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CCA 'Vs' CCJ


spuddly
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Hi all,

Paragon finally replied today,

 

Brief history...CCa req march 07 none compliance

S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) request may 07 recieved today.

 

everything seems in order as far as i am aware, however it does contain a CCA without signatures and no date.

This account has been running since 1997. Failed to meet payments so

2001-Joined DMP

2002-defaulted

CCJ summons allegedly served 03/04/02

 

The creditors cannot provide me with a PROPERLY EXECUTED CCA.

How do i stand in relation to the CCJ i appear to have been issued... :)

CITIFINANCIAL

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/85300-citifinancial-unable-find-my.html

:D :D ###WON###:D :D

 

## natsy westy result £250:p

## Halifax overdraft settled ##

## Halifax loan settled ##

## chatham settled ##

## paragon suite closed##

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Also Spuddly,

 

you've scanned that in way too low a resolution, cant view it im afraid?

 

If you can get a high res scan put up, we might be able to help, the list that makes it 'improperly executed' (as opposed to 'unenforceable) is endless, and whilst it MAY not wipe the debt it would most likely be a BIG help

 

Example, if they have failed to send you a copy of the executed agreement with each new card you may be able to get all interest charged since then back (thats Section 85)

omnia praesumuntur legitime facta donec probetur in contrarium

 

 

Please note: I am not a member of the legal profession, all advice given is purely my opinion, if in doubt consult a professional

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it doesn't have to include signatures.

 

Surely a True "properly executed credit agreement"

must contain signatures from both parties, T&C ,% rate and dated otherwise

Whats the point of signing credit agreements .

:)

CITIFINANCIAL

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/85300-citifinancial-unable-find-my.html

:D :D ###WON###:D :D

 

## natsy westy result £250:p

## Halifax overdraft settled ##

## Halifax loan settled ##

## chatham settled ##

## paragon suite closed##

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can i pm you ncf35 for a better look :) ?

CITIFINANCIAL

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/85300-citifinancial-unable-find-my.html

:D :D ###WON###:D :D

 

## natsy westy result £250:p

## Halifax overdraft settled ##

## Halifax loan settled ##

## chatham settled ##

## paragon suite closed##

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no probs

 

wont get to it until tonight though m8

omnia praesumuntur legitime facta donec probetur in contrarium

 

 

Please note: I am not a member of the legal profession, all advice given is purely my opinion, if in doubt consult a professional

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check with a cra that you do have a CCJ or not

if a ccj exists, then i see little point in a CCA request?

 

dx100uk

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Surely a True "properly executed credit agreement"

must contain signatures from both parties, T&C ,% rate and dated otherwise

Whats the point of signing credit agreements .

:)

 

that is true, however, when you request a copy agreement under s77/78 the "copy" agreement doesn't have to inlude them.

 

on occasion a perfectly adhered to request for this info wouldn't prove whether or not an agreement is unforceable or not.

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I have looked into the CCJ with PARAGON and the courts set the payment to £103 back in june 2002 .

 

 

Can they make me pay anymore, do i offer a payment i consider to be reasonable.

 

 

How can i get them to stop adding interest..!! :)

CITIFINANCIAL

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/85300-citifinancial-unable-find-my.html

:D :D ###WON###:D :D

 

## natsy westy result £250:p

## Halifax overdraft settled ##

## Halifax loan settled ##

## chatham settled ##

## paragon suite closed##

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i was under the impression that if a ccj had been issued, then interest must stop.

 

dx100uk

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

Hi there - been reading this thread with interest as I have a problem with Paragon, however, re CCJs, my understanding is that whatever was agreed in that judgement is the existing condition/agreement, no change can be made to the payment amount, interest or not, without going back into court with it. Hope this helps.

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check with a cra that you do have a CCJ or not

if a ccj exists, then i see little point in a CCA request?

 

dx100uk

 

A CCA request is still legally binding even if the credit agreement as been subjected to a CCJ.

 

Paul

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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true, take that the otherway around then.

if latterly a cca request cannot be not met,

could not the earlier ccj be overturned then?

or do i remember reading somewhere that if the defaulter does not appear, nothing is checked [as such] on the creditors side as it is deemed sucessful by default?

 

dx100uk

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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these are the documents i am referring to

 

paragon sent thisagreementfordisplayonly2.jpg

 

 

i already had this from the startuniversaledit.jpg

CITIFINANCIAL

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/85300-citifinancial-unable-find-my.html

:D :D ###WON###:D :D

 

## natsy westy result £250:p

## Halifax overdraft settled ##

## Halifax loan settled ##

## chatham settled ##

## paragon suite closed##

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Share on other sites

I spoke to the courts yesterday and they told me that the CCj is still applicable but that Paragon have not entered details on it since 2002, so i need to send them a strong letter asking for clarification of my CCj .

My rough accounts from the sar request works out at$almost£16k an they took me to court for £10k.

I wonder if they will be genuine in there reply seeing as the CCA was hand written???

 

portion of T&C (having problems scanning)detailsrelatingtosignatureparagon.jpg

 

 

CCJ from 2002 (sar )ccjEDIT.jpg

 

 

back2.jpg

 

 

ccjpt3.jpg

 

 

totalsccj.jpg

CITIFINANCIAL

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/85300-citifinancial-unable-find-my.html

:D :D ###WON###:D :D

 

## natsy westy result £250:p

## Halifax overdraft settled ##

## Halifax loan settled ##

## chatham settled ##

## paragon suite closed##

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could someone point me in the right direction as to what to put in my assertive but polite letter?..plesase:)

 

also seeing as the CCJ is still active and i have come out of my DMP should i still send payment for this month or do my actions still make the matter in dispute!!!:confused:

CITIFINANCIAL

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/85300-citifinancial-unable-find-my.html

:D :D ###WON###:D :D

 

## natsy westy result £250:p

## Halifax overdraft settled ##

## Halifax loan settled ##

## chatham settled ##

## paragon suite closed##

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Share on other sites

true, take that the otherway around then.

if latterly a cca request cannot be not met,

could not the earlier ccj be overturned then?

or do i remember reading somewhere that if the defaulter does not appear, nothing is checked [as such] on the creditors side as it is deemed sucessful by default?

 

dx100uk

 

If a creditor fails in providing a copy of the original agreement under a CCA request he cannot enforce the agreement whether subject to a court order or not.

 

Paul

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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If a creditor fails in providing a copy of the original agreement under a CCA request he cannot enforce the agreement whether subject to a court order or not.

 

Paul

 

I'm not sure about that at all. The whole purpose of it going to court is to prove the debt is owed and owed by you and make it enforceable in the first instance . If they got judgment by default then you would either have to appeal or apply to have the judgment set aside in order to challenge paying it should they come wanting you to honour the judgment. And bearing in mind the length of time since judgment you may have difficulty. You cannot just say "oh well I know you got judgment against me in 2002 but cos you cannot find the CCA i'm not paying it"

 

A court order IS a court order and remains binding until set aside.

 

They may be some mileage in arguing the CCA if they seek to take you back to court to enforce the original judgment, but an enforcement hearing is not a rehearing of the original claim.

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I'm not sure about that at all. The whole purpose of it going to court is to prove the debt is owed and owed by you and make it enforceable in the first instance . If they got judgment by default then you would either have to appeal or apply to have the judgment set aside in order to challenge paying it should they come wanting you to honour the judgment. And bearing in mind the length of time since judgment you may have difficulty. You cannot just say "oh well I know you got judgment against me in 2002 but cos you cannot find the CCA i'm not paying it"

 

A court order IS a court order and remains binding until set aside.

 

They may be some mileage in arguing the CCA if they seek to take you back to court to enforce the original judgment, but an enforcement hearing is not a rehearing of the original claim.

 

You are not disputing the debt, the debt remains, the creditors liability under the Act does not cease if the agreement is subject to a court order.

 

Paul

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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You are not disputing the debt, the debt remains, the creditors liability under the Act does not cease if the agreement is subject to a court order.

 

Paul

 

which means that they still have to pay the judgment as it is the debt that is the subject of the Court order. You can complain all you like to the relevant authorities but whilst the judgment exists the debtor will remain liable unless and until it is set aside.

 

I should pm laiste if I were you and then you will find out exactly where you stand.

 

This has been covered in many threads and the consensus of opinion seems to be that if you have a CCJ entered against your name for a debt then there is little point in CCA'ing. Do a general search to find the thread or if Laiste is not available then try Rory32

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A letter from the OFT outlining sec77-79.

 

Consumer Credit Act 1974 (‘the Act')

Our Ref: Epic/Enq/E/1760

 

Thank you for your email received on 31 March about your enquiry into the Consumer Credit Act Sect 77 & 78.I apologise for the delayed response.

 

The general effects of sections 77-79 requires the creditor/owner (in the case of a hire agreement) under an agreement for (fixed-sum credit, running account credit and hire agreement) to provide the debtor/hirer with a copy of the executed agreement and a statement of account on request.

 

If a creditor/owner fails to comply with a valid request within a period of 12 days (not including the date of receipt of the request) he may not enforce the agreement at all. This prevents enforcement with or without a court order. If a default lasts for a month (for example a calendar month) it constitutes an offence. We understand your concerns in this matter but please do remember however that once the creditor/owner complies with the request albeit out of time, he may once again enforce the agreement.

 

A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement and the statutory content of the agreement. The name, address and signature of the debtor do not have to be provided. Additionally, the creditor must supply the total sum paid under the agreement by the debtor; the total sum which has become payable under the agreement but remains unpaid; and the total sum which is to become payable under the agreement by the debtor (the latter two must include the various amounts comprised in that total sum and the date when each is/was due). However, the copy must be a copy. It need not be exact on immaterial points, but it cannot be a conjectured reconstruction. If the trader has no original copy, the trader will have difficulty showing that he has complied with the regulation by supplying a ‘true copy’, since nobody would know what was in the original. When the trader comes to enforce the debt in court, he needs to have a signed copy of the agreement in order to enforce. As the law stands currently he cannot otherwise.

 

We note your concerns that in the absence of a copy of the original agreement someone's liability for a debt can only lead to further query. However in circumstances like this we would view it is as unfair practice under section 25(2) (d) of the Act and relevant to licence fitness if a trader failed to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate when a debt is queried or disputed.

 

If you would like to make a formal complaint. Please fill in the attached complaint form.

 

Thank you again for writing to us.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

Olu Ademolu

Markets and Projects

Enquires and Preliminary Investigations Centre

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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I suspect that this is inconsistent with the Civil Procedure Rules and County Court Rules and I would be interested where such a claim that it is not enforceable even with a court order is written in statute?

 

Is it in the Consumer Credit Act? If so where? A statement from the OFT is not sufficient to override statute or CPR.

 

If it's right then there will many people throwing parties on this site...maybe including me. Thats why I'm being a bit pedantic.

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When a credit agreement is subjected to a CCJ a default notice must be served first, the creditor has certain options one of these is to terminate the credit agreement if this option is not chosen then rights under the agreement remain and therefore a CCA request remains valid.

 

On this basis enforcement action on my court order as ceased.

 

Paul

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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I suspect that this is inconsistent with the Civil Procedure Rules and County Court Rules and I would be interested where such a claim that it is not enforceable even with a court order is written in statute?

 

Is it in the Consumer Credit Act? If so where? A statement from the OFT is not sufficient to override statute or CPR.

 

If it's right then there will many people throwing parties on this site...maybe including me. Thats why I'm being a bit pedantic.

 

Yes, I would be another party thrower too. I've a CCJ from 2002 but wouldn't have if I knew then what I know now. I SAR'd Amex and I have an agreement, I haven't really, it's an out and out copy of an application form. I'm busy concocting a letter to Amex to let them know they took me to court illegally. Might be a bit strong but I've nowt to lose but plenty to gain. Removal of the CCJ would be a god - send!

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