Ony vs Natwest (Cobbetts) Need Help!

[ony]

I seem to have got myself in a real pickle. On the advice of friends who had completed the process I submitted what appears to be an incorrectly compiled POC. I submitted that with a schedule of charges and refund letter to NatWest. I didnt send the LBA, again on sibling advice as NatWest failed to acknowledge receipt of my refund request.

 

I called West London CC and asked whether I needed to break up my claim as inc interest it amounts to £8582.91 ( Interest £7001.91 & charges £1582.00) but now I see from the AQ that I cannot fast track it, or can I? Was I incorrectly advised?

 

And it gets worse I was also advised to use an interest rate of 29.5%, which I did. (My nerves are shot!)

 

I have attached pertinent documents:

 

1/ Details of Cobbets defence

2/ Refund request

3/ Charges schedule

4/ POC

 

I have downloaded a form from the court allowing me to amend my POC stating my reasons being:

 

"Unaware of the proper procedure I incorrectly submitted insufficient and improperly compiled information on my original Particulars of Claim. This I have now amended. NatWest in their defence received today 16.5.07 have asked the court that I be given the opportunity to properly particularise my claim which I now believe I have done."

 

I know I've botched it up (thats the last time I take sibling advice) and any advice is much needed and doubly appreciated.

 

What do I do next?

 

TIA

[ony]

Its seems I am going to have to try to pull my fat out of the fire here (good lesson learned, follow the directions given to the letter).

 

Should I restart my claim or will this work?

 

1/ have asked for an amendment to my POC to which I have attached a new I believe properly completed POC. My excuse "Unaware of the proper procedure I was to follow I incorrectly submitted insufficient and improperly compiled information on my original Particulars of Claim Form. I have now completed a new form and would ask the court with the utmost of respect to consider this new claim form and continue proceedings." I have also included the proper POC content (duly amended) from this site in the amendment and new POC. Here's hoping I get an understanding judge! Need I add that NatWest "On allocation the defendent invites teh court to direct that there be a case management conference in order to consider the making of appropriate orders t the claimant the opportunity to properly particularise the claim"?

 

2/ Completed AQ (as directed here) one point can I ask for small claims (Charges £1581.00, interest £7001.91; total £8582.91) am still not too clear on this?

3/ Attach Do + Other info letter to AQ and send to Cobbetts and Court

4/ PRAY......

 

Is that about it?

[ony]

I feel I'm getting somewhere here but now stuck between a rock and a hard place. As I have already included interest at 29.5% as directed (other site) I have included their POC details as shown in my new POC (attached).

 

What to do? Should I continue with the 29.5% or nix it, and go with the POC details shown here?

 

progress is being made.

[fidz]

hello ony

I think dont panic not too sure about the procedure required only i did remember that i read a thread/post about ammending your claim at the stage you are

have a good look

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/47344-claim-too-vague-defence.html

 

And dont worry about the vauge or lloyds bit in the title the ruling point of law as a they are in that instance apply directly to what it is your after also read the nasty west forum guide on applying interest etc and probably the safest tryed and proven way is to use the inertest spreadsheets available that apply the interest and produce the scheduales you will need

fidz

[ony]

Fidz,

 

thanks for both of those. the amended claim thread really helped. But got to admit the interest calculator is greek to me; totally confused. I used another spreadsheet from another site that compounded interest and all I had to do was input charges/dates and interest rate & that was it. I just dont get the interest charged/interest date. and then the interest on penalties column doesnt update.

 

And then Nasty west havent included myn interest rate in the statements sent in the later years. Its just 'interet'.

 

I'm at a loss... Am I being exceeding stupid or what..

[fidz]

relax ony you read as tired and confusded and uber stressed, thats understandable but your not doing yourself any favors and could potentialy do more damage than good seriously relax & calm yourself Ka Ka Ka 'chill with the still' as is said.

 

my advice i'd be carfull about the compound interest stuff that could turn around and bite you later try get some rest now.

 

I guess (but am not sure) you can apply the same rate as 'nasty west' apply to you , stands to logic if you ask me.

more over there is 'contractual interest' being writen about on this site as having been used sucsessfully i'm not sure as yet how when or where to apply that yet as i havent delved into that enuf as yet so i 'm gonna have to say best thing look and do some research. i think tis mentioned and linked on one of the posts in the thread i linked eariler. if not there then definatly in one of the most recent theads in the banking or welcome sections.

 

So best safe now than sorry later as i said get some rest and have afresh look later try again to use this sites charges and interest calc as i said it will produce the schedule of charges and interest for you. the colums should update unless you leave or enter an unrecognised charecter one of the cells it would then ahve a cascadeing affect. that could be the issue.

 

sorry i cant be of more help now i also need some sleep my self.

 

PLease dont' misundersand you can also count on me but am non sure of how much more help i can give am kinda new here and still finding my feet

only am more than willing to help in any way i can and your quirees help me too so I'll monitor this thread. But I srtongly uge you to get in contact with a site moderator their names are highlighted in all the active members and users list in the root of the forum. for more support and to clarify any thing you need ie the calc and to verify all of the above and that your making the corect steps

 

laterz for a few hours

[justwon]

It's just a simple case of putting in an amended claim.

 

It's imperative that you progress as is if your claim will be subject to a full hearing - people have being getting complacent and seem to think that court is a rubber stamping exercise.

 

If no-one as helped you in the next through days then I will help you with an amended claim. Look at my previous thread for examples.

[c_allen]

you're perfectly entitled to claim C/I at their own unauthorised borrowing rate, just din't forget to put in s69 in the alternative,

it's good you've got Justwon helping, i must admit to nicking a lot of very useful stuff off his threads for my claims:D

[ony]

Can I first say Fidz thanks for the very good advice. I was going out of my box at one stage, chain smoking but calmed down and began to get my head around things. I made some headway and I think I have it right but all the legal jargon scares the daylights out of me; just creates brain freeze. Anyway will soldier on. Progress so far. [Will PM a moderator for advice].

 

OK got the spreedsheet to work and will post should I need further aid (which is likely ) But much THX, very much appreciated.

 

you're perfectly entitled to claim C/I at their own unauthorised borrowing rate, just din't forget to put in s69 in the alternative,

 

'In the alternative'? Is this what you mean?

From http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/681-4-particulars-claim-n1.html

 

Value:

 

Charges £xx.xx (total charges)

Overdraft Interest £xx.xx (Total interest on charges at 29.5%)

Interest under s.69 County Courts Act 1984 £xxx.xx (8% from Spreadsheet)

Court Fee £xx.xx

 

TOTAL £ xx.xx (combined total from above)

 

Plus interest pursuant to S.69 County Courts Act 1984 from date of issue to date of judgement/settlement at £xx.xx per day [(enter daily rate here - (CHARGES+OD interest)x 0.00022 = pence per day)] OR at such rate and for such periods as the court deems just.

 

Am I therefore asking the court to award me 29.5% & 8% on charges since March 2001 + a further 8% from the issue of claim? Isnt that a bit much or did I miss something again?

It's just a simple case of putting in an amended claim.

 

It's imperative that you progress as is if your claim will be subject to a full hearing - people have being getting complacent and seem to think that court is a rubber stamping exercise.

 

Well you got me figured out.

 

Ok so I have completed and amended claim form (N244). My amendment reads:

 

because: 'the claimant did not adequately particularise his claim in that he did not specify the common law and statutory provisions upon which the claim relies and incorrectly completed the original Particulars of Claim form.'

 

Part C: 'I respectfully request that the court allows an amendment to my particulars of claim. Unaware of the proper procedure I incorrectly submitted insufficient and improperly compiled information on my original Particulars of Claim.

 

I would also like to note that the Defendent has asked the court in their defence; Section 3- "On allocation the Defendent invites the court to direct that there be a case management conference in order to consider the making of appropriate orders to give the claimant the opportunity to properly particularise the claim." [Do I need this]

 

I would submit that I have now revised my original claim and taken sufficient opportunity to properly particularise the claim as evidenced in the attached new Particulars of Claim. [Do I need this]

 

I would hope therefore that my claim can proceed as normal.' [Do I need this]

 

On to the POC itself; I have been reading this two threads;

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/681-4-particulars-claim-n1.html

&

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/15172-reply-stock-defence-18-a.html#post116506

 

Which to go with? I am of the mind to go with the latter post (as it appears to speed up the process) but that legal jargon again (T&C's no longer on website) etc. I have been to http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/90742-natwest-terms-conditions.html

for Natwest T&C's but seeing as I have had the account for over 15 years shouldnt I expect to rely on T&C's from then and not the most recent loop hole closing renditions? And if so where to get them?

 

Given I am submitting a request to an amend my POC to the court this latter new POC becomes my 'true' POC and so I need not submit a copy to Natwest.

 

 

Much THX, very much appreciated.

[ony]

Thanks for the template answers for the N150 AQ.

 

My claim is for £8700 (29.5% interest). I have followed the template and have asked the court to move it to the small claims track citing the template response to be used in the Other information section.

 

My question is, while it is up to the judge to decide, should I select Fast Track in the Track section or Small Claims track and add the same information as used in the Other Information field into the field provided under 'select an appropriate track' where it states; 'If you have indicated a track which would not be the normal track for the claim, please give brief reasons for your choice'?

 

THX

[ony]

I just received a 'goodwill' letter from NatWest for £1454.00 (no interest) which I am of course refusing for the big enchillada with full intrest applied.

 

Where can I find the response to goodwill gesture from bank?

 

Also in their letter NatWest state: "We explain all of our terms and conditions including our fees and charges at the account opening and they form the basis of your agreement with us. Full deetails are available at any time on our website and in our branches, and updates are sent out regularky to our customers."

 

In my original request I never included a request for the original T&C's at time of signing my agreement. As they refer to and included the most recent version BUT NOT th one I originally signed. Should I then ask for it directly in effect rejecting the most recent one received as it should cement my request for payment and will show to court Natwest's intransigence (should they not provide it which is I assume likely)?

 

Can I add this to my goodwill response letter. Found here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/92-3-letter-before-action.html

duly amendd of course!!

 

"You are also reminded of my request that you forward a copy of the Terms and Conditions that were in force at the time my account was opened, and any subsequent amendments to those Terms and Conditions. These are requested under CPR Pre-Action Protocol 4.6©, and your continued failure to provide them will be brought to the attention of the court, should it be necessary to commence a county court action."

 

NatWest Goodwill letters attached

[hedgey06]

Send them one of these ony - Rejecting Offers - just adapt to suit your case.

 

With regards to T&C's............... either ask them for a copy or have a look on Martin3030's thread (nat west terms and conditions).

 

Good luck, hedgey xxx

[ony]

Thx Hedgey!

[ony]

I just wanted to check I got this right as I made a pigs ear of my POC. NatWest sent me a good will gesture of charges only less interest. The amount offered was also lower than my computed charges. The included an attached form for me to sign accepting 'full and final settlement', no cheque or payment was made.

 

I have reviewed this and my intended letter is as below: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/25716-rejecting-offers.html

 

***

Thank you for your letter dated xx/xx/xx

 

I respectfully decline your offer of Full and Final settlement and request, once again, that you return to me all charges imposed on this account, totalling £xxxx including interest of XX

 

I will accept the sum offered only as part settlement and on the clear understanding that I will pursue recovery of the remainder, with a County Court claim if necessary. I also reject the further conditions of acceptance that you have attached to this offer, namely I DONT PUT MY ACCEPTANCE OF FULL/FINAL SETTLMENT HERE DO I?

 

If you do not accept my own conditions for acceptance, or you do not respond within 7 days, I shall proceed with legal action. For the avoidance of doubt, I wish to stress that I do not accept your offer under the terms stated in your letter.

 

I also note from your letter dated xx/xx/xx that refer to the terms and condition that 'form the basis of your agreement with us'. I would therefore ask under (IS THERE ANY LEGAL PRECEDENT I CAN INCLUDE HERE) that you furnish me with a copy of the original terms and conditions used at the time I opened an account with you as these were the terms upon which the our agreement was based.

 

I trust this clarifies my position.

 

****

[ony]

Natwest keep charging me.... despite the fact I have submitted docs to court (AQ), have a goodwill gesture from them. Is there no way to prevent them doing this (letter) or should I just call asking them to return the cash..?

 

thx

[steven4064]

NatWest in their defence received today 16.5.07 have asked the court that I be given the opportunity to properly particularise my claim which I now believe I have done.

 

I shouldn't worry about that. Cobbetts always say this - it is them trying to intimidate you.

 

As your claim is over £5000 it may get allocated to the Fast Track but that will become clear when you get your AQ (if you get one). It is possible that you might get allocated to the Small Claims Track even so. The AQ has a box to fill in for you to say why you think it should go to a particular track.

 

in the meantime, follow hedgey's advice

 

Steven

 

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[ony]

I shouldn't worry about that. Cobbetts always say this - it is them trying to intimidate you.

 

As your claim is over £5000 it may get allocated to the Fast Track but that will become clear when you get your AQ (if you get one). It is possible that you might get allocated to the Small Claims Track even so. The AQ has a box to fill in for you to say why you think it should go to a particular track.

 

in the meantime, follow hedgey's advice

 

Indeed and I have to the T (thx hedgey) but I have to admit I made a right balls up of my POC.

 

Called the court 5mins ago and told my amended POC was accepted and AQ infront of District Judge. Here's hoping for the fast track.

 

My immediate concern is to get Natwest to repay some £150 in charges to my account given am a) taking them to court for £8G and b) they have made an offer to repay my charges over 6 years (less interest).

 

I am assuming a call is due; need quote any particular case law or just the facts as they are?

 

thx

[steven4064]

Ony

 

I don't have any confidence that you telling them that you are currently taking them to court for £8k etc will make the sligtest difference to what they do about the £150.

 

Is the £150 for one particular month? (my daughter got £170 in charges over 1 weekend with NW - but that's another story). You could just try ringing your branch and asking for it back. I thas been known to work.

 

Steven

 

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[ony]

Ony

 

I don't have any confidence that you telling them that you are currently taking them to court for £8k etc will make the sligtest difference to what they do about the £150.

 

Aint that the truth.....

 

Will give them a call! Who dares....

[ony]

I originally screwed up my POC and had a court case yesterday 2/7/07 on accepting amendment which was successful. I

 

completed an AQ over a month ago and sent a schedule of payments etc both court and NatWest some time ago and just heard yesterday that court date is set for 30th october. In my AQ I included the template for the Draft Order of Directives and was wondering what to do next. In the Draft order is says "claimant shall within 14 days of service of this order send t the Defendent and Court..... If Claimant fails to comply with this order, the claim will be struck out without further order."

 

Now I am assuming that I must wait for the court to send me confirmation of the service of the order at which time I need to resend schedule, copies of statements, statement of evidence (whats this??) and copies of decided cases and other legal materials (where are these??) to both court and defendant?

[hedgey06]

Hi again ony, don't worry for the moment - you need to see if the judge grants the draft order for directions first. If he/she does - post back and we'll advise you which documents you need.

 

Don't worry - wait for directions from the court first! x

[ony]

Hi again ony, don't worry for the moment....Don't worry - wait for directions from the court first! x

 

Hey hedgey was I that obvious?

[ony]

OK, so received letter from the court confirming acceptance of draft order and request to use small claims track (£8600 claim):

 

Claimant shall by 25 July...;

 

a) schedule of each charge

b) copies of any statement...

c) statement of evidence of all matters relied upon.... (???)

d) copies of decided cases and other legal materials....(???)

 

What now, thx!

[hedgey06]

That's brilliant news ony........... wise judge! You're on the home straight now!

 

You need:

a) Up to date schedule of charges - make sure there's a description of each charge on it.

b) Copies of bank statements (the ones that have charges on them)

c) and d) Have a look in the nat west sticky on T&C's - there's a statement of evidence by stevepm in there (think it's number 39 but I'm not sure).

 

Also (I'm at work at the mo so haven't got a 'links' document open!), go to the main forum page and scroll up to the 'Guide to the Later Stages'. There's a sticky in there called 'Got a Court Date' - read through the sticky as it shows you everything that you need to put together for c) and d).

 

Hopefully, somebody can post some links up for you - if not, I'll post later with the links.

 

Best of luck mate :D

[steven4064]

Hi ony

 

hedgey has told you everything you need for a) to c). For d) you need http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/33060-basic-court-bundle.html

 

Steven

 

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