Universal Credit Loan CCJ - Now Paragon - Paid 19k Still owe 6k

[spuddly]

sent offers today using template from nationaldebtline website to

 

Halifax loan owe £234 offered £140

Halifax overdraft owe £198 offered £120

customer solutions. owe £477 offered £290

[saranev]

Hiya,

They did the same thing with us. I would appreciate some help regarding this too...........cheers mates. I will keep an eye on this thread and see if we can help each other.

Regards

 

saranev

winner of 2 claims..........so far hahaha:p

[spuddly]

hi, sorry for the delay in replying been working... the address i have sent my CCA recored letter to,

PARAGON PERSONAL FINANCE

ST CATHERINE'S COURT

HERBERT ROAD

SOLIHULL

WEST MIDLANDS

B91 QUE

hope this helps.

 

spuddly:)

[spuddly]

sent paragon CCA 20/03/07 no reply

 

sent this letter on 5/05/07

 

Dear sir

 

I refer to my letter dated 17/03/2007 which was delivered via Recorded Delivery to your offices on 20/03/2007.. The documents I requested should be readily available as proof of your legal right to collect this account.

 

In my letter of the 14/03/2007 I made a formal request for a copy of the signed, executed credit agreement for the above account under Section 77(1) and Section 78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and a true signed copy of the Deed of Assignment. In addition a full statement of my account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account from the time PARAGON purchased this account, along with any other documents mentioned in the credit agreement.

 

You are reminded that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not, as defined under Section 189 of the CCA 1974.

 

The Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for this request to be carried out before your company enter into a default situation. If the request is not satisfied after a further 30 calendar days, your company commit an offence. These time limits expired on 04/04/2007 and 04/05/2007 respectively.

 

As you are no doubt aware, Section 78(6) states:

If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) -

(a) He is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

(b) If the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

Therefore on 04/05/2007 this account became unenforceable at law and no further payment will be made by myself to the account, as you have failed to comply with a request for a true signed copy of the said agreement, and other relevant documents mentioned in it, and failed to send a full statement of the account and failed to provide a true copy of the Deed of Assignment, under the relevant sections of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Further, i do not acknowledge any debt to PARAGON

 

I require the following action from PARAGON:

1. All payments made to date to PARAGON for this account should be refunded in full, including interest at the rate of 8% per annum.

2. Removal of all defaults entered by PARAGON. Note this is to be a complete deletion and not merely an amendment.

3. I look forward to compensation under Section 13 of the Data Protection Act 1998 to be offered for the processing of my data in the manner it has been done over the past number of years.

4. After a full refund of all payments with interest and compensation are received by me, you will be required under Section 10 and Section 12 of the Data Protection Act 1998 to cease and desist all manual and automatic processing of my data within your company and any other company within your group.

 

If you do not respond positively to my request, court action may be taken under Section 14 of the Data Protection Act 1998 to force PARAGON or any other company within the group to comply with the refund of all monies paid, removal of all defaults maintained and compensation for damage and distress as a result of unlawful data processing. I may also pass the matter to the relevant enforcement authorities including, but not limited to, the OFT, the Information Commissioners Office, Trading Standards, the CSA, the FOS and my local MP.

 

I look forward to your reply within 14 days to resolve the matter amicably.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

ME:D

also reported them to FOS..

 

RECEIVED REPLY 14/05/07

 

Dear Mr XXXXXXXXXX

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER XXXXXXXXX

 

Thank you for your letter dated 4 May 2007

 

I am presently investigating the comments you have raised and will forward a full response shortly.

If, in the meantime i can be of any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me

 

Yours sincerely

MRS CAROLINE WORTON

CUSTOMER SERVICING MANAGER

 

Spuddly:)

[spuddly]

Well its been a week now since i paid for a CCJ search still no results...!!

[saranev]

hiya spuddly,

what a fab letter, i will be watching this thread as i had a loan with Paragon, when we settled it after only one year they charged us a massive amount re ppi.

Good Luck mate

[alisono]

Hi

 

Sorry been workimng away.... just a little help please, as I said Paragon Charged me £19k when I redeemed this secured loan for what I think is mis-sold insurance. I have the account number, but no paperwork and of course I settled it in 2005. What course of action should I take, this by the way was the catalyst to my debt. I ad to get another secured laon from Future who are now just as bad. |I want to repay them in full but they want 6% ERP charges making me pay £7k ... any help appreciated.

[buster642]

Well its been a week now since i paid for a CCJ search still no results...!!

 

One thing to remember is that even if a search comes back with no results it doesn't mean that there is no CCJ.

 

The Registry Trust and CRA's keep them on file for 6 years from the date of judgement.

 

You mentioned 1998 in the thread, so if a CCJ was granted in that year, there will no longer be any searchable record of it.

 

But a CCJ can be enforced indefinately, not just in the 6 years that it is visible. To do this, they would need to produce a copy of it to show that a judgement exists.

 

 

For this reason, it's very important that when you have paid off a CCJ, that you keep proof of payment indefinately (i.e. for life) to prevent some chancer from trying enforce the CCJ 15-20 years later. Remember, once a judgement exists, the burden of proof is on you to prove you don't owe the money.

 

 

 

Back to the point, it's important that you establish how much interest is being charged and upon what basis. Normally on a CCJ, you cannot charge interest unless the judgement amount is over 5K and even then, I believe it is a flat rate 8%

 

But as stated, Paragon have a very nasty "interest after judgement" clause (which is legal) that means they can charge more than 8%. The question is, was this clause in the original credit agreement you signed with Universal.

 

A very rough calculation from the numbers/dates you have given seems to indicate an interest rate of about 20%. At 8% you probably would have paid it off.

[spuddly]

I do not hold any such documents from the outcome of the court ruling...

how does that apply in this case.

any input would be appreciated.

Spuddly:)

[spuddly]

received a response from RTL from the CCJ search i did on myself and there were NONE RECORDED.

 

I still have had no response from paragon and Barclay card regarding CCA or S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) requests, Do i now wait for 6 years as it has well passed the 12/30 day limitation.

 

 

 

WON####http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/85300-citifinancial-unable-find-my.html#post769723###WON

[buster642]

received a response from RTL from the CCJ search i did on myself and there were NONE RECORDED.

 

Like I said earlier, it doesn't mean that none exist. However, if you thought they might have taken you to court in 2002, then it should still have been on the register, so a positive.

 

I still have had no response from paragon and Barclay card regarding CCA or S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) requests, Do i now wait for 6 years as it has well passed the 12/30 day limitation.

 

Assuming there was no CCJ, then probably yes.

 

However, if they have obtained a CCJ, then they can enforce it at any point in the future. However, the longer time goes by, the less likely it is that they will actually have a copy of the CCJ to prove that it exists. Also a judge may take a dim view of them crawling out of the woodwork after 15 years and wanting to add on 15 years worth of interest, so enforcing it will be harder for them - though not impossible.

[spuddly]

OK received SAR from paragon today included was a copy of the alleged agreement.

plus some details of CCJ placed on this account back in 2002.

 

However there are inconsistencies... (don't wish to disclose too much about this bit on an open forum never know who's reading these !!).

 

how do i upload alleged credit agreement sent to me ?

[spuddly]

no T&C

[spuddly]

Hi all,

Paragon finally replied today,

 

Brief history...CCa req march 07 none compliance

S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) request may 07 recieved today.

 

everything seems in order as far as i am aware, however it does contain a CCA without signatures and no date.

This account has been running since 1997. Failed to meet payments so

2001-Joined DMP

2002-defaulted

CCJ summons allegedly served 03/04/02

 

The creditors cannot provide me with a PROPERLY EXECUTED CCA.

How do i stand in relation to the CCJ i appear to have been issued...

[sequenci]

are you sure they don't have a copy which is properly executed?

 

with regards to a request under s77/78 of the act, it doesn't have to include signatures.

[ncf355]

Also Spuddly,

 

you've scanned that in way too low a resolution, cant view it im afraid?

 

If you can get a high res scan put up, we might be able to help, the list that makes it 'improperly executed' (as opposed to 'unenforceable) is endless, and whilst it MAY not wipe the debt it would most likely be a BIG help

 

Example, if they have failed to send you a copy of the executed agreement with each new card you may be able to get all interest charged since then back (thats Section 85)

[spuddly]

it doesn't have to include signatures.

 

Surely a True "properly executed credit agreement"

must contain signatures from both parties, T&C ,% rate and dated otherwise

Whats the point of signing credit agreements .

[spuddly]

can i pm you ncf35 for a better look ?

[ncf355]

no probs

 

wont get to it until tonight though m8

[dx100uk]

check with a cra that you do have a CCJ or not

if a ccj exists, then i see little point in a CCA request?

 

dx100uk

[sequenci]

Surely a True "properly executed credit agreement"

must contain signatures from both parties, T&C ,% rate and dated otherwise

Whats the point of signing credit agreements .

 

that is true, however, when you request a copy agreement under s77/78 the "copy" agreement doesn't have to inlude them.

 

on occasion a perfectly adhered to request for this info wouldn't prove whether or not an agreement is unforceable or not.

[spuddly]

Received SAR request today from Paragon

 

They have judgment details for the CCJ

guess the CCA does not apply now (even though there is no visible signature and date on the copy)

full log of everything said and done since opening the account back in 1997.

[spuddly]

I have looked into the CCJ with PARAGON and the courts set the payment to £103 back in june 2002 .

 

 

Can they make me pay anymore, do i offer a payment i consider to be reasonable.

 

 

How can i get them to stop adding interest..!!

[buster642]

Received S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) request today from Paragon

 

They have judgment details for the CCJ

guess the CCA does not apply now (even though there is no visible signature and date on the copy)

full log of everything said and done since opening the account back in 1997.

 

While you cannot use the CCA to deny the debt, the point is that if there is no signature on the form, then the same principles of the CCA apply in that the additional debt cannot be enforced if they "interest following judgement" clause is either not there, or not signed.

 

Throughout all this, bear in mind that there is a good possibility that they could just be trying it on - hoping that you'll just cave in and effectively sign over your house to them for a £3,900 loan.

 

You don't neccessarily need to prove your case - just show them that you're prepared to put up enough of a fight and that you won't be pushed over. Just like most predators, they tend to go after the weak first and tend to back down from the feisty ones for fear of them biting back.

 

 

As I said, I think you need some professional advice on this. They might not be bluffing.

[spuddly]

I have looked again at a link mentioned earlier:

 

National Debtline England & Wales | Debt Advice | Factsheet 18 Interest Charges On A Consumer Credit Judgment

 

This parargraph seems relevant at this time

 

Contractual interest

Some credit agreements allow a creditor to add contractual interest on to the amount of the county court judgment.

This has been confirmed as legally binding following a court of appeal case taken by the Office of Fair Trading against First National Bank. This means that, while you are paying the county court judgment, contractual interest may be charged on the amount that you still owe on the judgment. This may not be made clear to you by the creditor.

 

If this is the case, when you have paid the original balance owed on the judgment, you will find that you have an extra amount that you may still owe the creditor, even though the judgment has been paid in full. To force you to pay this, the creditor would have to take you to court again.

 

ADVICE

To work out whether you have paid the judgment balance, you should check your own payment record or contact the creditor to seek written confirmation that the county court judgment amount has been paid in full.

 

I have been through the SAR which they sent me and after totalling up the repayments on this account for a £10,000 loan, i have actually paid back £15,684.93.

 

Now as my original loan was £10k and the litigation section of paragons documents state that

amount claimed was £9528.17

court costs £230.00

Solicitors costs £100.00

total amount £9858.17

 

i was wondering if i had paid them enough and the extra £8012.10 they say i STILL owe upto today is actually CONTRACTRAL INTERSEST they slapped on top.

Also why do i end up paying the court costs etc. when the court knew of my situation and reduced my repayment to PARAGON.

 

Do they have to take me to court to get the rest of the Dosh!!