help as this is making me feel quite ill.

 

I would write:

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Thank you for your letter of dd/mm/yyyy.

 

I'm afraid that your purported evidence is not conclusive of my car leaving your carpark at the time stated.

 

In any event, could you please quote the statute and/or case law to support your claim that the owner is liable for any charges you claim you are due.

 

Absent conclusive proof, I'm afraid this is a matter you will have to take up with the driver and I will be unable to enter into any further correspondence with you.

 

Yours faithfully

[creativesolution]

post deleted

[mungomo]

Hello, I have received a PCN from this company, for overstaying at Mcdonalds Gatwick by 8 minutes. I wrote a genuine letter to them explaining I have 2 small children, what with nappy changing, waiting for food, small child spilling everything everywhere etc etc it is understandable that I outstayed my time by a few minutes. I have received the standard letter blahblah extended the time allowance for me to pay the reduced rate by 7 days. Any advice from anyone who has been in my situation ? Shall i issue a letter saying that they have 14 days to issue proceedings on me and put the ball in their court? Anay advice greatfully received. Thanks

[feralcat2]

Hi all you lucky trend setters, I just got a ppn a few days back, from you know who, not replied yet, but am I glad that I found you. I did'nt over-stay at McDonalds, Gatwick Drive Thru, Just fancied a sandwich at Black Bean Cafe, but did'nt like the food and left.

 

The visit lasted 5/10 minutes max. I continued to the Airport, dropped-off a friend, then called into McDonalds, on the way back, had a quick chololate and used the loo, this visit visit about 20/25 minutes flat.

 

AND GUESS WHAT?, they reckon I was in the place an hour. Who in Gods name want's to stay in that DUMP for an hour. and they want £125 for the privelage.

 

WELL Mr McDONALD, I'VE GOT A MESSAGE FOR YEH, If ITS HARESSMENT AND EXTORTION YEH WANT, I'VE GOT PLENTY FOR YEH.

[Zamzara]

Any advice from anyone who has been in my situation ? Shall i issue a letter saying that they have 14 days to issue proceedings on me and put the ball in their court?

 

Yes, this is my favoured approach. Outline why you believe their claim has no basis (no agreement by you, and the charge is a penalty), and inform them that their only legal option is to issue a county court claim: if they continue to take the law in to their own hands it will be considered harassment.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Hello, I have received a PCN from this company, for overstaying at Mcdonalds Gatwick by 8 minutes. I wrote a genuine letter to them explaining I have 2 small children, what with nappy changing, waiting for food, small child spilling everything everywhere etc etc it is understandable that I outstayed my time by a few minutes. I have received the standard letter blahblah extended the time allowance for me to pay the reduced rate by 7 days. Any advice from anyone who has been in my situation ? Shall i issue a letter saying that they have 14 days to issue proceedings on me and put the ball in their court? Anay advice greatfully received. Thanks

 

Yes, this is my favoured approach. Outline why you believe their claim has no basis (no agreement by you, and the charge is a penalty), and inform them that their only legal option is to issue a county court claim: if they continue to take the law in to their own hands it will be considered harassment.

 

I don't think you can impose a deadline on them to commence court action.

 

You can write back as follows:

 

Dear Sirs,

 

If, which I do not accept, any contract was entered into, by me, with you; I deny that you are entitled to the sums claimed or any other sum. Further, I deny any tortious liability to you.

 

Should you wish to pursue this matter, you will need to produce appropriate evidence supported by appropriate citations of statute or case law in order that they may be considered.

 

If you are unable to do this, I shall not enter into any further correspondence, with you, on this matter.

 

Yours faithfully

 

NB do not permit your spell checker to change "tortious" to "tortuous".

[feralcat2]

Hi Folks, remembering the phrase by Pete2811, "be icily polite," the following letter was forwarded to 'you know who?'

To Whom it may Concern

Dear Sir/Madam

With respect to your Parking Enforcement Notice recieved today, I am unsure if it had been delayed by the postal dispute or was sent to the wrong addess.

I am not aware or recollect who the driver was at the times stated on your document, thus can you please provide the identity of the driver so as the matter can be addressed

 

I have been advised to make a Data Subject Access request to you, to include all photographic data and all corresponding data appertaining to the DLVA and others which has bearing on this case, givin that I am the keeper of the vehicle involved in your enquery...

 

Sincerely,...

 

will post reply.

[Redwoodsteve]

Click on the link and have a read, it has a lot of interesting points.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-wardens/65341-private-parking-companies-charges.html

[feralcat2]

Hi Redwoodsteve, I have read the advice paper by Pete 2811, 'excellant work' and my letter to 'you know who' was based on that paper. I am currently waiting for a response.

Having absorbed 'That Advice' from Pete, I note that Aldi Store in Gillingham are installing 'car park signage' with the word 'penalty' on them and litrature that contain the word 'fine'. (as in court ) The agents are Private Eye Management wherein I can provide details to site if required. Will keep you all posted of developments.

[Bongalez]

My girlfriend's car, Century Retail Park, Watford, overstayed by 15 minutes, £60 within 14 days, £120 thereafter. Having returned to the car park, the signs are barely legible – small type, difficult to see and easily missed! (I speak with some authority as a graphic designer). Is there a law stating the size of signs and fonts? This company is run by gangsters, surely!! They say they have photographic evidence but want £10 for it (is this legal??) Everyone here has similar experiences but the "enforcement" amounts are different... why?? The scales of justice they use as a logo – pathetic!! People like this make me so angry! People like us will contest but they make their money from the timid and vulnerable..., it's just disgusting!

AAAAArrrrrrggggghhhh!!!!!!!!!!!! Now I've got that off my chest I'm going to try the keeper/driver letter!

Ever thankful for this forum and others like it!!!

[feralcat2]

Hi Bongalez, 2 questions come to mind, firstly, retail car park, this is a private car park and not subject to manditory provisions ect, however, the signage/font size in a privte car park is at the discression of the car park owners.

Secondly, as a retail car park, contractual formalities that arise raise issues of deciding which company is party to the contract with your girlfriend. The 'invitation to treat' (ie, the main reason for entering the car park innitially,) would be with one firm, whereas if she had reason to visit 2 or 3 different companies, then those particular companies are partly responsible for the delay or overstay.

Furthermore, no penalty charge exists in contractual law, only damages for loss. Thus your charge of £120 is a penalty and unenforceable, The charge for a parking over-stay of 15 minutes in a retail park is negliable, as the companies with whom your girlfriend contracted would have to show exactly what loss they occured. It would cost their accountants more to make the calculations, especial if the car park was free,.

Hope this helps. PS Im still waiting for a reply from the little 'ball-bags,' and will post reply

[Redwoodsteve]

Hi all, well I've received a "Cessation of Correspondence" letter from CEL, telling they have "expended considerable time" on my representations, their "decision is final" and the debt will be forwarded onto a Debt Collection Agency. Bring it On!!

[Redwoodsteve]

As an addendum to my previous post, I have written to CEL again.

 

I have told CEL that the matter is in dispute and forbid them from forwarding it to a debt collector.

 

Should a Debt Collector contact me I will advise that I owe their client nothing, the debt is in dispute and order them to pass the debt back to their client.

 

I will continue to ask CEL for evidence of the driver. When they can't produce it I will simply tell them what to do, in the most civil terms, with their demand for payment.

[feralcat2]

As an addendum to my previous post, I have written to CEL again.

 

I have told CEL that the matter is in dispute and forbid them from forwarding it to a debt collector.

 

Should a Debt Collector contact me I will advise that I owe their client nothing, the debt is in dispute and order them to pass the debt back to their client.

 

I will continue to ask CEL for evidence of the driver. When they can't produce it I will simply tell them what to do, in the most civil terms, with their demand for payment.

 

 

 

Hi Redwoodsteve, Your demands are very dramatic and unreasonable, the language of an angry man which these leeches love. They will use your correspondence against you if they decide to take your case to the Courts.

Please remember the words, "be icily polite" it is more effective, when you ask them for the legal authority to justify their demands/claims. That way they have to say if the charge is for parking or a penalty.

 

If for parking, they have to prove the loss (as damages) is 'not wholly unscrupulous or excessive' and is reasonable (to the consumer) within the remit of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Comtracts Regulations 1999 (SI. 1999/2083) See section 5 where contractual terms are 'considered unfair' to the detriment of the consumer, if not individual negotiated.

 

If charge is unscrupulous and excessive, then the charge is a penalty and not enforceable.

 

See previous threads, where asking for legal authority is taboo to these leeches, and abandondonment or cancelation is a possibility as they refuse to continue.

[Redwoodsteve]

Hi Feralcat2, they weren't the exact words I have written, but along the lines of. It was Pete Jones that gave me direction on how I should respond. I was concerned that not replying to them was acceptance of the situation and by advising them the debt was in dispute, pending further evidence, it could be construed as harrassment if they choose to ignore this, (bullets for my court case maybe, should it go that far).

 

Pete's final advise was to continue to request for driver evidence, as without it they have no case against you. Even the police can't prosecute or demand payment from the registered keeper, albeit they've recently moved the goalposts to make it a criminal offence for the registered keeper not to tell them who the driver was (I think), but CEL do not have this option as its a civil matter.

[feralcat2]

Hi Feralcat2, they weren't the exact words I have written, but along the lines of. It was Pete Jones that gave me direction on how I should respond. I was concerned that not replying to them was acceptance of the situation and by advising them the debt was in dispute, pending further evidence, it could be construed as harrassment if they choose to ignore this, (bullets for my court case maybe, should it go that far).

 

Pete's final advise was to continue to request for driver evidence, as without it they have no case against you. Even the police can't prosecute or demand payment from the registered keeper, albeit they've recently moved the goalposts to make it a criminal offence for the registered keeper not to tell them who the driver was (I think), but CEL do not have this option as its a civil matter.

 

Hi Redwoodsteve, I agree with Pete's advice, My comment was on the same track, albeit I did not mention driver identity as you already had issue in hand. Further, where a debt is disputed, the County Court is the adjudicator not debt collectors, Should they come to your home demanding money, that can be constrewed as harassment and is a police matter.

 

However, where the 'little ball bags' refuse to supply the driver identity or the legal authority on the case, you have no obligation to them. Also I agree with your policy of having data to support your rights of defence.

[Hatari]

The Leeches at civil Enforcement are on to me as well.

 

I wrote to them after receiving the final demand for £125.00 for using the McDonald’s car park at Gatwick Airport last July. I made it clear to them that I was not in charge of my car at the time and did not enter in to any contract by reading any of the signs posted. I also wrote that I will not be paying on behalf on anybody else and get reimbursed as suggested by them. I also wrote, I will see them and the photographic evidence in court to prove that I was not the driver. I also mentioned that I would be making a claim for the days loss of wages from my place of work and any travelling & parking charges while attending court.

 

Yesterday I've received a "Cessation of Correspondence" letter from CEL, saying they have "expended considerable time" on my representations, their "decision is final" and the debt will be forwarded onto a Debt Collection Agency for recovery. It seems that they have declared me Guilty without me having my day in Court.

 

I am now concerned about some gangsters turning up at my doorstep while I am not at home. Any suggestion as to what action I can and should take if they show up will most appreciated.

[electron99]

The Leeches at civil Enforcement are on to me as well.

 

I wrote to them after receiving the final demand for £125.00 for using the McDonald’s car park at Gatwick Airport last July. I made it clear to them that I was not in charge of my car at the time and did not enter in to any contract by reading any of the signs posted. I also wrote that I will not be paying on behalf on anybody else and get reimbursed as suggested by them. I also wrote, I will see them and the photographic evidence in court to prove that I was not the driver. I also mentioned that I would be making a claim for the days loss of wages from my place of work and any travelling & parking charges while attending court.

 

Yesterday I've received a "Cessation of Correspondence" letter from CEL, saying they have "expended considerable time" on my representations, their "decision is final" and the debt will be forwarded onto a Debt Collection Agency for recovery. It seems that they have declared me Guilty without me having my day in Court.

 

I am now concerned about some gangsters turning up at my doorstep while I am not at home. Any suggestion as to what action I can and should take if they show up will most appreciated.

 

When you get the letter from the DCA, write back saying the debt is in dispute, and should be returned to CEL. Since CEL have already written to you with a cessation of correspondence letter, they in theory will not write to you again

[demon_x_slash]

Even if representatives from a DCA turn up, you have no obligation to even open a window to them, let alone let them in. They're not bailiffs. They have no power of forced entry, 'breaking in with a locksmith', clamping, or goods seizure. Just refer them back to their 'client' as the alleged debt is in dispute. They can't do a thing without taking you all the way to court.

[feralcat2]

Hi Hatari, & Electron99, Your comments make a 'sad bunny' happy. The CEL comment of 'cessation of correspondence' means in effect, that their claim for parking charges has no basis, It also establish's that they are not willing to persue the PCN demand insofar as no statute or case law citations is availaable to them to do so.

 

However, that is not to say that some unscrupulous debt collecting agency will not step forward and try to extract money from perperating the demands of cel. Debt collectors have no case if the debt owed is not proven within the remit of statute or case law citations

 

Secondly, in regard to McDonald's, please note their Corporate Governance Statement, boasts of,.."the basis of our entire business is that we are ethical, truthful and dependable. and the B.o.D. also boast of professional integrity, fairness and honesty." If the above statements were true within the definition of honesty,.. then CEL's demands for parking charges/penalty would be devoid of substance, (as currently they are) and the need to engage correspondence and issue "cessation of correspondence notices" would not arise. The words of the Corporate Goverance statement may help in making counterclaims ect.

[Hatari]

Thanks All.

I will keep you informed and let you know the final outcome.

Regards

Hatari

[feralcat2]

Ha at last, The little leeches have replied. The letter is very similar to that of Chococat (page 1) but included simplified quotations of the Data Protection Act 1998 Schedule 1, Part 1, The Principles..

 

(quote,...1,..fairly and lawfully processed, 2,..processed for limited purposes, 3,..adaquate, relevant and not excessive, 4,...accurate and up to date, 5,...not kept for longer than necessary, 6,..processed in line with your rights and secure, 7..not transfered to other countries without adaquate protection. (ps. I have added to numerals for convenience)

 

The second area covered by the Act provides individuals with important rights, including the right to find outwhat personal information is held on computer and most personal records. If you would like to know what information we hold about you,, send cheque for £10, ect, ect ect. and we will send you a copy. end of quote.)

 

At Section 7,(2) a,b, the DPA does provide for data controllers to provide personal data for a fee,.. provided you write to them and ask. However, in the circumstances where CEL are claiming you over-stated the parking limits, thus you are endebted to them for a penalty (Parking Charge Notice)... I harbour no doubt that this practice is a misuse of the Data Protection Act,

 

The purpose of the Act is to protect individuals with regard to processing personal data. As it happens, CEL seem to be in the business of selling personal data which is not what the Act is about. The only information CEL are required to have is that as supplied by the DVLA.

 

I would appreciate any informed views as I am not up to speed on Data protection.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

feralcat2,

 

I'm a bit confused by this. All I seem to be able to work out is that you made a Subject Access Request to CEL and they are saying to you that they will deal with your request if and when you pay them £10. They are entitled to do this.

 

Personally I would have said that they should disclose what "evidence" they wish to rely on to prove their case free. If they don't do that then I would seriously question whether the data exists.

 

Perhaps I am missing something?

[aka]

Firstly hello to everyone that is in the same boat as I am! I have read all the posts that i can in relation to these muppets but I am still a bit confused as to what the best letter is to send in order to get a "ticket cancelled" reply. It seems that some have had better luck than others but as this post is now so long it is difficult to keep track. I would appreciate any help in this matter. My case is one of Mc Donalds at |Gatwick, 5 mins over my stay but I was the driver and the car is registered to my wife. As my wife does not relish the undertaking of this task and would rather just pay them I am going to be doing all the letter writing. Can anyone see a problem with me signing the letters as I want to be the one that attends court should it go that far.

 

Thanks again