jimvic v HSBC

[jimvic]

Hello all. 1st post so be gentle please.

 

We have gone through the process using this fab site as our guide.

 

We sent the first letter and received the standard response.

 

Then we sent the 2nd letter (LBA) giving 14 days. We actually ended up giving 30 days becuse of a holiday, but received no response.

 

So we submitted our claim online with HMCS. our claim is for £4769.50 plus interest of £1170.30. we used the spreadsheets on here to calculate this.

 

Our claim was filed and today we have received 'Notice that Acknowledgement of Service has been filed' indicating that DG solicitors intend to 'defend all of this claim'.

 

So obviously just like everyone else we now start panicking.

 

I'm worried that we may be trying to reclaim the wrong things in some cases.

 

We are fully set up for online banking and every statement for the last 6 years is visible to us, so rather than writing to HSBC and asking for statements in the first place, we used the online statements.

 

Will i actually need to send physical copies of the statements further down the line? as i'm not sure they can be printed off?

 

Do i need to be doing/preparing anything now? We haven't received anything to fill in from the court or any direct correspondence from HSBC or its solicitor.

 

Scary isn't it?

 

jim

[nettyg]

unless it goes as far as you having to submit a court bundle, you won't need hard copies of your statements. BUT, if you do need copies, yes you can print them from online banking. don't worry about anything - you've got everything covered so far.

good luck:)

[lateralus]

nets, did you see us talking about you - on st24 i think it was.

[jimvic]

Hi All,

 

Received a letter today from HSBC offering £3500, the reason it is short is because we apparently are trying to claim further back than 6 years.

Our claim goes back to March 2001, our first letter was sent March 07, the amount for those months is only £42 so that doesn't make sene as our claim totalled £4769.50 but with interest of £1170.30, the claim is now substantially higher.

 

Would you argue the point & try for the whole lot or bite the bullet & say it's £3500 we're up.

 

Your advice would be greatly appreciated.

[lateralus]

well, you've already submitted your claim - so the question for you is - 3500 now or wait (and i'm trying to be very honest here) about 3 months and get the lot. it really is as simple as that. you can take that offer (i could probably give you a letter that would get your an extra 120 for the court filing) or wait it out - nearly everyone who does - gets the lot (maybe not that 42 but the interest is sizeable). it really is as simple as 3500 now or 4700 later.

[jimvic]

Hi all. we rejected the offer of £3500. the only reason they'd given was saying they didn't have to go back beyond 6 years. we didn't go back beyond 6 years, it just took them 2 months to reply!! and the 2 months that were by then beyond 6 years were only £42.

 

DG had until 20 june to file defence and i have checked online today and they have filed this afternoon.

 

If i'm correct, the case will now bw transfered to a court local to me?

 

we may/may not have to complete an 'allocation questionaire'. what is an AQ? what does it do?

 

once i receive notice in writing from the court telling me where it is switched to, what next?

 

how long before a court date is set?

 

are DG still settling before getting to court?

 

(when) should i send a nudge letter to DG?

 

what goes in the court bundle?

 

as to T&C's the account was originally my wifes from before we even met

opened prob in 1993ish. it was made a joint acc in early 1996. we don't have copies from either date.

 

now we have gone this far should we be unwilling to settle for anything less than the full amount + interest + costs? concerned that the interest pushes our claim over £5k. when we rejected £3500 we politely told HSBC we'd happily stop proceedings if they agreed to settle our orig £4700 claim in full. can i assume that we will not get any further correspondence direct from hsbc?

 

all help and support gladly received.

[lateralus]

the aq is just a tool for the court to decide which track to send the claim to - small claims, fast track, etc. it isn't really much - just had to be done - not as you say - in most cases it hasn't to be done - but still in some - just depends on your local court. and some courts are still requiring the fee to be paid (because they do still allocate it - just don't require the paperwork) so, it is worth waiting a couple of weeks and then ringing your local court and asking if the aq fee is payable. if it is - then pay it (they don't always tell you - so that's why we say to ask) and if you pay it - put it on your claim.

probably you'll get something fairly quick saying it is being transferred to ..... court and a copy of their defence - then you wait for the local court to tell you what they want - directions for a hearing or paperwork or whatever.

dg seems to be settling lately only when a court date is coming up or paperwork they don't want to file (the banks costs).

 

you can go ahead and send your first nudge to dg saying i see that you have defended this case - blah, blah, just follow the nudge ideas.

 

have you seen my new thread - it's at the bottom of my signature.

 

there is a copy of the 96 t & c's floating around on the site - you can track them down when you are doing the bundle.

 

yes, you are dealing with dg now - not hsbc - and you can expect a full offer at some point (with maybe a couple of charges questioned for some reason).

 

i have to go but i'll be back with another idea for you a little later.

[lateralus]

ok, if you aren't frightened of the court bundle - and why should you be - you've got all the help you need right here to get it done; then consider this - when we used to all send aq's we had a new strategy asking the court to consider a draft order for direction. basically it is asking the judge to require certain paperwork (the bundle) from both sides right away - and if he agrees and makes it a direction - then you will have 14 days from his letter to submit your bundle - dg will have 14 days to submit theirs and they won't. they will offer. so, if the judge approves it and makes it a direction - you can look for an offer within probably 3 weeks of the draft order instead of some people now waiting for august court dates.

 

so, if that looks like something you could do - then here's the draft order and a cover letter to send to your local court once you've received the paperwork transferring you to your local court.

 

 

here's the letter and the draft order:

 

 

 

The Court Manager

****** County Court

Court Address

Court P/code

 

[date]

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

 

 

You -v- Bank Plc

Claim Number: *******

 

 

It is noted that in my case referenced above that the Allocation Questionnaire has been dispensed with. I am aware that this is likely due to the large volume of claims that consumers are bring against the high street banks. I am also aware that to date the banks have failed to defend a case in the courts and that they often use the court process to extend and delay the period of time within which they deal with these matters satisfactorily.

 

In light of this the Claimant respectfully suggests that special directions may be made as per the enclosed draft order.

 

 

The Claimant believes the proposed directions will further the Overriding Objectives in that they identify the most fundamental issues in dispute (as detailed below), and allow them to be assessed in advance of any hearing so that this claim may proceed justly and expeditiously.

 

 

 

- The crux upon which this claim rests is the true loss suffered by the Defendant as a result of the contractual breach from which its charges arise. If the Defendant cannot substantiate the cost of each charge as proportionate to its loss incurred, it has charged contractual penalties contrary to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 and common law principles established since the early 1900's.

 

 

 

- In the event that the Defendant's charges were accepted as being a fee for a service (which is refuted), examination of its true costs is required to determine whether the price is reasonable as required by the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982.

 

 

 

The Claimant believes that if the Defendant has the serious intention of defending this claim at trial as is indicated by its defence, that it is incumbent on it to disclose such information. Further, the proposed directions are already routinely ordered in claims of this nature in the Mercantile Court in London, as well as in small claims track cases in Leicester, Derby, Chesterfield, Northampton and Mansfield County Courts.

 

 

 

As the law relating to contractual penalties is long established, the Claimant believes the outstanding issues to be of fact. Accordingly, the Claimant respectfully requests that this claim be allocated to the small claims track, and estimates that the hearing of the claim should last no longer than one hour.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

 

 

[name]

 

 

 

 

enc: Draft Order

 

 

 

 

 

THEN ON A SEPARATE PIECE OF PAPER - THIS:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Draft Order for Directions

 

 

 

 

 

1. The Claimant shall within 14 days of service of this order send to the Defendant and to the Court:

• a) A schedule setting out each charge repayment of which is sought, showing the date, amount, and reason given (if any) for that charge being made;

• b) Copies of any statement or other document relied upon as showing that each and every charge has been made;

• c) A statement of evidence of all matters relied upon as tending to show that the charges are irrecoverable as penalties or otherwise;

• d) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon.

If the Claimant fails to comply with this order, the claim will be struck out without further order.

 

 

 

2. The Defendant shall within 14 days thereafter file and serve a response to the Claimant's schedule, stating in respect of each item claimed;

• a) Pursuant to what contractual provision such charge was made, producing a copy of the contractual document relied upon;

• b) Whether such charge is accepted to be a penalty, and if not why not;

• c) If such charge is alleged to be a pre-estimate of the Defendant's loss incurred by the Claimant's actions (whether or not such action is treated as a breach of contract between the parties), all facts and matters intended to be relied upon as showing that such was a proper estimate of such loss, and all evidence to be adduced at trial as to what the true cost of dealing with the matter was;

• d) If such charge is not alleged to be a pre-estimate of the Defendant's loss incurred by the Claimant's actions then facts and matters intended to be relied upon showing the basis upon which the charge was calculated and all evidence to be adduced at trial as to show that the charge was fair and reasonable.

• e) Any witness statements.

• f) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon.

If the Defendant fails to comply with this order, the Defence will be struck out without further order.

[jimvic]

Hi guys, bit of advice please.

 

Our online claim status changed to show a defence was entered by DG on friday 15th June.

 

We've received NOTHING in the post from the courts all week.

 

Is this normal? Do i need to chase Northampton (court)?

 

Want to find out where our case is going and if an AQ is needed. Want to be able to write to DG asap giving them our terms to withdraw (we told HSBC we would 'settle' for all of our orig claim B4 interest was added. This was 10 days B4 DG entered a defence. HSBC have written to us this week saying they hadn't received a response to their offer of £3.5k?!?!).

 

just being impatient i suppose....

[jeneil]

It usually takes at least a week for the documentation to come from MCOL, it will probably arrive middle of next week, this is completely normal. If it hasn't come by the end of the week you could chase them up:)

[pinkduchess]

my paperwork took a couple of weeks. theyve probably got so many to send out now its taking a little longer.

[jimvic]

morning everyone.

 

i've finally had some correspondence in the post today. it shows that DG have filed defence. i wonder, is their 'defence' standard? it is in 5 parts. i'm not going to copy it word for word. the general gist is..

 

1.acc governed by t&c

2.defendant entitled to charge for services

3. deny that charges amount to penalties

4. charges reasonable and fully disclosed in t&c's and form contractually agreed price

5.each and every allegation denied

 

The notice of transfer shows that the case has been transfered to Sheffield. Don't know how many of you are aware, but Sheff court was

flooded last monday and had no power until thursday. they are in a right state - literally swamped. bet they could do without this lot!

 

It also shows that the AQ is not required. 'it is ordered that:- the filing of an allocation questionnaire be dispensed with in this case unless the District Judge at the court of transfer orders otherwise'.

 

This order was 'drawn on 23 June 2007'.

 

It says that any party can apply for set aside, variance, or stay under rule 3.3(5) within 14 days of service of this order.

 

Is the date of service of the order deemed to be 23 june 2007? if so, that

only leaves 7 days.

 

What do you reckon my next move should be? A letter to DG suggesting this all be settled without wasting the courts time(with reference to the sheffield floods causing chaos with the courts time?!), or the route Lateralus suggested earlier - apply to the court for a draft order?

 

thanks for all your help. there are a few on here that really should be doing this professionally. I look forward to hopefully being in a position to donate to the site soon!!

 

jim

[lateralus]

well i would say this - but i'd send the draft order

 

 

also, one little item - although the aq is dispensed with - some courts still charge the allocation fee - without even telling you - so best to ring the local court and ask if the fee is payable or not - then you know for sure.

[jimvic]

Lateralus - you da man(or woman?) so i'm going to follow your advice. before i fire off the request to the court it's prob best if i have the bundle ready? what do i need to put in it? bear in mind we used our online statements to id charges, i assume i'll need hard copies? does nayone know if this is easy to do from the hsbc online banking site? also t&c's. the account was originally vicki's opened circa 1993. it was changed to a joint acc circa 1996. I'm sure that there are some T&c's on here? anyone better at this than me that can post a link?

 

jim

[lateralus]

WHAT............

I AM WOMAN - HEAR ME ROAR, IN NUMBERS TOO BIG TO IGNORE....

 

ALL THE PRETTY PINK AND YOU HAD TO ASK

 

I DA WOMAN!!!!

 

AND HAVE YOU NOT SEEN MY NEW THREAD COURT BUNDLES FOR MEN.................

 

court bundles for dummies

 

 

 

 

 

GOOD MORNING PETE, FREAKY, CYCLAMAN (A PRETTY PINK FLOWER), ST23.5, AND ALL YOU OTHER GUYS...........

[Castlebest]

Lattie you deffinatly are the woman and I dont think anyone would deny it... now less of the roaring you will get a sore throat

 

Jimvic, Bit early for a bundle yet fill in your AQ and send the draft directions with it then wait to hear from your local court, see what your district judges plesure is

 

You can start to send nudging letters to DG though one every 10 to 14 days. see latties threads.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/71343-when-you-have-filed.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/78873-new-after-28-days.html

 

pete

[jimvic]

pete

 

thanks. the AQ has been dispensed with by northampton before transfering to sheffield.

 

i plan to ring sheffield on monday to find out if i need to pay the allocation fee, then send the letter lateralus posted above asking the court to consider a draft order for direction.

 

if i've got it right, if the judge agrees to our request, we will then have 14 days to prepare and send the court bundle, and in all likelihood DG will either offer to settle in those 14 days or will do nothing in those 14 days meaning we win by default?

 

are we at the stage now where we should not be prepared to accept less than our full claim PLUS INTEREST? we have given HSBC lots of opportunity to settle at our original claim amount WITHOUT the interest and they've failed to respond (i get the impression that they don't know their arses from their elbows!).

 

jim

[lateralus]

keep it at the full amount - you'll get it.

[freakyleaky]

How come you can say arses on here but just you try and type the word s****horpe and see what happens!

 

See what I mean? LOL:D

[pinkduchess]

freaky you just cant stop typing it can you!!!

[jimvic]

Quick update - Sheffield CC decided an AQ WAS neccessary and it was duly completed and sent special delivery before the date advised. attatched was a copy of the request we'd already made for Order of Directions.

 

We've heard nothing from the court (it would've been rec'd by them 2 weeks ago).

 

This morning we have had a letter from DG (our first corres from them) saying they are going to ask for a stay because of the OFT blah blah.

 

Any suggestions on our next move?

 

Are the OFT going to win?

 

cheers all.

[freakyleaky]

Your next move is to prepare your application for removal of stay. Keep checking with the court and as soon as you get confirmation that a stay has been granted you must send the removal application to the court.

 

The outcome of the test case is still a mystery but I am sure that eventually a "fair" and lawful amount will be set for charges. Once this figure has been established, anything over and above will have to be paid back.