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Preparing for court in Birmingham***WON***


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Hi Everyone

 

Ahead of what happened yesterday, i'd like to ensure that i am 100% ready for my first claim if and when it gets to court. This is the first of many claims i have going through the court process for myself and family / friends and I can't afford to lose the fees we've paid already so i want to be sure that i am ready.

 

I am claiming (in Birmingham :eek:) against the HSBC for just over £1600 (inc interest and court fee). My N1 claim form was acknowledged on 31/03/07 and defended on 24/04/07. I returned my allocation questionnaire on 30/04/07 to the courts with the £100 fee. I am now waiting for whatever comes next.

 

With my AQ, i sent the draft order for directions, as featured on this website. This gives me 14 days from date of service (which i assume will be very soon) to provide

  1. A schedule setting out each charge repayment of which is sought, showing the date, amount and reason given (if any) for that charge being made;
  2. Copies of any statement or other document relied upon showing that each and every charge has been made
  3. A statment of evidence of all matters relied upon as tending to show that the charges are irrecoverable as penalties or otherwise
  4. Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon.

So, the first point i assume is just the schedule of charges that i have originally prepared and sent with all of my letters to the bank / solicitors.

 

The second - statments, i can provide.... do i need to provide anything.

 

The third and fourth i'm stuck on, so any advice would be greatly appreciated. Pretty much all of my charges are "total charges to (date)"".

 

Any advice would be massively appreciated :)

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here you go:

 

Also on the COURT side of things:

If the judge agrees with the draft order and makes it a direction, it will come back to you and you will have 14 days (the date will be on the paperwork) to send in four things.

a) your schedule of charges.

b) your statements showing the charges. Alternatively, the list of charges which the bank provided under your S.A.R (subject Access Request) (only send the statements with charges on them.)

c) A Statement of Evidence: (post 55 in the new strategy): New strategy for Allocation Questionaires

d) All the statutes and decided cases on which your claim relies. ie, UTCCR's, UCTA's, SOGA, case law, etc. For this, I'd just submit the whole of the Basic Court Bundle.

This whole thing runs to around 200 pages and should be done in triplicate: one copy for you, one for the court and one for dg – that’s 600 pages of copying – LEAVE IT UNTIL YOU KNOW FOR SURE YOU NEED IT. If an offer comes in from DG and is accepted you wouldn’t need it. Really leave it until you have to do it to meet the deadline set by the court!

 

it's in post one of my when you've filed your aq thread

and after yesterday - better put a terms and conditions booklet as number five.

 

have you seen this:

Lloyds victory in Birmingham - in perspective

Lloyds "Victory" - A View of the Judgement

We need your help folks! Re old T&Cs

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Lattie

 

Sorry to bother you - again!! I've just called the courts and they have now submitted their AQ and the claim has been passed for allocating so i think it's now time for me to get everything together

 

I opened my account in 1994, where would i get a copy of the terms and conditions from this point?

 

Thanks, advice is really appreciated.

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honestly - you don't need to start on it yet - better to send dg a nudge saying - i see you've sent in your aq - wouldn't it be better for the courts and everyone if we just resolve this now. there are examples on the two aq threads in my siggy - post 1 on each.

 

there was a big call for p eeps to send in t & c's following the lloyd's win - but i don't think the data base is up and running yet. so a little time may help there too.

 

by all means - have a look at the other stuff - (by the wayy - i've added now on the third point - the statement you want for hsbc is the first of the two on that link.

 

wait to see when your court date is and what directions you may get from the court - you'll always have at least two weeks to get the bundle together - and that's plenty of time.

 

look at all of it - but don't start copying - such a waste of time and resources! i'll keep looking for older t & c's for you this one for 04 is the oldest one i know of so far:

Attached Filespdf.gifpersonal_banking_terms.pdf (177.1 KB, 40 views)

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Hiya bex, you have a court date that’s the hammer DG wont face, know your worried about the Lloyds TSB result because it was Brum too but you have nothing to fear, Not only the dust still up in that case there are some big rocks yet to fall, would be a brave solicitor to believe the outcome so far proves anything.

As far as we are concerned its business as usual and from the offers people have received since the Lloyds case it is for DG too.

pete

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Thanks,

 

I just get a little nervous as this is the first claim i started so it's still new territory.

 

Thanks again, both of you

 

xx

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Everyone

 

Help me!!!!!!

 

I've received a general form of judgement or order from the courts today. It begins....

 

Before DISTRICT JUDGE COOKE sitting at Birmingham County Court....

 

Upon considering the matter for allocation purposes

 

IT IS ORDERED THAT

 

1. this case is allocated to the small claim track and listed for trial at birmingham civil justice centre on wednesday 27 june before district judge o'regan.

 

 

 

I'm worried because judge cook's name is mentioned, and wasn't he the one who threw out the lloyds tsb case?? Also, i haven't heard anything at all from dg sols. I sent them a nudging letter on 04/06 and have heard nothing since.

 

So is it time to get the court stuff ready?? i feel sick at the moment :(

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Keep cool. As far as I am aware the ltsb case was a one off that was ill prepared! Send dg a nudge every 10 days. Your case is going before judge o'regan not cooke. Does it say when you need to send in your paperwork? It is usually 14 days before but that would be tomorrow! what have you been told with regards to the documents you will rely on in court?

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hi

 

thanks for replying so quickly. i'll type what it says (sorry for long post)

 

4. any party may rely as evidence on a statement of case (if verified by a statment of truth). evidence of witnesses will be given in writing only, by way of sworn affidavit or witness statement verified by statement of truth

 

5. any wintess of evidence of documents to be relied on by the claimant must be filed at court and served on teh defendant not later than 21 days before the hearing. any witness eveidence or documents to be relied on by the defendant must be filed at court and served on the claimant not later than 7 days before the hearing

 

6. it will not be necessary for any part to file or exhibit a copy of the OFT report calculating fair default charges in credit card contracts' though it may be referred to in written evidence

 

7. each party must provide its documents and written evidence (including a copy of any statement of case relied on) in a single bound paginated bundle clearly marked on the front with the case nuber and names of the parties.

 

10. the claimant must, if he has not already done so, include in his bundle of douments a full list of the charges disputed, specifying the date and amount of each and the reason given for it.

 

11. if any party relies on written submissions or a skeleton argument it must be filed at court and served on the other party at least 2 days before the hearing

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Right then I'll be honest and tell you I have not seen these directions before. It looks to me that you need to get your docs in by 7 days before though.

You will need to send a private message to a mod if you want help now or you can wait until later when lat or pete are about to help.

Do you know how to send PM's?

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crusher is online now if you want to ask him to take a look at your thread

Send a private message to HSBCrusher

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It would make life much easier wouldn't it!:)

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did you just receive this from the court?

it would be pretty hard for you to get your info to dg 21 days before the 27 - as that would have been last week. if you've only just now received this - i'd ring the court first thing in the morning and say - how can i possibly get anything to the defendent 21 days before the 27th when i've only just received this. it is impossible - ring the court and ask them what deadlines you have to meet.

 

 

 

but - to be honest - i'd start getting your court bundle ready - start with my thread court bundles for dummies in my signature.

court bundles for dummies

 

 

i'm sure crusher will be along to help you shortly - but regarding these directions - i don't see how they can expect you to comply -

what is the date on them and when did you receive them - you'll want that info to speak to them tomorrow on the phone.

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Thanks hun, will start getting everything ready tomorrow.

 

Not sure if you seen my second post, but i have until 20th to submit to court & dg so i figure sending on 19th should be fine if rec del?? obviously a busy weekend for me now :(

 

was thinking about maybe faxing a nudge letter over to dg tomorrow? any oppinions or useful templates?

 

I feel a bit sick over it, i know the odds are in my favour but it's still unfamiliar territory iykwim, this is the first of many that i have going through.

 

Your help is as always massively appreciated.

 

xxx

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i just don't understand - in point 5 above (in post 9) it says anything the claimant (you) are relying on in court must be filed at the court and served to dg 21 days before the hearing - and anything they are relying on in court must be filed 7 days before the hearing.

so, if the hearing is on the 27th - then you stuff should have been in on the 6th and it is now the 14th. am i not getting this right? why do you say you have until the 20th?

when did you receive this letter?

i'm saying if you got it with little or no lead time - you should get in touch with the court pronto. if you've missed the date and you did have enough time - you need to take advisement from a moderator quickly.

 

 

it's all do-able -

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Hi

 

Sorry it was me getting confused.

 

I've just come off the phone to the courts and they say just to submit it as soon as possible, that i won't be penalised for it and they have to fit 60 cases for bank charges into a 2 hour period.

 

So i assume now i should start getting everything together ready to send asap. Which i'll start from your court thread for dummies below.

 

Should i send a nudge of some description to dg? maybe by fax today and enclosed with the court bundle??

 

I'm sorry for all the questions. Your help is massively appreciated.

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Hello again

 

I'm just preparing the statement of evidence and have a couple of q's if i may:

 

Point 7: "The Claimant further submits that the Defendant’s contention that the charges are now a legitimate service charge represents a contradiction to materials published by the bank previously."

 

I've not actually received anything from the bank or dg, apart from the very early we are looking into your claims letter. Do i just leave it to read as above and not enclose any examples?

 

It also asks that we include

  • Automated charge notification letter/s. Include a couple of examples. Preferably use ones where charges have been incurred over ridiculously small shortfalls and if possible, include 2 letters notifying of charges incurred on the same day

I don't have any of these?? at all. I didn't have my original statements and any charges were notified on these, they aren't mentioned on the duplicate statements as they appear to be a computer print off rather than an actual statement. Do i just delete this?

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I know they havent sent me the letters often but they still charge the fee, just state that no letters were generated by HSBC but you have still incured the penalty charge.

 

This makes it even cheaper for HSBC and even more outrageous they charge these fees.

 

pete

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7. The Claimant further submits that the Defendant’s contention that the charges are now a legitimate service charge represents a contradiction to materials published by the bank previously. HSBC have not generated any letters to notify the claimant of the fee, but the penalty charge was still incurred,

 

ok do you think?? really appreciate your help Pete

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Ok, i know i'm probably being a bit dense here, but i just can't get my head round this at the moment.

 

I've copied the statement of evidence from post 55 here as directed in the court bundles for dummies thread. But that thread recommends that we look at Nawanda's thread to compare.

 

I'm looking at post 38 from Gary is this what i should be using as the statment of evidence instead?? :confused:

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copy the statement of evidence from the new strategy post 55 - then look to nawanda's for help in making it personal -

nawanda's was slightly different as the court decided for whatever reason that her particulars of claim weren't up to scratch - so gary suggested she change the title of the statement of evidence and call it particulars of claim and submit it - as a very thorough particulars of claim and as such - the first couple of paras are a tad different. just use the soe as is - but make it personal to your case - like acct. no's, and amounts, etc.

the post 55 is the real deal. it just means point 7 on hers might not be point 7 on yours - but you can follow the changes.

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Thanks Lat,

 

Just sitting down to put everything together, a few more questions if i can

 

Referring to Nwanda's does this paragraph read right?

 

I understand the definition of 'breach of contract' to be the failure of a party, without legal excuse, to perform a contractually agreed obligation pursuant to any or all of the terms agreed within that contract. I have an overdraft with the defendant. This overdraft has a contractually agreed limit, which is an express term of the bank account contract between myself and the Defendant. When I exceeded this agreed overdraft limit, therefore breaching an express term of the contract between myself and the Defendant, I was consequentially penalised for each such breach by way of charges as advised. It is therefore impossible to envisage how the defendant can incur costs of between £10.00 and £72.00.At the end of my statment of evidence, as per post 55 i have attached the following

 

  • Midland Bank Terms & Conditions 1996 (from the hsbc t&c thread, my account was opened in oct 1994)
  • Relevant Law Case Summary
  • House of commons early day motion, May 2006
  • Dunlop vs New Garage
  • UTCCR 1999
  • SOGA 1982
  • Office of Fair Trading report, April 2006
  • House of commons early day motion, May 2006
  • BBC commission conclusion - BBC NEWS | Business | The Money Programme bank commission
  • Australian Default charges report, Nicole Rich ****the link for this site is telling me page not found, shall i just remove it completely or is there somewhere else i can get a copy****
  • Data Protection Act Subject Access Request for evidence of manual intervention ****do i need to insert this again as i have already enclosed it in my correspondence section****

So far, my pack consists of:

 

Description

Pages

Correspondence

19

Latest Schedule of Charges

1

Statements

36

Statement of Evidence

5

Midland Bank T&C 1994

25

Relevant Law Case Summary

2

Early Day Motion from the Houses of Parliament

2

Dunlop vs New Garage

2

UTCCR 1999

9

UCTA 1977

8

SOGA 1982

11

OFT Statement Summary

4

BBC Commission Conclusion

1

 

I haven't included any court paperwork is this right? i will reorder the list according to cornflake's table of contents once i've everything finalised.

 

Also your court bundle mentions the litigation spreadsheet - do i include a copy of this with my pack, for all settled hsbc claims?

 

I've used a t&c from midland bank from 1996 that i found on this site, would you recommend using the one listed in your court bundle for dummies section instead?

 

 

When i send this pack, am i right in thinking that i send 2 copies to the court and 1 copy to DG sols. I individually number each page, but what is single bound?? would a ring binder folder work for that?

 

Also, cornflakes post mentions an amended statement of claim?? what is that and do i need one?

 

thanks, and sorry for all the questions. i hope to get it sent off tomorrow in the hope that i get an offer by return.... too optimistic? :)

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