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    • Dear All,   BN - Thank you for your comments.    My wife had prepared the relevant notice to the court and rather than spending time redacting I am sending it as PM to the contributors to this thread. It covers everything we have been discussing and is in line with  your comments and our discussions.   For the benefit of readers oif CAG I will redact and post it later as we have pressing family medical matters to attend to.    Warm regards BF  
    • Maybe have a third chamber, The Peoples' House 😃
    • Thanks for the images. It's shocking. This more than ever reinforces my view that you should take this to court. The number of people they must be fobbing off with this three months story is incredible – and they need pulling into line. If you simply complain to the CEO then they may sort out your problems – but the rest of it will go on as usual. They need something very serious here. In fact, I would think about suing them for £200 because I think that once they realise about the mistake they are making, they will be extremely anxious not to go to court. On the basis of this, I'm afraid I don't think I would even alert the CEO. I would send a letter of claim which will probably simply be seen by drones – and then issue the papers. I think you have an easy win on this case. Also, once they realise that they are dealing with a court case, they will look at the whole situation more carefully and they will probably sort out all of the problems at the same time. If they don't, then these two have laid down your marker and they will know that you're not mucking around and they will take you seriously.
    • These are the two incidents from Virgin Chat where their Live chat has informed me of the 'only 3 months' decision.... 15 April was the date they acknowledged receipt of my SAR. Apparently anything from before that date can't be included!
    • You could try both routes at the same time. Send your letter of claim by email to the CEO email address. Confirmed by letter. That way you have communicated with the CEO – but given a very definite deadline and a very definite promise as to what will happen if they don't comply. Then on day 15 sent the claim. Don't make a threat of legal action if you don't intend to carry it out. Don't bluff – but it is very easy to do
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    • Hermes lost parcel.. Read more at https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/422615-hermes-lost-parcel/
      • 49 replies
    • Oven repair. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/427690-oven-repair/&do=findComment&comment=5073391
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    • I came across this discussion recently and just wanted to give my experience of A Shade Greener that may help others regarding their boiler finance agreement.
       
      We had a 10yr  finance contract for a boiler fitted July 2015.
       
      After a summer of discontent with ASG I discovered that if you have paid HALF the agreement or more you can legally return the boiler to them at no cost to yourself. I've just returned mine the feeling is liberating.
       
      It all started mid summer during lockdown when they refused to service our boiler because we didn't have a loft ladder or flooring installed despite the fact AS installed the boiler. and had previosuly serviced it without issue for 4yrs. After consulting with an independent installer I was informed that if this was the case then ASG had breached building regulations,  this was duly reported to Gas Safe to investigate and even then ASG refused to accept blame and repeatedly said it was my problem. Anyway Gas Safe found them in breach of building regs and a compromise was reached.
       
      A month later and ASG attended to service our boiler but in the process left the boiler unusuable as it kept losing pressure not to mention they had damaged the filling loop in the process which they said was my responsibilty not theres and would charge me to repair, so generous of them! Soon after reporting the fault I got a letter stating it was time we arranged a powerflush on our heating system which they make you do after 5 years even though there's nothing in the contract that states this. Coincidence?
       
      After a few heated exchanges with ASG (pardon the pun) I decided to pull the plug and cancel our agreement.
       
      The boiler was removed and replaced by a reputable installer,  and the old boiler was returned to ASG thus ending our contract with them. What's mad is I saved in excess of £1000 in the long run and got a new boiler with a brand new 12yr warranty. 
       
      You only have to look at TrustPilot to get an idea of what this company is like.
       
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    • Dazza a few months ago I discovered a good friend of mine who had ten debts with cards and catalogues which he was slavishly paying off at detriment to his own family quality of life, and I mean hardship, not just absence of second holidays or flat screen TV's.
       
      I wrote to all his creditors asking for supporting documents and not one could provide any material that would allow them to enforce the debt.
       
      As a result he stopped paying and they have been unable to do anything, one even admitted it was unenforceable.
       
      If circumstances have got to the point where you are finding it unmanageable you must ask yourself why you feel the need to pay.  I guarantee you that these companies have built bad debt into their business model and no one over there is losing any sleep over your debt to them!  They will see you as a victim and cash cow and they will be reluctant to discuss final offers, only ways to keep you paying with threats of court action or seizing your assets if you have any.
       
      They are not your friends and you owe them no loyalty or moral duty, that must remain only for yourself and your family.
       
      If it was me I would send them all a CCA request.   I would bet that not one will provide the correct response and you can quite legally stop paying them until such time as they do provide a response.   Even when they do you should check back here as they mostly send dodgy photo copies or generic rubbish that has no connection with your supposed debt.
       
      The money you are paying them should, as far as you are able, be put to a savings account for yourself and as a means of paying of one of these fleecers should they ever manage to get to to the point of a successful court judgement.  After six years they will not be able to start court action and that money will then become yours.
       
      They will of course pursue you for the funds and pass your file around various departments of their business and out to third parties.
       
      Your response is that you should treat it as a hobby.  I have numerous files of correspondence each faithfully organised showing the various letters from different DCA;s , solicitors etc with a mix of threats, inducements and offers.   It is like my stamp collection and I show it to anyone who is interested!
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Court appointed bailiffs should deal with those people rather than dodgy private bailiffs and the law should be strong enough to empower them. As for someone with BMW's, Mercs, speedboats, etc - I wholeheartedly agree that they should not be able to laugh in the face of the law, particular when the court is the one enforcing the payment. I very much doubt many CAGgers fall into that category though. Most people just can't afford to pay what big greedy companies are trying to screw out of them.

 

I was a court appointed bailiff- although private one has to appear before and be approve by the magistrates in court.- it is a personal not a company licence!!

 

The bailiff also has to enter into a financial bond with the court , to guarantee to the court that they will obey its commands and act within the law.

 

when the court issues a warrant for the bailiff to seize the debtors goods the time for talking is over the warrant orders the bailiff that he MUST obtain payment iin full or remove sufficient of the debtors goods to pay the warrant.

 

any arrangement the bailiff makes to part pay or call back later is in contravention of his licence

 

 

i agree with your other comments- you may be comforted to know i got the sack for entering into too may payment arrangements!!

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Court appointed bailiffs should deal with those people rather than dodgy private bailiffs and the law should be strong enough to empower them. As for someone with BMW's, Mercs, speedboats, etc - I wholeheartedly agree that they should not be able to laugh in the face of the law, particular when the court is the one enforcing the payment. I very much doubt many CAGgers fall into that category though. Most people just can't afford to pay what big greedy companies are trying to screw out of them.

 

motoring offences - 90% of people COULD afford to pay

 

no TV licence etc - what a waste of time- almost always single mums who are in **** street- i wrote them ALL off as no goods to levy!!

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Exactly Diddy, that is what we are saying. Court appointed/instructed/guaranteed, whatever we wish to refer to it as, is basically fine and acceptable in a civilised society. A bailiff acting without that control, i.e. on their own volition, cannot, intrinsically, be trusted as it is open to vigilantism and abuse beyond what civilised society should allow and hence why I think if a bailiff operates on that side, they qualify as being treated as **** whether or not they truly are. If you want to be professional in your job, be a professional.

 

A self appointed copper not working for the police force would not be acceptable, nor should a self appointed bailiff acting under arbitrary requests from dodgy (even if legally sound and publicly owned) companies.

 

As for you getting the sack, I would never be comforted in knowing someone found themselves out of work, but it sounds like you may well have been more decent than many others. So you actually where court appointed then in reality, Diddy?

I wonder if MBNA are the new Enron :roll:

 

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It isn't flawed. A court appointed bailiff would be able to enter and I would comply as I would have gone to court, faced a judge, and would be obliged to do as I am told. A non court appointed bailiff would not have the right and would not be able to be accompanied by the police, in fact I could call the police, but since I can defend myself and my property I would, since I am defending myself against someone who has no legal right to enter.

 

ok, i dont want to get into a protracted argument howwever, let me re assure you, a private bailiff acting on a court warrant has the full power of the law,

 

If the bailiff has once entered your property in connection with the warrant- for instance to make a walking inventory and given you time to pay before removal, he is entitled to force entry on his return irrespective of your wishes

 

The police do not assist bailiffs- however they would be asked to attend in order to prevent a breach of the peace if violence was threatened or anticipated,

 

as you rightly say the bailiff himself could be arrested if he breached the peace- in reality the locksmith who is attending to open the lock is the one who usually will not attend unless the police do (he is the first one you will kung fu kick?)

 

Why should the bailiff want to breach the peace- he is simply doing a job,

 

Any violence or THREAT of violence on your part would be a breach of the peace and this is what the police would arrest you for! not in order to help the bailiff (you did that when you used your kung fu!)

 

far better at that stage to either get on the phone to the creditor and try to persuade them to call the dogs off -- or let the bailiff in and at least be in some semblence of control of what is taken

 

i suspect however that you will neither accept my advice or my reasoning - so peace to all

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This whole area is complex, have a read of this....

 

If you think that bailiffs may call at your house, be aware that you do not have to let them in.

However, if you leave any doors or windows open they have the right to enter through them.

Once they have gained entry they may also force entry to any other parts of the premises.

However, if you do refuse to let them in then they will be sure to return at some other time and the problem will not go away. In the long term you need to seek help from one of the agencies listed below.

What can I do if I receive a notice to say a bailiff is coming to my house?

If you have received notification to say a bailiff is going to call at your house, you may be able to negotiate with them or the lender (creditor).

You may also be able to make an application to the court to suspend the bailiff's action. Your local CAB or an advice agency will be able to advise you on how this can be done.

If you cannot suspend the bailiff's action, it may not be too late to make an offer to the bailiff to repay the debt over a period of time.

If you cannot afford to make the bailiff an offer, your local CAB may be able to help by negotiating with the bailiff on your behalf.

When you seek advice make sure you have all the necessary papers left by the bailiff.

If you know a bailiff is going to call, try to have a witness there and make sure you note down everything the bailiff says or any of the powers they claim to have.

Read on for a fuller and deeper insight on bailiffs.

A visit from a bailiff can be a frightening and stressful experience. This page explains what a bailiff can and cannot do when they call at your home.

How do I deal with a bailiff at my door?

The bailiff can call at your house at any reasonable time to seize goods, but you do not have to let them in.

The bailiff cannot enter your house by force, but they can legally enter your property through open windows or unlocked doors, so make sure all your doors and windows are locked or closed!

Once the bailiff has been inside your house by entering peacefully, they can call again at a later date and enter your house without your permission, forcefully, to remove your goods.

When seizing goods the bailiff must leave the premises safe.

When in your house the bailiff has the right of access to all rooms and can force their way into other parts of the property.

Which goods can a bailiff take?

There are some exceptions to what the bailiff can take from your home:-

A bailiff acting on a County Court Judgment cannot seize clothing, bedding, furniture, household equipment or other goods necessary to meet basic domestic needs.

Generally, no bailiff can seize tools, books, vehicles or other equipment necessary for personal use in employment or business. However, a bailiff acting for Poll Tax, Council Tax, VAT and Tax may be able to do so.

No bailiff can seize goods belonging to anyone other than the person named on the distress warrant.

A bailiff cannot seize goods subject to a hire purchase or rental agreement (goods on credit sale can be seized because they belong to the person).

Goods you own jointly with someone else can be taken.

The bailiff may take the goods away immediately, but what will usually happen is that the bailiff and the debtor will come to an agreement known as a "walking possession agreement".

This means that the debtor has agreed to pay the bailiff a maximum of 45pence plus VAT per day for the continued use of the goods.

This is not permanent and will only give the debtor a few days to try and re-negotiate with the court. If a bailiff has gained entry and the debtor does not want the goods to be removed immediately, this agreement has to be signed.

Goods seized by the bailiff must be put into auction to be sold, the bailiff is under a legal obligation to obtain the best price possible. As the goods are second-hand, the value of the goods are only a fraction of what their new value was. A bailiff will often identify many more goods than you might expect.

Your rights

You cannot be sent to prision for not co-operating with a bailiff. You do not have to let them into your house. You should seek advice as soon as possible.

A bailiff must not threaten you illegally, force entry to your home or use offensive language. If you are concerned about a bailiff's behaviour, you can complain either to the creditor or to the court that sent them.

Types of bailiff

A bailiff is someone who is instructed:-

dot.gifby a creditor to enforce a money debt or a fine

dot.gifby a landlord to carry out an eviction

dot.gifby a creditor to repossess goods under hire purchase or a conditional sale agreement

dot.gifto enforce an injunction

A bailiff has legal authority to carry out these actions. A bailiff can enter your home and take away possessions which, when sold off, will go towards repaying the money owed.

There are three different kinds of bailiffs: County Court bailiffs, Sheriff's Officers and private bailiffs.

County Court bailiffs are directly employed by the County Court and must follow guidelines laid down by the Lord Chancellor's Department.

Sheriff's Officers are contracted by the High Court and work in geographical county areas. They work out of the local Sheriff's Office under the control of an Under- Sheriff who is usually responsible for that area. If a creditor has a CCJ of more than £600 they can transfer the judgement up to the High Court for enforcement.

Private bailiffs are self-employed, employed by a private firm, or employed as bailiffs by another organisation (e.g Local Authority, Inland Revenue).

Certificated bailiffs are granted a certificate following an application to a County Court. Certification is only necessary to empower a bailiff to levy distress for rent arrears and council tax arrears and to enforce road traffic debts, although some local authorities will insist on this for all bailiff work.

To be granted a certificate a bailiff must:-

1) Satisfy the court that s/he is a 'fit and proper person' to hold a certificate and possesses sufficiant knowledge of the law of distress; and

2) Lodge in court a bond or deposit for £10,000 or have an insurance indemnity for this amount. A new security must be provided if the old security runs out or is reduced.

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Exactly Diddy, that is what we are saying. Court appointed/instructed/guaranteed, whatever we wish to refer to it as, is basically fine and acceptable in a civilised society. A bailiff acting without that control, i.e. on their own volition, cannot, intrinsically, be trusted as it is open to vigilantism and abuse beyond what civilised society should allow and hence why I think if a bailiff operates on that side, they qualify as being treated as **** whether or not they truly are. If you want to be professional in your job, be a professional.

 

A self appointed copper not working for the police force would not be acceptable, nor should a self appointed bailiff acting under arbitrary requests from dodgy (even if legally sound and publicly owned) companies.

 

As for you getting the sack, I would never be comforted in knowing someone found themselves out of work, but it sounds like you may well have been more decent than many others. So you actually where court appointed then in reality, Diddy?

 

ALL private bailiffs are licensed individually by the court (and re licensed every two years) apart from trainees who must be accompanied by a certified bailiff

 

if he is not licensed by the court he is a debt collector not a bailiff- and has no powers whatsoever apart from persuasion

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I think this is all a matter of semantics relating to the word "bailiff" and the process of being "court appointed". Let's simplify it by saying a person appointed by a court after a case being heard can legally enter your premises regardless of how you feel, whereas someone attempting to enter your property without the court agreeing to it is trespassing if you prefer them not to do so.

 

Protecting ones own property and person (you could argue you felt threatened) is grounds for defending ones self. I don't mean kicking the holy s**** out of them (as much as you may want to!) but defending yourself from being violated in terms of your home being ransacked by another person, your person being forced to face that, etc etc.

 

So it all comes down to if a court says so then you have to put up with it as you should have complied with whatever the court demanded. If no court has been involved or agreed to any person seizing your goods then you can defend yourself. As Mr Ton says, it is a bit tricky as if you leave a window open, etc, then that is a different ball game. But say I came home to find someone ransacking my home and no court case had been heard, then I am justified in thinking it is a buglar and I can defend my property and assume I may also be in danger by doing so - would that not be the case?

 

Of course, there is that caveat of if they managed to gain entrance in the first place and left the place safely then it gets a bit tricky. In my opinion that law needs tightening as no one should be allowed to enter your property even if you don't leave the place secured - it is trespassing, full stop.

 

I maintain that, ideally, only under court order, should anyone have the power to even attempt to come to your door and collect anything. That is the civilised way. Contracts are drawn up between lenders and debtors and to enforce them, the law should be used, no other means. An MD of a company cannot just get a bloke from down the pub to burst into the offices of another company just because their deal went south, if there are legal grounds for recovery or compensation under the contract terms, then court is the answer. Courts are better equipped to judge the situation than a bloke who gets paid to put the frighteners on people who just couldn't make ends meet and found themselves up the creek.

 

Diddy, I think we are talking about the same thing really, but just a few wires crossed. Incidentally, I wouldn't go for the locksmith - the scenario I was considering was a thug sticking his boot in my door attempting to gain access by attempting to stop me from stopping him. He would be very much out and away from the door quicker than he could comprehend what happened, followed by some advisory words from me, followed by a slammed door. Any attempt by him to continue his behaviour would be met by increasing persuation along the same lines, and if he was silly enough to continue after I get bored, the police would be called to remove the intruder citing that I do not wish to harm him but it is getting more difficult. As an ex-bobby, how do you think that would come off? I have no interest in violence, only defense against what I perceive as bullies.

I wonder if MBNA are the new Enron :roll:

 

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i think that you have to put yourself in the position of the other person,

 

let's imagine you are a self employed builder.electrician/plumber, whatever, you do a weeks work on a guys house and he pays you 1200 by cheque the guys cheque bounces, you are finding it hard as that money was your weeks money for the mortgage, food,kids school outing and general business expense and parts that you used, -

 

you go to his house to see him which is furnished with the plasma and all the other trappings, and he is clearly flush,but he is full of excuses/promises to pay but after several weeks.months it is clear he aint gonna pay.

 

you take you case through the courts, itself a tedious and time consuming process when you have as business to run and get a court judgement for the 3000 and your expenses chasing the money, he is self employed so no attachment of earnings,

 

the guy knows the ropes and basically laughs in the courts face, your only and last hope is the bailiff but he threatens what he will do to the bailiff in the way you suggest, if they come near his house

 

the bailiff is a wimp and faced with your threats s leaves you alone, send the warrant back and says he cannot get the money

 

how would YOU feel, if the boot was on the other foot

 

I rather fancy that you would berate the legal system and the bailiffs for letting you down, after all its a civil debt- you cant get the guy into prison and the bailiff was the last resort,

 

worse still- he tells all his mates- run up bills , refuse to pay them- threaten the bailiff and in the end hey presto free money/goods!!

 

people often think that no one gets hurt if they dont pay a debt but often they do

 

weaken or remove the bailiff system- but what to put it its place

 

if that was you, would you really be happy with 5 pound a month for the next 20 years?.

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Yes I agree with you about a small business, but that is where the law needs changing to make it easier to use the small claims process to enforce repayment or goods to be seized. I still do not agree with random thugs, recently been down the gym, looking menacing, frightening the vulnerable. In any case, the likes of Power2Contact don't even use thuggery, but unlawful trickery on behalf of large corporations who cannot be bothered to help the vulnerable - they understand ever increasing profit, nothing else.

 

So our argument is sort of skidding all over the place ;-)

 

I agree with many of your principles as above, but I still think the law should deal with all of these issues and if it doesn't at present as you say, then it needs changing. All bailiffs should be strictly controlled by the legal system in order to operate, and big enough to be a deterrent penalties should exist for anyone not licensed and obeying the rules of their license.

 

As for your numerous payment plans, that should have been seen as a good thing, again in a civilised world, but I guess it wasn't profitable enough for your bosses.

I wonder if MBNA are the new Enron :roll:

 

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Power 2 Contact are a company used by creditors to apply additional pressure on people to pay what the creditor thinks is due. Their tactics may be suspect, but you have to deal with these in the proper manner. You can exclude them from visiting your property, despite what they say to the contrary. You must realise however that they are not going to give up their business, just because you say so. If they break the rules, then you must follow through legally. Issue your notices then call the police if they refuse to go. I will have a wager that if you tell them politely that the account is in dispute and to go, they will. If you are aggressive with them from the start, they will dig their heals in. Confrontation is not always the best way.

 

Attacking someone, not in self defence, is against the law as it should be. This not only includes women, children, little old ladies and the vulnerable but the whole population, including those who are carrying out their jobs whether or not in a legal manner. If you go on the offensive, then you risk the full wrath of the law, as you should. You may use reasonable force, but I would doubt anyone would see it reasonable to use any form of violence, where someone has not threatened, or used violence against you. The people to handle this are the Police.

 

Baliffs have a legal and important part to play in society, as already demonstrated by DD. If that does not fit with individuals views then no one will be able to alter that view, nomatter how coherent the argument.

 

I have only ever dealt with a baliff once so far in my life. He was court appointed and was trying to collect on a debt run up by my business partner, before I was involved in the business. My business partner fled and could not be found. As the stock in the business was partly from partnership times, he had the legal right to issue a walking possesion order. He understood the situation, offered advice and did not issue the order. He called quite a few times, first as a baliff and later as a very good customer. Treat people as you would wish to be treated. You never know, you may make a bob or two. I did.

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Hi Vint

 

I agree. My arguments are against those unscrupulous ones I have seen on a few documentaries. Anyone pushing themselves into my home is breaking and entering and will be forced out. I have never said that I would attack them or go on the offensive. Again, this is all a matter of semantics. If I said I would kick the holy c*** out of them that is very different to saying I would defend myself and property which can range from preventing them from entering to pushing them, to smashing their foot with a sledge hammer should it enter the door. I would personally use minimal and reasonable force to prevent them from entering when they are not permitted.

 

All of that said, I have never had to deal with one and hope I never have to. I have only had minimal dealings with P2C when they sent a card through the post making it look like they had called around to see me - it was on behalf of my bank trying to collect arrears on a loan which I tried to get that bank to take out of my account, but who were so incompetent that they didn't bother taking it, but still used P2C to put on frigtheners, which didn't work. I sent them both letters telling them they had violated debt collection guidelines and that they should get their act together and take payments when I ask them to. End of my dealings with P2C.

 

So again, may I say, that I have no aggresive tendencies, I merely would use a level of force applicable to the level of force being used by the other person.

 

I agree about treating people as they treat you, but of course not everyone who goes around to collect from others is a decent person, I've had friends who have had nasty intimidating (so called) bailiffs, sent by (so called) reputable companies. They don't all act within the law, they don't all have the law on their side, they don't all deserve to be treated fairly, and not all people being chased by them have really done anything to deserve that kind of intimidation.

 

Right, now I think I have hijacked this thread discussing use of defense far too much (here here I hear you shout!)! We all have our opinions, understandings, and beliefs in what is right. Mine are centred on the fact that I despise those people who pick on people less able to defend themselves whether that be by physical force or by being a huge company with armies of people to hound the common man. It is a form of bullying that blights our society and should be replaced with good rule of law, good intentions from decent people, and a willingness for people to come to proper agreements to pay what they owe when they really do owe it.

 

On that utopian note, I must get back to work!

 

FBR

I wonder if MBNA are the new Enron :roll:

 

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wow, sorry did I start all of that???;)

No offence meant to you personally diddy, although I feel it touched a nerve.

This thread is about the company who think they have power, IE power to contact. Many on here have had experience of their unproffessional behaviour, and empty threats. Thats why they are here at this site and not the Bailliffs and DCA action group.com now I know how that meerkat feels Simples . ( Only joking, honest guv)

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Bailiffs do have a role to play in society Vint, i agree - but only those authorised by the courts.

Bailffs not authorised by the courts have no role to play in society whatsoever.

Yes, that was my point mr ton.

 

There is still the law to turn to if they do not follow proceedure. I just think that the first response, should someone call, should be a polite go away and tell them why!

 

It is also true however, that the thought of someone calling worries the life out of some, so they may not be able to speak to them on the doorstep.

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maybe a quick squirt of water from the letter box:D its not violent, itll put a smile on your face and imagine the embarrassment of a dodgy bailiff looking like hes wet himself:lol:

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here's the link to another thread re P2C and shows just how bad some operatives can be

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/224560-power-2-contact.html

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] I asked them to wait whilst I got my Bank card :violin:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Information that may help if a CCA request is refused due to the lack of a signature . . http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?248863-Signature-demands-fight-back-possible-!&highlight=

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I received a letter from P2C today. It wasnt a card, it was a sealed perforated letter telling me their visiting hours.

 

Do they actually visit?

 

You might want to take a listen to this phone recording a made when I phoned the monkeys:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/217021-power2contact-have-no-intention.html

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I received a letter from P2C today. It wasnt a card, it was a sealed perforated letter telling me their visiting hours.

 

Do they actually visit?

Yes, they came to see me twice, but I was out on both occations.

 

I sent them the do not darken my doorstep, twice. Also reported them to TS. They have not been back since.

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