Unsolicited Reverse Bill Texts

[Gino32]

Sorry Buzzer, you are at it again,

 

You are subscribing to the bulls**t that the networks, Ofcom & Icstis put out to try to make out that all of us that have mobile phone are morons. This is how I got involved!!!!!

 

Yes I agree that some kids do subscribe to the ringtone web sites for a ring tone every week at £4.50 a time, only because the small print is tucked away so well that even the best of teenage, spotty 'geek' would not find it.

 

You will be telling us next that people actually phone the likes of Dialogue, PNC & Moby Magic on an 0871 number at 12p per minute and give their mobile number to subscribe to these services, which is what they give as evidence to an Icstis adjudication hearing. The sad part is that the bu**rs believe them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Buzzer old mate I am begining to worry about you. As 'Goodwill' asked before, are you sure you are not involved in the business? :idea:

[Darren]

but the trouble is many folk have actually inadvertently signed up, but are not aware of doing so.

 

This happened to my 12 year old son. When we asked o2 when he sent the text we realised that the phone was turned off all that week and locked in the safe as he was on a school trip and not allowed to take it. o2 said that someone else must have sent it, now that sounds logical. someone could have broke in to our house, cracked the safe, turned on my sons mobile,sent the text then locked it back in the safe and left

[OrangePrimate]

Sorry got to respond on this one, and yes i am 'in the business' mainly on the recieving end of the rants and raves!

Gino32, you are very emotive on this subject and your posts suggest that you are a sole recipient of numerous charged texts on a daily basis!

I Have worked at front line for 6 years on pay as you go helpdesk and pay monthly, and these 'unsolicited' sms come up a few times a week - note i say 'a few times a week', with millions of customers on our network alone, the problem is not as widespread as you make out.

As in all walks of life there will be the odd few who make money from others misery, but not all these texts are 'scams' as you are so fond of repeating, the majority are a genuine service of some sort that have been requsted.

I and many of my collegues would agree with Buzby, if more people had complained about them at the very beginning, they wouldnt be so wide spread now, or maybe quite so expensive.

Every single mobile user will at some point get an unsolicited marketing message - they are NOT charged for.

Despite what you claim the Networks DO NOT make a huge profit from these texts, they are charged to the sender at standard rate.

The Network DO NOT get the £1.50 you have been charged, the sender does.

EVERY network has access to the central database that when entering the 5 digit 'shortcode' of the sender, can tell you exactly who they are and their customer service details.

The Network can check if any 'request' message was sent by the mobile, giving date and time, proving the service was requested, end of story.

If nothing shows on the bill, the sender should be able to trace when/where the service was requested from. Do you realise that a so called friend can request one of these services from a PC or from an advert in a paper on their mobile, but you get charged?! The SENDER of the service can give that info, and HAVE to or give you a refund.

 

If the Senders claim it was requested via the mobile, We in CS will back customers 100% and contact these suppliers ourselves if a 'request' txt or call is not showing on the itemised bill.

 

These services are easy enough to cancel, just ring through to your

Network CS and get the info you need, its not such a big issue as you are making out, or making a big deal about, this has been around for years and was an awful lot worse until 2 years ago when all the Networks stepped in to regulate it a bit more, and made it clear to all marketers and suppliers, "behave or you dont use our Network to ply your trade.

 

you say "You will be telling us next that people actually phone the likes of Dialogue, PNC & Moby Magic on an 0871 number at 12p per minute and give their mobile number to subscribe to these services, which is what they give as evidence to an Icstis adjudication hearing. The sad part is that the bu**rs believe them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!! "

Yes they believe them because the number/date/time are detailed on an itemised phone bill!

Darren

You Say "This happened to my 12 year old son. When we asked o2 when he sent the text we realised that the phone was turned off all that week and locked in the safe as he was on a school trip and not allowed to take it. o2 said that someone else must have sent it, now that sounds logical. someone could have broke in to our house, cracked the safe, turned on my sons mobile,sent the text then locked it back in the safe and left"

 

See above, it doesnt have to be requested by the mobile itself, O2 would have been able to identify who sent it, the senders CS would have been able to say when/where from etc. If not you would have been within your rights to request a full refund from them

ok, taking cover, ready for the barage of 'trust an employee to defend the networks' nothing like it, just telling like it is!

[Gino32]

OrangePrimate

It's good to hear from all sides of spectrum, but there is not a lot that you have said that I have not heard before.

 

You are wrong in that you assume that in my case I was a lone victim receiving multiple texts on a daily basis. I can't see where you have got that idea as I make my tale of woe very clear. (Perhaps it's is a bad attempt of a 'put down' !) This is about a measly sum of £4.50, yes just three texts, but this all started with being treated as a moron by my Network and grew from there. It's a similar story from the many contacts I have made over the past few months.

 

You will see that I have said that I see the use in the telecoms Industry for reverse bill texts and continue to say that there will be the 'scroats' that will be there to make an easy buck. In this case the [problem], I am sorry if you don't like that word but that's what it was, ran from 17-19 March and Moby Magic used a customer list that they had purchased, against Icstis regulations, to dispatch the texts. I don't need to tell you that this means none of the mobiles that received these texts had subscribed to any service of Moby Magic. Icstis found them guilty of breaking their rules & regs, for what it's worth, so there can be no argument.

 

You make it sound so easy how to stop these texts, if only so. If it has been a 'genuine mistake' by a decent agreggator then the texts will stop. I have come across too many incidents when the poor sod has text 'stop' or 'stop all' and they kept coming. You get no help from your network, they tell you that it's not their responsibility. This is the real picture! One guy contacted me that over a weekend he had received 150, yes 150 texts. He has a court case pending , I am waiting to hear the outcome.

 

I would like to take you up on your statement:

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

'The Network can check if any 'request' message was sent by the mobile, giving date and time, proving the service was requested, end of story.'

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Sorry old mate not 'the end of story' I dont agree, Vodafone were unable, or weren't prepared to supply me with any details of outgoing texts. From the contacts that I have made not one has told of their network supplying details of outgoing texts. They were forced to do their own searching. As I said not all networks are prepared to assist, perhaps Orange are different????????????

 

You have used the excuses that I have read used in many Icstis adjudications. How a friend must have phoned, on your 0871 12p a minute line, in response to an advert in a paper or TV ad, or even they subscribed from a web site and gave your mobile number. You have even used this story to explain away Darrens post. Please give me some credit, it doesn't wash with me or with Icstis I am glad to say.

 

You say that if the victim produced their phone bill to prove they never phoned that's ok, why should the victim have to prove their innocence? Icstis rules state that companies do not have to keep records of incoming calls to use as proof of subscription, why? Surely this would the perfect answer, perhaps too perfect for some companies.

 

Yes at some time we all receive spam of some sorts, but we are not charged for the pleasure of receiving something we don't want as with unsolicited reverse bill text, we are talking about 'chalk & cheese' here. I agree that people do subscribe to such service and they are happy with it too. That is good but we are talking about the other side of the coin. We are talking about the crooked companies that [problem], that word again, not the legit business. That is why I titled this thread Unsolicited Reverse Bill Texts

 

With regards to the profit margin, the legit side of the industry turned over £1.6b in 2005, a nice little earner. Charges do vary from company to company and text run to text run depending on the numbers dispatched, but when a run consists of tens of thousands of numbers even at 10p a time, it is not bad for a days work. The growth of this industry show the profits that are available otherwise companies would not fighting to get on the bandwagen. You only have to see the back pages of ads of all local and national papers to see how the industry is growing.

You say that the networks don't make big profits from premium rate text, I disagree. It is easy to confirm that the networks can take up to 35p for a text delivery on their network. No network will allow a customer to block incoming premium rate texts except for T-Mobile. Why? It is not to give the customer a service, they don't want the service!

 

As I said before we can't turn the clock back, we have the problem here and now and it need to be put in check for the protection of all sides. You and Buzzer put the blame on us, the public, because we didn't complain when the industry came into being, I don't think anyone realised that we would had created a frankensteins monster to come and bite us all on the ass, although it was clear to see how an easy buck could be made.

 

I also work with the public and understand how difficult life is in a CS dept, I take it that you are with Orange CS. People calling who have cocked up and blame everyone but themself, but not all the time, sometimes they have a good case and you must except that.

 

The networks are part of the problem, they carry the traffic as you well know they are also our first contact. The main problem is with the service, content & information providers that is what we have to look at. We need to bring the premium rate industry in line with all other services, they need to rid themselves of the cowboys for the protection of the public.

[buzby]

This happened to my 12 year old son. When we asked o2 when he sent the text we realised that the phone was turned off all that week and locked in the safe as he was on a school trip and not allowed to take it.

 

Just two observations; I'm not clear whether you are complaing about a premium text or a reverse charge text. The first, most certainly couldn't be made unless the phone (and SIM card) was in your son's possession - a phone in a safe doesn't really prove anything. If a reverse-charge text, the date/time of it would be when the provider billed by text. The phone doesn't even need to be switched on or in coverage for the amount to be billed.

[Gino32]

Hi Buzby,

He does say that o2 gave him the date & time the text was suppose to have been sent and the phone was locked away when his lad was on a school trip. O2 responded by saying someone else must have sent it. It's the same, same old story they use all the time! You must be guilty!!!!

 

Darren

Hi mate don't stand for it, contact o2 and get details of who sent the texts, make contact with them by e-mail as their phone numbers will be 12p per minute. Ask for details when your son was supposed to have subscribed to their service. If your sons phone is PAYG you may have a problem as I have heard of o2 charging £10 for a call printout, but they may be more helpful.

[buzby]

O2's info can be suspect at the best of times - but the most important thing is what type of charging was involved, inbound or outbound - for the reasons already stated.

[Gino32]

The fact that Darren has taken the time to post his problem says that he disputes the text. Only contacting the information provider via the agreggator will confirm this and he can take it from there. So he has to rely on o2 for help.

 

Let us know how things stand Darren?

[goodwill]

Sorry got to respond on this one, and yes i am 'in the business' mainly on the recieving end of the rants and raves!

Gino32, you are very emotive on this subject and your posts suggest that you are a sole recipient of numerous charged texts on a daily basis!

I Have worked at front line for 6 years on pay as you go helpdesk and pay monthly, and these 'unsolicited' sms come up a few times a week - note i say 'a few times a week', with millions of customers on our network alone, the problem is not as widespread as you make out.

Quite

futher information can be found here

Bibliomania: Free Online Literature and Study Guides

 

here's a case concerning Orange customers from

13 September 2006

Icstis claimed they recieved 6 complaints

ICSTIS Consumer - Adjudications

Background Complaints were received regarding an unsolicited text message sent to their mobile phones, which charged them 50p for its receipt. It appeared that only customers on the Orange mobile network were targeted.

 

The message stated – ‘Update: Your services have been modified. Please turn the handset off, then back on, for any changes to take effect’.

As the unsolicited message charged recipients, for the purpose of this investigation it was considered to be both the promotion and the service in its entirety.

 

Investigation & Decision Opera Telecomresponded to the alleged breaches directly but stated that their information provider was responsible.

 

They stated that they realised there was a potential problem with this client when they noticed the number of messages that had gone out over their system, 60,043.

The Orange billing platform in common with other billing platforms has a mechanism to identify Artifically Inflated Traffic (AIT).

Orange, BT etc use this mechanism to protect themselves from fraud.

Why don't they use it to protect thier customers from fraud?

 

 

[Darren]

Darren

Hi mate don't stand for it, contact o2 and get details of who sent the texts, make contact with them by e-mail as their phone numbers will be 12p per minute. Ask for details when your son was supposed to have subscribed to their service. If your sons phone is PAYG you may have a problem as I have heard of o2 charging £10 for a call printout, but they may be more helpful.

 

we put him on contract last november and outgoing calls were stopped after a week. when we queried this it was because he had sent a few texts, (£70 - yes in 1 week) 1 being jamster who was the biggest culprit. we got it sorted and got a bit of money back because we could text STOP with the restriction on. I did querie the amount and told them that ICSTIS states that at that age there is a maximum charge (cant remember how much) and that as they had all charged more I asked for the proof of age they had. anyway o2 were not that interested in looking any further into it and at the time I was in the middle of claiming my bank charges so I just paid and forgot it. Trouble is these companies now have his number on record, having said that he hasn't even received the texts in question. I have asked for an itemised copy of his bill and I will probably send an SAR.

 

part of the reason o2 are not that interested is that 1 of the numbers was 80202 which is their own.

 

I will keep you updated

[goodwill]

Originally Posted by Gino32

Darren

Hi mate don't stand for it, contact o2 and get details of who sent the texts, make contact with them by e-mail as their phone numbers will be 12p per minute. Ask for details when your son was supposed to have subscribed to their service. If your sons phone is PAYG you may have a problem as I have heard of o2 charging £10 for a call printout, but they may be more helpful.

ditto

we put him on contract last november and outgoing calls were stopped after a week. when we queried this it was because he had sent a few texts, (£70 - yes in 1 week)

doesn't leave many options as to who gave the crooks his number!

 

o2 Online Ltd's recent Icstis record

http://www.icstis.org.uk/consumers/adjudications/default.asp?mode=1&serviceprovider=O2+Online+Ltd&servicetype=&fine=0&submit=+search+

 

here's one of the board members of the "independant" regulator

http://www.icstis.org.uk/about/icstis/board/Mike_Short.asp

mike short is Vice President - Research and Development at O2.

best of luck Darren