Amends / Offers and Judges, what do i do??????

[bank_charge_monkey]

Hi all, I have started my claim with Natwest online with MoneyClaim 14/5/07. Unfortunatley I had an ommision on my POC. I missed out an account number.

I started an amendment to POC and sent the relevant forms and fee off.

I did get the forms back with a couple of errors to correct (underlining of red pen and stating that I wish to re-serve the claim)These have since been sent back and accepted.

 

I have received a letter from the court stating that my case has been "reffered to a District Judge for directions. It can take approximately 3-4 weeks to receive a response. When the file is returned from the District Judge we will contact you with the outcome."

 

I have also received a letter today from Natwest stating that "thank you for your recent correspondence" blah de blah we are sorry you have concerns regarding the charges. They have offered me a settlement figure of which I find unacceptable. They have also stated that failure to reply within 8 weeks deems the complaint closed.

 

My query is that I am now between a rock and a hard place, I can't enter a straight judgement at the point of 28 days as I need my claim to be re-served but I really don't want to have to wait 3-4 weeks until a judge makes the decision to amend or re-serve the claim so I can start the court process again.

 

Do I contact the bank again to turn down their offer??

 

Could someone shed some light on this for me please.

 

Cheers

Rich

[fendyweather]

The choice is yours, if you want to accept their offer, then write to them and do so, but leave the court claim in place, just in case the money is not forthcoming..................

 

But if you dont want to accept their offer, then reject it. Heres a rejection letter you can use.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/25716-rejecting-offers.html

 

But theres nothing at all you can do to rush the judge for court case. Nothing................... you just have to sit back and wait. Nobody said this process was a quick one and patience is just something we all have to learn along the way. Its your choice, but I would continue on, and wait for court date, you can always ring Cobblers once you have this and negotiate from there.................... but at the end of the day, its truly up to you which you prefer to do.

 

All the best, whatever you decide. Fendy xxxxx

[steven4064]

Rich

 

It seems to me that you have set wheels in motion to revise the claim and presumably you want to see that through. If that is the case, then you should reject the offer or accept it as part settlement only. That will put that particular ball back in Nat West's court while the amended claim gets served.

 

After that it will be like going back to the begininng of the claim.

 

Steven

 

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[bank_charge_monkey]

Thanks all after looking in more detail on this letter, the reference is for only one of my accounts I am claiming for.

 

The total offered as settlement is 532.00 this is the amount of the charges relevant to that account minus the interest I stated at 195.00 (total amount 726.93) should I persist with court to get the full amount back or do I have to settle with just the charge amount refund??

Also if I am claiming for 2 accounts should I wait for both settlements to come through before replying?

 

Sorry if I sound stupid I just want to get this all organised as much as poss.

 

Cheers & thanks for everyones help.

 

Rich

[hedgey06]

Hi Rich, if it's the s.69 8% interest that they've not offered - accept the charges as only the courts can award this. If it's the overdraft interest - I think this has to be your call really. Personally, I'd accept the charges - but plenty of peeps on here would disagree!!! (Don't all shout at me at once!!!)

 

Did you claim for both accounts at the same time? If you didn't, I'd say they're treating this as two seperate claims. If you did claim for both at the same time - I think it's worth contacting them and asking on the status of the other claim. Could well be worth holding on and going for the lot!!!! xxxx

[steven4064]

Hi Rich

 

What youare saying is that they have offered you the charges but not the interest - is that right? That's what they do to everyoner who claims interest. If you want it back (and it is your money) then you can get it back but you will have to fight for it. It's not as bad as it sounds because you will win. But, it's your choice.

 

Either way, we are here to help.

 

Steven

 

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[bank_charge_monkey]

Thanks all, I got the second letter for the other account this morning offering me the charges for the second account back.

 

However as Steven and Hedgey have said the interest that the money would've accrued is still due to me, so I think on this account I will continue.

 

I will continue with my letter of rejection (I will write one letter to cover both accounts as I have not filed 2 seperate claims).

 

I guess from then I will just have to wait, the courts have already said my amended claim has gone to a district judge for direction.

PS does anyone know if this means a judgement will be made by the judge there and then or he will just accept the amendment and re-serve?

 

Thanks all

Rich

[steven4064]

I guess from then I will just have to wait, the courts have already said my amended claim has gone to a district judge for direction.

PS does anyone know if this means a judgement will be made by the judge there and then or he will just accept the amendment and re-serve?

 

Rich

 

It just means the court staff can't decide what happens next so a DJ looks at it. I was told that one of our cases had gone to the DJ for directions and 2 days later we got the AQ. I'm certain that he won'tactually make ajudgement at this point.

 

Steven

 

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[bank_charge_monkey]

Thanks all, I am within two minds as to how to continue with this - do I carry on with the claim as I have paid the court fees and started the process of, with the view to get charges, interest and fees back or just accept the banks offer - I am concerned by future judgements that are made as judges are getting together.

 

Obviously there has to be a firm argument as they have offered the money (with no Liability but if you were sure of your actions you wouldn't give someone back their money).

 

I am quite sure that a lot of people have gone through this situation on here... should I accept it should I carry on...? what if I lose!

 

I guess I am after some light relief on the subject to make me stand up for the fact that these banks should not get away with these preposterous charges.

 

Cheers again all, I look forward to your support.

 

Rich

[fendyweather]

Im sorry monkey, but nobody can answer this one for you. It has to be YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE. A lot would say, continue onward and upward, I would............... but were all different. Many would say accept and have done with it. Its a hugely personal choice. Nobody can advise one way or another. If youre looking for a quick end to it, then the only answer is ACCEPT. Because to continue can go on for months, several, so you have to be prepared. It depends if youre in it for the long haul or you want out quickly. It has to be your choice my friend. Nobody can condemn you either way. We all understand the predicament you are in, but only you know deep down what it is you want to do. Trust your inner self, and make the decision. Either way, you have the utmost support on here to see you through to the end. BUT YOU HAVE TO DECIDE FOR YOURSELF MY FRIEND.

 

My own personal opinion, is carry on and get the lot.................. but thats just me. I kinda like a bit of a verbal fisticuffs,,,,,,,,,, but not everybody does. Each to their own.

 

Best of everything my friend. Fendy xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[steven4064]

I agree with everything fendy jsut said - particularly the bit about verbal fisticuffs. The 'no liability' bit is irrelevant - they always say that. And experience says they always give in in the end. But that's the key phrase "in the end".

 

Whatever wayyou go, we are right behind you

 

Steven

 

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[bank_charge_monkey]

Yep cheers guys - Inner self screaming at me to send the rejection letter, infact it's my inner self that's nearly written it all...

 

It will be going off shortly! Natwest Here I come. I shall keep you all updated.

 

Thanks again for your support.

 

Rich

[bank_charge_monkey]

Hi all, really need your help on this one. I have just received a reply from Cobbetts today (31/05/07).

 

Its Defence and Request for further information (which I have provided in my previous letters to both the bank and Cobblers)

 

I have a problem though in that the amended claim has gone to a district judge before being re-served and Cobblers want the reply and documents back before 13/06/07. What do I do now? it does say that if you are unable to reply by this date please contact Cobblers...

 

Please let me know if you need to know the actual documents... I will start typing it up meanwhile.

 

Please let me know how I can also use the same thread throughout my claim so that a) it appears at the 1st page b) I don't keep starting new threads & c) all of my claim queries are kept together.

 

Cheers for all your help guys.

 

Rich

[steven4064]

Cobblers want the reply and documents back before 13/06/07.

 

So they might. You don't have to send them ANYTHING unless the court tells you to. However, as you claimed via MCOL it is just possible they haven't got a copy of your schedule so send them one of those with a short covering letter.

 

If you are claiming against different banks it is probabaly worth starting new threads in the appropriate forums (fora?) so that you can have the advantage of the experience there.

 

You can organise your threads though. UNder 'quick links' above you will find 'subscribed threads'. You should see your threads (and any others you've posted to or subscribed to). You can put them in folders, all sorts, to keep track of them.

 

Steven

[bank_charge_monkey]

Cheers Steven,

although I have already sent a schedule of charges out to Cobbetts and to Natwest.

 

Natwest with the first and second letter so they got it twice, and once after recieving confirmation that Cobbetts were defending to the Solicitor.

 

So each party had received a copy of the schedule of charges for both accounts.

 

But what is pretty scary is the contents of the defence.

 

I will post it as soon as I have finished typing it up but I could be a while.

 

Thanks again

 

Rich

[steven4064]

I will post it as soon as I have finished typing it up but I could be a while.

 

I bet its the same as all the others

 

Steven

 

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[steven4064]

As in

 

1. the defence is filed and served without prejuduce blah blah do not disclsoe reasonable grounds blah blah will apply to strike out the claim and/or for summary judgement .....

 

2. On allocation the defendant invites the court to direct that there be a case management confernce blah blah properly particularise the claim

 

3. No asmissions blah blah

 

4. in relatin to the allegation blah blah folowed by stuff about the UCTA 1977

 

5. Load of tosh about SGSA 1982

 

6. The Claimant's claim for costs not being sufficiently particularised blah blah

 

7 save as herinbefore (now there's a good word to casually slip into a conversation!) blah blah

 

Statement of truth

 

Does that look familiar?

 

Steven

[bank_charge_monkey]

Yeah nearly there...

although they have slipped in some other lovelies about not having given them the schedule / Proving stuff about SGSA / Striking out claim and various other bits:confused:

 

Pretty much though banged the nail on the head. I guess they have this ready for each case!!

 

R

[bank_charge_monkey]

Hi all, as promised here is the defence entered, pretty standard I guess but a few extra tit bits thrown in for good measure me thinks..

 

Let me know what you all think - I need as much help as poss with this..

 

Defence:

1.This defence is filed and served without prejudice to the defendant's case that the particulars of claim do not disclose reasonable grounds for bringing a claim against the defendant to recover the bank charges (and interest thereon) referred to in the particulars of claim or any sum(s). In the event that the claim is not properly particularised then the defendant will apply to strike out the claim and/or for summary judgement in respect of the same.

2. Without prejudice to the foregoing paragraph, if and to the extent that the claimant proves the allegation that the defendant debited charges to the claimants bank account, insofar as such charges were debited on a date or dates more than six years prior to the issue of this claim, any remedy in respect of the same, whether damages, restitution or otherwise, is barred by the operation of the limitation act 1980 and/or the doctrine of laches and the defendant will apply to strike out this aspect of the claim and/or for summary judgment.

3. No admissions are made as to what charges have been debited to the claimants bank account.

4. The Claimant refers under paragraph 3 of the particulars of claim to having provided the defendant with a copy of the list of charges. The defendant has not yet received a copy of this list. Therefore the claimant is therefore put to strict proof of each and every charge the subject of the claim and must identify in respect of each charge (a) the date the same was debited, (b)the amount the same and © the decription applied to the charge.

**This I have sent to both Cobblers and to Nasty West (twice), natwest I had sign for them, also they have responded to my letter with an offer so they must've received my list?**

5. In relation to the allegation that the contractual provisions pursuant to which the charges have been applied are unenforceable by virtue of the unfair Contract Terms act 1977 ("UCTA 1977") and/or the Unfair Terms in consumer contracts regulations 1999 ("the regulations") and/or the common law, the claimant is required to identify:

5.1(a) the section(s) of "the unfair contract terms act 1977"; (b) the regulations of "the unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations 1999"; and © the principles of common law relied upon by the claimant in alleging that thee contractual provision(s) referred to are unenforceable; and

5.2 the contractual provision(s) that the claimant allege are invalid by reference to UCTA 1977 and/or the regulations until such time as these sections/regulations/provisions are identified the defendant cannot (save as appears below) please to the allegation referred to in paragraph 5 above. The defendant therefore reserves its right to plead further to the allegation once (and if) the claimant identifies the relevant contractual information.

6. In relation to the case of the claimant that the charges are unreasonable within the meaning of section 15 of the Supply of goods & Services Act 1982 ("SGSA") the defendant pleads as follows:

6.1 The claimant is required to plead and prove the necessary factors (referred to in section 15 SGSA) concerning the contract between the claimant and the defendant which mean that pursuant to SGSA section 15 there is an implied term that the claimant pay a reasonable charge for the service under the contract.

6.2 Further, the claimant is required to plead and prove (a) that the bank charges which have been debited are unreasonable; (b) all facts and matters relied upon by the claimant in support of this case and © what charges would have been reasonable.

6.3 In the circumstances no grounds are disclosed for a claim that the defendant has acted in breach of SGSA section 15.

6.4 In the circumstances (save as appears below) the defendant is unable to plead to this allegation beyond denying that it has acted in breach of SGSA section 15 as alleged or at all. The defendant reserves its right to plead further to this allegation once (and if) the defects in the pleaded case referred to in paragraphs 6.1-6.3 above are addressed.

6.5 It is the case of the defendant that the contract between the claimant and the defendant does not fall within SGSA Section 15 because (a) the consideration for the service would be determined by the contract between the claimant and the defendant and (b) was not left to be determined in a manner agreed by the contract or determined by the course of dealings between the claimant and the defendant.

7 The claimants claim for costs not being sufficiently particularised, the defendant is unable to plead and reserves the right to plead upon further particulars.

8. To assist the claimant with the proper particularisation of the claim(s), the defendant serves with this defence a request made pursuant to CPR Part 18. ***WHAT?*** If the claimant fails to provide the particulars requested in the time stipulated and/or the defects with the claim(s) (referred to in paragraph 1 above) remain then the defendant will apply to the court for (among other things) an order striking out the claim.

9. Pending the proper particularisation of the claim(s) the defendant is unable to please to the claimants claim(s) beyond at this stage denying that the defendant is liable to the claimant as alleged in the claim or at all. The defendant reserves its right to amend this defence to plead further to claimant's claim(s) once or if the claimant properly particularises the same.

10. Save as hereinbefore appears the defendant joins issue with the claimant on the claim(s) and denies it is liable to the claim as alleged or at all.

 

As I'm sure many others that have received something like this are slightly bricking it by this - but it doesn't phase me, what worries me is my amendment to my claim hasn't gone through yet so they are defending the original wrong claim (only by me missing out my second acc number)

 

Cheers all Rich

[steven4064]

Thanks Rich

 

Sooooo..

 

Your paragraph 1 is identical to my paragraph 1

Your paragraph 3 is identical to my paragraph 3

Your paragraph 5 is identical to my paragraph 4

Your paragraph 6 is identical to my paragraph 5

Your paragraph 7 is identical to my paragraph 6

Your paragraph 10 is identical to my paragraph 7

 

Your paragraph 2 is differrent to mine and you have extra paragraphs 4, 8 and 9

 

Anyway it disproves one of my theories - it looks like they might actually read our particulars of claim even if it's only to notice specific keywords to trigger the inclusion or not of standard paragraphs.

 

Steven

 

[steven4064]

 

As I'm sure many others that have received something like this are slightly bricking it by this - but it doesn't phase me, what worries me is my amendment to my claim hasn't gone through yet so they are defending the original wrong claim (only by me missing out my second acc number)

 

And when they receive it they will have to submit another defence (presumablyexactly like this one). That means you will have two, which is just plain greedy;)

 

Steven

 

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[bank_charge_monkey]

Ok just finished the Request for Further info...

here it is.

 

again comments/action please.

 

Request for further information and clarification.

NOTE - IMPORTANT

1 This request is served pursuant to CPR Part 18 alternatively with regard to CPR Rule 27.2(3).

2 The reason(s) why this request has been served are set out in the defence which has been served by the defendant.

3 You are asked to provide a response to this request in accordance with CPR Part 18 by 13 June 2007.

4 If you are unable to provide a response by this date then you are asked to contact the defendants solicitors promptly and tell them when you will be able to provide a response.

5 In the event that you do not provide an adequate response to this letter by this date (or such other date as may be agreed with the defendant's solicitors) then the defendant can apply to the court for an order requiring you to provide the information requested or (in view of the defiencies in the way that the claim is pleaded) an order striking out the claim(s).

The Request

1 In your claim you state "Since 0/03/01 to defendant debited charges and interest in respect of purported breaches of contract"

**my actual claim says "Since 20/03/01 the defendant debited charges and interest in respect of purported breaches of contract"**

2 Please provide the following particulars in support of your claim:

2.1 In relation to each charge please identify (a) the date when the charge was charged; (b) the amount of the same; and © the reason(s) given for the charging of the same.

**This was on the schedule of charges the bank have signed for... twice! and also the solicitors have received a copy**

2.2 In relation to each charge, please clarify the following: (a) is it the case of the claimant the same should not have been charged? (b) if yes; please explain why the claimant contends that the same should not have been charged? © if no; is it the case of the claimant that the same should not have been charged in this amount? (d) If yes ;please explain why the claimant contends that the same should not have been charged in this amount and identify the sum the claimant contends should have been charged. **Surely this is not for me to barter with the bank** (e) if no; please state the claimant's case.

3 In your claim you state that the charges are "unenforceable under the unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations 1999, the unfair terms act 1977 and the common law" and "they must be reasonable under s15 of the supply of goods and services act 1982".

4 Please specify all of the facts relied on by the claimant in support of the contentions in paragraph 3 above, and in particular please identify (a) the section(s) of the unfair contract terms act 1977 ("UCTA 1977"); (b) the regulations of the unfair contract terms in consumer regulations 1999 ("the regulations"); and © the principles of common law relied upon by the claimant in alleging that the contractual provision(s) referred to are unenforceable.

 

That's it guys I shant take up more space - any any help you can give me on these will be greatly appreciated.

 

Rich

[steven4064]

If your claim is

 

There is a letter you can send that tells them that CPR 18 doesn't apply and that you are not going to bother replying to their questions

 

Steven

 

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[bank_charge_monkey]

**Update**

Ok so my amended claim has come through - I now need to reserve it on Natwest. Which I am going to do today 18/6.

 

I have a question though. As I have received both a letter from Natwest offering charges only refund 17/5 & 15/5 and a defence from Cobbetts 31/5, is there anything I need to do with these. Obviously I didn't want to start anything until my claim had been amended. Now it has should I ignore the offer letter and defence letters ?? I was ready to send a rejection letter to Natwest informing them that I have already proceeded with court action and also a letter to Cobbetts informing them of their bullying/stalling tactics with regards CPR18.

 

I have so many roads open i don't know which way to go.

 

Thanks in advance.

[steven4064]

You need do nothing about cobbetts defence until you heart from the court. Once you have re-servced you claim, they may submit another anyway, I guess.

 

You should probably answer the 2 letters from NW, politely accepting their offer but only as a partial settlement and leaving them in no doubt that youintend to cointinue your claim.

 

Steven

 

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