Any examples of No CCA produced Court Wins

[tsiman]

Maybe I haven't looked hard enough, but I have not been able to find any examples of cases where someone has won a case where a CCA request has been made and not produced when the case comes to court.

 

I am about to go head on with Amex/RMA based on things I have read on this board. But I do feal a bit uncomfortable that I have not found any cases where someone has won in court.

 

Sent CCA request to Amex and to RMA by special delivery. Both signed for and both cheques cashed. But neither has delivered the CCA.

 

They are now in default but continuing to make calls.

 

Any feedback on how these things pan out would be very good for the nerves!

[rory32]

The most prominent case would be Wilson and others v Secretary of Trade and Industry. This was a House of Lords ruling which upheld s127(3) of the CCA1974.

[louiboy]

Recently had Black Horse abandon a court case against myself. The Sheriff (Scotland) had marked as a point for proof.

 

Agreement requested October 2006 - None produced within 12 days.

Action should be dismissed.

 

Second Sheriff at the start of proof announced the case was a frivolous waste of court time and I would be awarded the case.

 

Just after the hearing BH instructed their solicitors to abandon. I can't speak for the Sheriffs. However it would be reasonable to assume they were choosing to dismiss for none compliance.

[lookinforinfo]

In McGinn v Grangewood Securities 2002 the Judge has this to say

It follows that in a case where there is no document signed by the debtor which contains all the prescribed terms of the agreement the court has no power to make an enforcement order

 

In the light of that very clear interpretation by the Judge [and he is not the

first Judge to have echoed that position ], it would seem likely that

most companies would thus avoid going to Court when they cannot produce

the executed agreement.

[NitrousOxide]

Hi,

Plus the OFT have echoed this as well.

[lookinforinfo]

Tsiman, if they are still in default, but have not yet reached the offence

stage, then I suggest that you grit your teeth for a little longer. Ignore

their calls and do not have ant sort of dialogue with them if you do end up

answering the phone. Just put the phone down without talking to them..

 

Do not alert them to the fact that you know that once they have committed

an offence the debt is then unenforceable if they cannot supply the

executed agreement. When did you send RMA the CCA request-and did you

include the £1 payment and send it by recorded delivery?

[cazza1968]

The most prominent case would be Wilson and others v Secretary of Trade and Industry. This was a House of Lords ruling which upheld s127(3) of the CCA1974.

 

Do you have a full citation for this cos I will try and find it on British and Irish Legal Information Institute ?

[rory32]

Just google Wilson and others

[payingonlyencouragesthem]

As you have probably seen, a few CAG members have lost cases because the judge ignored the law and passed judgment on the basis of statements etc. This being the case it would be wise to get someone with experience of drafting defences to help you out if it gets to the court stage so the judge is boxed in and has to follow the law.

[tsiman]

I sent both letters by special delivery and they were both delivered on 24th May. So 12 days was up last thursday. Both cheques have been cashed.

 

But Amex did reply and said they included a copy of both the "terms and conditions" and copy default notice.

 

Neither was actually included (and the envelope was postmarked 31 May with the letter dated Monday 26th May which was a bank holiday!)

[lookinforinfo]

Tsiman the time stipulated in the Act is two days to allow foe delivery and

then twelve working days before the default commences. As weekends and

bank holidays don't count, the default won't come into force til Tuesday or

maybe Wednesday, if you posted the letters on the 23rd May. Thereafter you have a further month to wait until they have committed an offence and the debt should become unenforceable.

 

You will have to reply to Amex advising them that the alleged contents were not included. This is to prevent problems perhaps at a later time.

[tsiman]

Obvously a danger of writing a note at 21.50 on a Saturday. Obvously I meant Monday 28th May was a bank holiday (hic!).

 

Amex have been written to telling them they did not include what they said they did.

 

Is this a way of getting round the default, I wonder...

 

They state that they have sent documents when they have not. But how do I prove they have not.

[lookinforinfo]

You obviously cannot prove that you didn't receive them-only they can admit they made a mistake.

However, if you don't write and tell them now, it will appear in future that

they did send them as the longer you leave it, the less credible your statement will be. so well done for being so quick off the mark.

[tsiman]

OK. How about this.

 

They admit they have omitted to send the documents. Can they continue as normal once they have sent a copy of the CCA.

 

I have read on the board that they have to get permission from a court to enforce once they have defaulted (which they did Thur/Fri)

[lookinforinfo]

Not quite. It is only after they commit an offence that a Court Order is required.

 

However it is possible that they did intend to include the two documents

for you [perhaps at the same time as several others being sent their documents] and they meant to get them out on time as they know they cannot ptovide the original agreement. Why else would they include a document they don't need to send [the default notice]?

[Fullyskinted]

Right, what if youre in the situation that after 5 mths they produce a ****ty copy of a CCA 'document'?

THey have persued me for payments the entire time, so I cant see them wanting to stop now that they have (in their opinion) satisfied the CCA Section 78 Request!

In fact it would probably make it even worse! They have listed a missed payment on my credit file too to make matters worse, this was BEFORE the document arrived. As per the std procedure, I ignored the phone calls, threats of Debt Collectors etc and TBH am REALLY ****ed at them...

 

So I now need to fight my corner again and Im looking for help asap - Ill be starting a thread of my own on the subject shortly too...

 

But my question is, what do I do about them at the moment?

 

Do I write to them and say "GET STUFFED, you need a court order!" (Obviously, aswell as "GET STUFFED, you havent satisfied the CCA Req!")

[lookinforinfo]

Fullyskinted, I think it would be a good idea if you were to start your own

thread. The position you are in is different from Tsimans' so advice to you

both might get confusing.

 

I would be inclined to ignore them and complain to Trading Standards. First

beecause you are being harassed while they are in breach of the Act. And

second, if you are sure that the copy they sent is incorrect, then they

were trying to deceive you-both reasons to call into question their suitability

to hold a Consumer Credit Licence.

[Fullyskinted]

Yeh sure im gonna start a new thread and then link to it on all the relevant threads

 

I will scan and copy all recieved letters I think

[meshi]

Not quite. It is only after they commit an offence that a Court Order is required.

 

However it is possible that they did intend to include the two documents

for you [perhaps at the same time as several others being sent their documents] and they meant to get them out on time as they know thhey cannot ptovide the original agreement. Why else would they include a document they don't need to send [the default notice]?

 

Hi there just wandering where it stipulates that you need a court order once they have gone past the time where they commit a criminal offence, as it will help with my case. Thanks

[Fullyskinted]

Hi there just wandering where it stipulates that you need a court order once they have gone past the time where they commit a criminal offence, as it will help with my case. Thanks

 

 

Me too!

[ODC]

You obviously cannot prove that you didn't receive them-only they can admit they made a mistake.

However, if you don't write and tell them now, it will appear in future that

they did send them as the longer you leave it, the less credible your statement will be. so well done for being so quick off the mark.

Similarly they cannot prove yo did receive them. How about a statement from a neighbour who happened to be an upstanding member of the community (Policeman, Doctor etc) who was present when you opened the letter from the purveyors of falsehood. Im sure his honour would know who to believe

[meshi]

Similarly they cannot prove yo did receive them. How about a statement from a neighbour who happened to be an upstanding member of the community (Policeman, Doctor etc) who was present when you opened the letter from the purveyors of falsehood. Im sure his honour would know who to believe

 

What you mean like perjury

[SteveH2508]

Not quite. It is only after they commit an offence that a Court Order is required.

 

 

They do not need a court order to enforce the agreement if they comply fully with the S77/78 request, albeit out of time. The offence is for not supplying within 12+30 days. If they do then supply, they can continue to enforce the agreement as it was before the S77/78 request (Civil Law). The criminal offence does still exist however, even though it has been mitigated (Criminal Law).

[ODC]

I am in no way suggesting you commit perjury. But if you had an independent witness present when you opened the letter and they could prove that the required documents were not in the envelope as the DCA claimed they were it would fairly strengthen your case. What would happen in court then is the DCAs solicitor would say '' I am instucted by my clients (the DCA) that these documents were enclosed. (*Note the solicitor will never say THESE DOCUMENTS WERE ENCLOSED*) If you turn up at Court with a reputable witness who can testfy on oath that he was present when the letter was opened and the said documents were not contained therin and the envelope did not appear to have been tampered with. I think that would make your case more credible.

[meshi]

I am in no way suggesting you commit perjury. But if you had an independent witness present when you opened the letter and they could prove that the required documents were not in the envelope as the DCA claimed they were it would fairly strengthen your case. What would happen in court then is the DCAs solicitor would say '' I am instucted by my clients (the DCA) that these documents were enclosed. (*Note the solicitor will never say THESE DOCUMENTS WERE ENCLOSED*) If you turn up at Court with a reputable witness who can testfy on oath that he was present when the letter was opened and the said documents were not contained therin and the envelope did not appear to have been tampered with. I think that would make your case more credible.

 

I was pulling your leg mate:)