Wescot/RBofS.....Oh Dear!!

[The GodMother]

sorry the letter is not at the begining it is on page 2 i will find it for u

[The GodMother]

the statements are important as they need to prove where the balance brought forward came from. If they cant then they need to discontinue that side of it.

[Goldlady]

I have been through this one in court. If they can't show where the original balance came from then they have no evidence, effectively.

[alanalana]

Hello Rory,

 

Just had a 12 month fight with RBS over PPI issues and still got complaint lodged with the ICO. Got some payback on the PPI issue but not yet posted as a success until I get the ICO result.

 

Please have a look at this massive thread to see what RBS get up to:eek:

 

alanalana PPI claim against RBS (looking for some help) please

 

The sad thing is my success if you can call it that came after the government stepped in and took over 70% control of RBS with our money. That means I am literally paying myself mis-sold PPI refund.

 

Sir (hopefully Her Majesty will look again at his knighthood and re-think) Fred Good Win ( correct name then on his RBS Pension Result ). Walks away with a load of cash having allegedly getting his staff to rip off customers on PPI to the tune of his pension with the offers of nice bonuses (Nice work if you can get it) There is actually on the RBS site a transcript of a meeting where PPI is mentioned.

 

Ihave searched for this but so far unable to find it. Basically it is a transcript of sir fred goodwin having a joke about the RBS and how far up the scale they are on PPI sales:eek:

 

If I can find the site I will post

 

aa

[lexis200]

Thanks very much for that Goldlady and Godmother, it gives me a bit of a confidence boost for dealing with them:)

 

I wonder if anyone would mind casting an eye over an extract of a letter I've written for BofS?... Essentially they have sent me an illegible application form with no prescribed terms and no historic terms on 4 occasions now. They have stated on more than one occasion that it is an enforceable agreement, and in their latest letter said 'We believe we have provided the required documentation to demonstrate a fully executed agreement under section 78 of the CCA1974'

 

I have taken that to mean they are categorically stating this is my agreement?

 

Anyway, I've nicked a bit of rory's letter to include the AML angle. I had to tweak as they have sent me something, so I hope it's ok -

 

You confirmed in your last letter that your opinion, and therefore the Bank of Scotland’s opinion, is that the piece of paper you have sent to me four times is a fully executed agreement. It is not, and it would appear that you have failed in your obligations to comply with the various anti money laundering regulations in not keeping such an important document as a contractually binding, valid agreement, if indeed any such document ever existed. This, as I’m sure you are aware, is a very serious offence.

 

In light of the above I respectfully suggest you re-consider your thoughts on reducing my balance to zero.

 

The only thing that concerns me is if it prompts them into court action. I know that what they have sent is rubbish (and they also have not sent anything under either an SAR or the CPR, both made 2/3 months ago), but I still have that horrible nagging doubt...

 

Any thoughts would be very gratefully recieved.

 

Lexis:)

[Muffintop]

Lexus.... have you previously asked for a full and final settlement under cpr rulings? is this why you are asking for balance to be reduced to 0? as you have already tried to negotiate?? or are you asking for balance to be shown as 0 because they dont have an enforceable agreement?? bit confused where you would go after all avenues have been exhaused except to wait for them to take you to court..

[Muffintop]

I have to day received the following letter from RBS:

 

Thank you for your letter dated 25 June 2006 (yes this is the date they state in their letter), which was received into this Office on 6 July 2007 (it was delivered by SD on 26 June 2007 it’s not my fault they have poor admin).

 

As we are at this time, unable to retrieve from our records sufficient information to enable us to satisfy your request under s78 (1) of the CCA, we are treating the outstanding balance of the account as discharged and the credit agreement as ended.

 

The required amendment has been made to the information held with the Credit Reference Agencies and the entry has been updated as ‘Default Balance Satisfied’. The satisfaction on the account confirms to any lender that there are no longer any monies outstanding in respect to the above numbered credit card account.

 

Our position is that the monies you owed under the agreement were properly due and payable. The default notice was properly served (we’ll see about that at a later date) and your failure to remedy the default within the prescribed period resulted in our reporting the default to credit reference agencies.

 

We consider that our processing of your personal data is fair, lawful and warranted in the circumstances. Notification of ‘default information’ on your card account to Credit Reference Agencies was carried out in accordance with long established procedures. Details of these procedures were contained in the credit agreement/application form you would have signed in 1999 when you applied for the card (after which the credit card was issued to you) and amended versions that accompanied subsequent Notice of Variations (which will have been sent to you when your card was in use and you did not, at any time, signify your refusal to consent by repaying the debt and terminating the agreement), and have been notified to the Information Commissioner’s Office. We are satisfied that the default on your account was properly notified to the Credit Reference Agencies and you would have received the appropriate Data Protection Act notifications on the reporting of defaults.

 

If you disagree, you have the right to apply to the court to have inaccurate personal data rectified, blocked, erased, or destroyed. Further information is available from the Information Commissioner’s website: www.ico.gov.uk

 

I would inform you that, given the processing of your personal data was consented to by you (in the way described above), you cannot retrospectively withdraw that consent after the processing has been carried out. We do not accept your notice under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act 1998 and do not intend to comply with it.

 

Rory I know this is very old now... how did you push them into a corner to come to this decision.

[lexis200]

Hi Muffintop

 

Rory's result was due to the letter he sent on page 2, which included the money laundering angle shown in my para above.

 

I have not asked them for a f+f as they have categorically stated that the blatant application they have sent OH is a fully executed and valid agreement. In 7 months they have not taken OH to court, but BlairOS did send a NIP. I responded to this with a request under the CPR back in November, but despite reminding them that they have not even acknowledged the request (and ignoring the actual question I asked about it in my reminder), they have not bothered to send anything.

 

They can't do the court route as they have diddly squat to go on (which they are well aware of), so they are left with nothing. Apart from anything they have lied on more than one occasion in their letters, and to have them shown in court would not do them any favours. That said, it doesn't stop me worrying that they may do it anyway.

 

Essentially, they have not been paid for several months, and will not be paid. I worked out all the spend and use on the card, and OH has paid back a few thousand more than he ever used. With all of this - unenforceable application, no historic terms, dubious practices shown in writing, and the debt paid back and then some (so all that's left is interest and charges) - I just want a finish to it. This is what I am considering using as a last ditch attempt. It worked well for rory and another member on this thread, and I'm willing to give it a try as long as I'm not saying anything ridiculous which may undermine anything else I've done.

 

I'm not sure if that's any clearer or if I've just waffled for half a page, but it's late and I'm very tired so I'll clean it up tomorrow if this is a senseless post:D

[Muffintop]

Hi Muffintop

 

Rory's result was due to the letter he sent on page 2, which included the money laundering angle shown in my para above.

 

I have not asked them for a f+f as they have categorically stated that the blatant application they have sent OH is a fully executed and valid agreement. In 7 months they have not taken OH to court, but BlairOS did send a NIP. I responded to this with a request under the CPR back in November, but despite reminding them that they have not even acknowledged the request (and ignoring the actual question I asked about it in my reminder), they have not bothered to send anything.

 

They can't do the court route as they have diddly squat to go on (which they are well aware of), so they are left with nothing. Apart from anything they have lied on more than one occasion in their letters, and to have them shown in court would not do them any favours. That said, it doesn't stop me worrying that they may do it anyway.

 

Essentially, they have not been paid for several months, and will not be paid. I worked out all the spend and use on the card, and OH has paid back a few thousand more than he ever used. With all of this - unenforceable application, no historic terms, dubious practices shown in writing, and the debt paid back and then some (so all that's left is interest and charges) - I just want a finish to it. This is what I am considering using as a last ditch attempt. It worked well for rory and another member on this thread, and I'm willing to give it a try as long as I'm not saying anything ridiculous which may undermine anything else I've done.

 

I'm not sure if that's any clearer or if I've just waffled for half a page, but it's late and I'm very tired so I'll clean it up tomorrow if this is a senseless post:D

 

Lexis, thankyou for takin time to clear up my questions.

Just need a little more clarification if you would be so kind.

 

 

as they have categorically stated that the blatant application they have sent OH is a fully executed and valid

does this mean that if my cc provider has responded to my cca request by sending application forms and current t and c's they havent complied either and send fully executed valid agreement and I should now be sending cpr request.. my case only been ongoing since nove 08

 

 

7 months they have not taken OH to court, but BlairOS did send a NIP.

What is an NIP? presume OH is otherhalf?

 

they have lied on more than one occasion in their letters, and to have them shown in court would not do them any favours.

 

would you mind even if via pm giving me some idea of the sort of lies they have told you, so I can see if they relate to me also.

 

I worked out all the spend and use on the card, and OH has paid back a few thousand more than he ever used.

THIS IS THE BIT I REALLY NEED SOME HELP ON HOW TO WORK OUT THE SPEND... IM PRESUMING THE DEBT WAS AT 0% UNLESS PROVEN OTHERWISE BY THE CCA? and therefore any interest paid would be overpayments? how on earth without statements would this be worked out?

 

I really hope you or other caggers can advise me on this as Im willing to push for a final result as are you, difference is with me my case has only been ongoing since Nov 08 a total of 3 months, is this a little early? i have however had sar back from one creditor and not had anything back from barclaycard. heres hoping.

[camdentown]

hi

 

just joined

 

what is a cca request?

 

is there a template for this.

 

thanks

 

jason

[moneydragon]

Hiya Rory

 

Just thought I would let you know I sent your letter on page 2 to Nat West and unfortunately it didn't work for me. You can see their reply on my thread - nat west-Intrum Justia-Fredrickson - Please Help thread 27.

 

md

[lexis200]

Hi Muffintop

 

Sorry I haven't posted back sooner. I read your post, then clicked off meaning to answer later and promptly forgot:rolleyes:

Lexis, thankyou for takin time to clear up my questions.

Just need a little more clarification if you would be so kind.

 

 

as they have categorically stated that the blatant application they have sent OH is a fully executed and valid

does this mean that if my cc provider has responded to my cca request by sending application forms and current t and c's they havent complied either and send fully executed valid agreement and I should now be sending cpr request.. my case only been ongoing since nove 08

In order to fully comply they need to send the historic terms relating to when the account opened, not just the current ones. This is covered under section 78 here ...shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it,... Clearly current terms can not be referenced by an older document.

 

Sending an application can comply with that aspect as long as it is commensurate with what you would have signed in both form and content. They can send you a blank application from around the time of the account opening, and as long as it has the prescribed terms etc on it then it is compliant; however this is not enforceable.

 

By the same reasoning, if they insist the (in OH's case) illegible application with no prescribed terms complies with the CCA, then it must follow that they consider this the executed agreement. In this case they have not complied (it is most definitely not a copy of an executed agreement). This is not an argument that you are likely to win though, as they will never answer this directly.

 

7 months they have not taken OH to court, but BlairOS did send a NIP.

What is an NIP? presume OH is otherhalf?

Sorry, Notice of Intended Prosecution, and yes, Other Half:)

 

they have lied on more than one occasion in their letters, and to have them shown in court would not do them any favours.

would you mind even if via pm giving me some idea of the sort of lies they have told you, so I can see if they relate to me also.

It's pretty standard stuff really, but I'll have a dig through and see what I can pick out for you.

 

I worked out all the spend and use on the card, and OH has paid back a few thousand more than he ever used.

THIS IS THE BIT I REALLY NEED SOME HELP ON HOW TO WORK OUT THE SPEND... IM PRESUMING THE DEBT WAS AT 0% UNLESS PROVEN OTHERWISE BY THE CCA? and therefore any interest paid would be overpayments? how on earth without statements would this be worked out?

Right, well you do need statements to work this out, otherwise you have nothing to go on. For a couple of OH's I've had to just use the brought-forward balance they've given which obviously skews the results somewhat, but it gives an idea at least. If you haven't already, an SAR is the way to go for getting as much statment-wise as you can.

 

It's not hard to do though, you just need to input spend, payments, interest paid, charges and fees into a spreadsheet. Then add together everything but the payments and minus this from what you've paid. This gives you the balance left, and you can see now if you've paid back more than you've spent, or, if you still have a balance, how much of it is interest/charges.

 

I think I've attached the spreadsheet I use to give you an idea...actual spend.xls

 

I really hope you or other caggers can advise me on this as Im willing to push for a final result as are you, difference is with me my case has only been ongoing since Nov 08 a total of 3 months, is this a little early? i have however had sar back from one creditor and not had anything back from barclaycard. heres hoping.

Well I don't think it can do any harm to try and get them to do something one way or another regardless of the elapsed time.

[Muffintop]

Thankyou Lexus, a lot to think on...

Posted up an alledged internet app from Tesco RBS,, it looks very realistic to me I wonder if someone else can take a butchers to see if it looks legit.

 

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo137/skeggs885/TESCO.jpg

 

heres hoping for some advice.. know its past 2004 when the electronic communications act thingy came to an end

[Pumpkinhead]

Just subscribing to this most informative thread. I have just sent Rory's letter off to NatWest and will wait to see if I get a result like him or like Money Dragons.

[Fred_Funk]

Rory

Hi! Sorry to bother you but I’ve been reading around various threads and, it seems, you’re the leading authority on the predicament I find myself in.

It’s like this…

I took out a 5k loan with A&L in 1999, which I finished repaying in 2005.

I also took out PPI on this loan which must have amounted to somewhere in the region of 2k and I now believe was mis-sold.

That being the case, I sent A&L a CCA request but, predictably, they replied that they’ve no longer got a copy of the agreement.

Now, it’s my understanding that under money laundering regulations they are obliged to retain a copy of the agreement for six years after the loan was settled.

The question is, what should I do next? And, assuming A&L maintain they are unable to come up with a copy of the agreement, how do I go about calculating the mis-sold PPI?

Thanks in anticipation

Fred_Funk

[Alphageek]

hi Fred, if you read the whole of this thread you'll see them saying they no longer have the agreement is poppycock!

 

It goes against several regulatory bodies rules, HMRC, Inland Revenue and Money Laundering as you say.

 

Have you sent a SAR?

[rory32]

That being the case, I sent A&L a CCA request but, predictably, they replied that they’ve no longer got a copy of the agreement.

As the loan had been paid off they don't actually have to supply a copy of the agreement under a CCA request.

 

As Alphageek states, you really need to send a SAR in your circumstances.

[Fred_Funk]

As the loan had been paid off they don't actually have to supply a copy of the agreement under a CCA request.

 

As Alphageek states, you really need to send a SAR in your circumstances.

 

I didn't realise that.

 

No matter. I rang 'em today and pointed out that their assertion that they no longer held any information relating to this account was flying in the face of the Money Laundering Regulations of 2003/2007.

 

Regardless of whether they are or aren't obliged to provide a copy of the agreement under a CCA request, the fact remains that they should still have it.

 

Anyway, they eventually conceded that this was the case and when I asked them whether they would like me to forward recordings of our discussion - in which they categorically denied any such obligation - to the Information Commissioner, FSA, etc, etc, they reluctantly changed their tune and said they'd endeavour to locate the agreement as a matter of urgency. I said they could have 24 hours.

 

If they come back and say that I need to make a SAR then I'm happy to do so but given all I need is a copy of the loan agreement and, moreover, I'm very impatient, I'll wait for them to tell me that.

 

What do you guys reckon? Does that seem a reasonable course of action?

 

Thanks in anticipation

Fred_Funk

[Goldlady]

Sounds marvellous - I do hope they comply.

 

They must be sick to death of us consumers - after all we were only their bread and butter, or was that caviare and champers:eek:

[mejules7]

great thread.....subbin for future ref

[Dipply75]

oh, definetely subbing, well done Rory

[citizenB]

Hiya Rory

 

Just thought I would let you know I sent your letter on page 2 to Nat West and unfortunately it didn't work for me. You can see their reply on my thread - nat west-Intrum Justia-Fredrickson - Please Help thread 27.

 

md

 

moneydragon's thread and post 27 are in the following link.

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1979801.html

[angry cat]

Hi Rory!

 

Just thought that I would let you know that, I sent a similar letter to yours as shown on post 32 to RBS some 6 weeks ago.

 

Eventuallly, I received a response, which was the same letter as had been previously sent to me;

 

Your agreement has been misfiled and despite searching they cannot find it;

Notwithstanding the agreement remains valid;

we expect you to continue to meet your obligations under the agreement;

Section 79(6) 'Unenforceable' only prevents us from pursuing recovery of the debt through the courts."

 

So, they are doing a heads down!

 

Next step, should I report them to HMRC?

I certainly feel like doing such.

 

AC

[Al1971]

Hi Rory and everyone was wondering if someone could check out this reply from RBS (visa card) and advise what my next step is.

 

Was thinking about trying Rory's letter. I know the cannot enforce the debt in court but I would imagine they will keep pestering me.

 

My aim is to get as good as Full and Final settlement as possible and thereby have the default "satisfied" Balance is £10k and I'm on reduced payments of £50 per month direct to RBS.

 

Can someone also clear up whether they can only default once on the account? The default was registered April 08?

 

Reply below:

[lexis200]

As far as I can see, Miss Bennet is saying that although they have nothing to prove you owe the debt, despite searching for it, they'd still like you to pay. Pretty please.

 

I would think rory's letter would be a good start - just make sure you add in that you have it in writing from them that they no longer hold the agreement.

 

Lexis:)