Universal Credit Loan CCJ - Now Paragon - Paid 19k Still owe 6k

[dx100uk]

true, take that the otherway around then.

if latterly a cca request cannot be not met,

could not the earlier ccj be overturned then?

or do i remember reading somewhere that if the defaulter does not appear, nothing is checked [as such] on the creditors side as it is deemed sucessful by default?

 

dx100uk

[spuddly]

these are the documents i am referring to

 

paragon sent this

 

 

i already had this from the start

[spuddly]

I spoke to the courts yesterday and they told me that the CCj is still applicable but that Paragon have not entered details on it since 2002, so i need to send them a strong letter asking for clarification of my CCj .

My rough accounts from the sar request works out at$almost£16k an they took me to court for £10k.

I wonder if they will be genuine in there reply seeing as the CCA was hand written???

 

portion of T&C (having problems scanning)

 

 

CCJ from 2002 (sar )

 

 

 

 

 

 

[spuddly]

could someone point me in the right direction as to what to put in my assertive but polite letter?..plesase:)

 

also seeing as the CCJ is still active and i have come out of my DMP should i still send payment for this month or do my actions still make the matter in dispute!!!

[spuddly]

ooopps double post sorry...

[paulwlton]

true, take that the otherway around then.

if latterly a cca request cannot be not met,

could not the earlier ccj be overturned then?

or do i remember reading somewhere that if the defaulter does not appear, nothing is checked [as such] on the creditors side as it is deemed sucessful by default?

 

dx100uk

 

If a creditor fails in providing a copy of the original agreement under a CCA request he cannot enforce the agreement whether subject to a court order or not.

 

Paul

[lemma1968]

If a creditor fails in providing a copy of the original agreement under a CCA request he cannot enforce the agreement whether subject to a court order or not.

 

Paul

 

I'm not sure about that at all. The whole purpose of it going to court is to prove the debt is owed and owed by you and make it enforceable in the first instance . If they got judgment by default then you would either have to appeal or apply to have the judgment set aside in order to challenge paying it should they come wanting you to honour the judgment. And bearing in mind the length of time since judgment you may have difficulty. You cannot just say "oh well I know you got judgment against me in 2002 but cos you cannot find the CCA i'm not paying it"

 

A court order IS a court order and remains binding until set aside.

 

They may be some mileage in arguing the CCA if they seek to take you back to court to enforce the original judgment, but an enforcement hearing is not a rehearing of the original claim.

[paulwlton]

I'm not sure about that at all. The whole purpose of it going to court is to prove the debt is owed and owed by you and make it enforceable in the first instance . If they got judgment by default then you would either have to appeal or apply to have the judgment set aside in order to challenge paying it should they come wanting you to honour the judgment. And bearing in mind the length of time since judgment you may have difficulty. You cannot just say "oh well I know you got judgment against me in 2002 but cos you cannot find the CCA i'm not paying it"

 

A court order IS a court order and remains binding until set aside.

 

They may be some mileage in arguing the CCA if they seek to take you back to court to enforce the original judgment, but an enforcement hearing is not a rehearing of the original claim.

 

You are not disputing the debt, the debt remains, the creditors liability under the Act does not cease if the agreement is subject to a court order.

 

Paul

[lemma1968]

You are not disputing the debt, the debt remains, the creditors liability under the Act does not cease if the agreement is subject to a court order.

 

Paul

 

which means that they still have to pay the judgment as it is the debt that is the subject of the Court order. You can complain all you like to the relevant authorities but whilst the judgment exists the debtor will remain liable unless and until it is set aside.

 

I should pm laiste if I were you and then you will find out exactly where you stand.

 

This has been covered in many threads and the consensus of opinion seems to be that if you have a CCJ entered against your name for a debt then there is little point in CCA'ing. Do a general search to find the thread or if Laiste is not available then try Rory32

[paulwlton]

A letter from the OFT outlining sec77-79.

 

Consumer Credit Act 1974 (‘the Act')

Our Ref: Epic/Enq/E/1760

 

Thank you for your email received on 31 March about your enquiry into the Consumer Credit Act Sect 77 & 78.I apologise for the delayed response.

 

The general effects of sections 77-79 requires the creditor/owner (in the case of a hire agreement) under an agreement for (fixed-sum credit, running account credit and hire agreement) to provide the debtor/hirer with a copy of the executed agreement and a statement of account on request.

 

If a creditor/owner fails to comply with a valid request within a period of 12 days (not including the date of receipt of the request) he may not enforce the agreement at all. This prevents enforcement with or without a court order. If a default lasts for a month (for example a calendar month) it constitutes an offence. We understand your concerns in this matter but please do remember however that once the creditor/owner complies with the request albeit out of time, he may once again enforce the agreement.

 

A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement and the statutory content of the agreement. The name, address and signature of the debtor do not have to be provided. Additionally, the creditor must supply the total sum paid under the agreement by the debtor; the total sum which has become payable under the agreement but remains unpaid; and the total sum which is to become payable under the agreement by the debtor (the latter two must include the various amounts comprised in that total sum and the date when each is/was due). However, the copy must be a copy. It need not be exact on immaterial points, but it cannot be a conjectured reconstruction. If the trader has no original copy, the trader will have difficulty showing that he has complied with the regulation by supplying a ‘true copy’, since nobody would know what was in the original. When the trader comes to enforce the debt in court, he needs to have a signed copy of the agreement in order to enforce. As the law stands currently he cannot otherwise.

 

We note your concerns that in the absence of a copy of the original agreement someone's liability for a debt can only lead to further query. However in circumstances like this we would view it is as unfair practice under section 25(2) (d) of the Act and relevant to licence fitness if a trader failed to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate when a debt is queried or disputed.

 

If you would like to make a formal complaint. Please fill in the attached complaint form.

 

Thank you again for writing to us.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

Olu Ademolu

Markets and Projects

Enquires and Preliminary Investigations Centre

[lemma1968]

I suspect that this is inconsistent with the Civil Procedure Rules and County Court Rules and I would be interested where such a claim that it is not enforceable even with a court order is written in statute?

 

Is it in the Consumer Credit Act? If so where? A statement from the OFT is not sufficient to override statute or CPR.

 

If it's right then there will many people throwing parties on this site...maybe including me. Thats why I'm being a bit pedantic.

[alibobsy]

Just a thought after reading the rest of this thread, surely if you can prove the payments you made are higher than the CCJ amount then this CCJ has been satisfied. Any interest/charges added after this date are surely completely separate. Common sense would suggest that the CCJ only stands for the orginal amount, or I am missing something. How much was the CCJ and how much have you paid since the judgement was made?

Mind you I don't know much about Paragon or CCJ's (only had 1 which has been settled and expired several years ago) so just a thought I had.

Good Luck

ali x

[paulwlton]

When a credit agreement is subjected to a CCJ a default notice must be served first, the creditor has certain options one of these is to terminate the credit agreement if this option is not chosen then rights under the agreement remain and therefore a CCA request remains valid.

 

On this basis enforcement action on my court order as ceased.

 

Paul

[joesoap]

I suspect that this is inconsistent with the Civil Procedure Rules and County Court Rules and I would be interested where such a claim that it is not enforceable even with a court order is written in statute?

 

Is it in the Consumer Credit Act? If so where? A statement from the OFT is not sufficient to override statute or CPR.

 

If it's right then there will many people throwing parties on this site...maybe including me. Thats why I'm being a bit pedantic.

 

Yes, I would be another party thrower too. I've a CCJ from 2002 but wouldn't have if I knew then what I know now. I SAR'd Amex and I have an agreement, I haven't really, it's an out and out copy of an application form. I'm busy concocting a letter to Amex to let them know they took me to court illegally. Might be a bit strong but I've nowt to lose but plenty to gain. Removal of the CCJ would be a god - send!

[spuddly]

When a credit agreement is subjected to a CCJ a default notice must be served first, the creditor has certain options one of these is to terminate the credit agreement if this option is not chosen then rights under the agreement remain and therefore a CCA request remains valid.

 

On this basis enforcement action on my court order as ceased.

 

Paul

 

After checking my recent EQUIFAX report I have not been served a default by PARAGON. It was by universal credit but no copy of deed of assignment in the sar request.?

 

At the time of the judgement they were trying to get me to pay £158 mnth pro-rata but all i could affordwas £103 which my DMP set up.

 

 

So they took me to court and i hadnt got a clue as to how to defend myself in court.

[spuddly]

her is the actual amount on the court papers paragon sent me in my sar

 

 

 

 

 

 

i also agree and i think that i have paid enough to these to####rs

i am sure its CONTRACTURAL INTEREST that they are triyng to claim for

Spuddly:)

[tomterm8]

Does the S.A.R. show the payments made on the CCJ? How much have you paid so far according to their records?

[spuddly]

Looked in the sar and there are no refrences to paying the CCJ . I hav paid £15,700 up to date.

 

I have attached the sar request CCJ they have ..

[tomterm8]

And you have proof of payment (e.g. bank statements etc?)

[spuddly]

I will look for bank statements but i do have a record history from the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) ,also i have been with DMP since 03/08/01 and records of all payments from then till now..

Spuddly:)

[tomterm8]

I will look for bank statements but i do have a record history from the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) ,also i have been with DMP since 03/08/04 and records of all payments from then till now..

Spuddly:)

 

By record history, I take it you mean they've sent you a list of all payments you have made? Or that you paid it through a third party company, who will provide proof you paid?

 

A couple of things that are interesting me are:

 

1. So far they have sent you two different credit agreements, both of which have different APR's and BOTH OF WHICH are unsigned.

 

2. They have sent you a CCJ form which states different amounts than there computer records.

 

3. Assuming you have proof of payment, then you have manifestly repaid more than necessary to clear this CCJ AND

 

4. yet they are still demanding money, based on a contractual interest clause without explaining why this is due.

 

I would suggest that for the moment you continue repaying at the rate on the CCJ... but you send the letter asking them to confirm the CCJ has been paid.

 

This is very interesting... once they've sent you the "no" letter, they may be in a great deal of trouble.

[spuddly]

Great and totally agree especially as these documents are supposed to be true representations of all the files they have on me.

I really need help in what to put in my letter ,any suggestions please..

spuddly:)

[tomterm8]

Oh, i would go softly softly. remember, you want them to say that there is still money due; it'll work to your eventual advantage if they do say this.

 

"Dear Mr X,

 

RE: Account no XXX.

 

My records indicate that I have repaid all money due under the above account, and that I have satisfied the county court judgement (claim number XXX).

 

If this correct, i would ask you to confirm this in writing.

 

If not, I would ask you the amount outstanding.

 

Yours Sincerly,

 

XXX"

[spuddly]

nice...

 

i will use this if it ok with you and send them a cheque for £103 for this months payment,RD

The DMP were offering £155 each month but i still reguard this matter in dispute..

[paulwlton]

After checking my recent EQUIFAX report I have not been served a default by PARAGON. It was by universal credit but no copy of deed of assignment in the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) request.?

 

At the time of the judgement they were trying to get me to pay £158 mnth pro-rata but all i could affordwas £103 which my DMP set up.

 

 

So they took me to court and i hadnt got a clue as to how to defend myself in court.

 

Something doesn't sound right.