Lloyds victory in Birmingham - in perspective

[indebtstudent]

"There is no sustainable claim for causing loss or for breach of duty - the only sustainable claim is for breach of contract - thus no exemplary or aggravated damages are applicable," said the NatWest's barrister.

"The interests of the consumer will not be damaged if the case is struck out.

"The Office of Fair Trading has that role and its enquiry is underway to examine the issue Mr Brennan is vexed about," he concluded."

Is this Natwest's own legal represenative admitting that the charges are unlawful???

 

[Mistermind]

"There is no sustainable claim for causing loss or for breach of duty - the only sustainable claim is for breach of contract - thus no exemplary or aggravated damages are applicable,"

 

I think he meant the claim for "Causing loss or for breach of duty" was in his opinion not justified.

 

The claim for "Breach of contract" could be pursued, but even if proven, by law no exemplary or aggravated damages would be applicable.

[Falkirk1298]

Interestingly I've just been reading over a Bank of Scotland charge letter and it clearly states that the charges are "to cover our costs". It seems to me, therefor, that they would have a hard time employing the Berwick defence in the face of their own statement.

[Pliny the Penuriosus]

Interestingly I've just been reading over a Bank of Scotland charge letter and it clearly states that the charges are "to cover our costs". It seems to me, therefor, that they would have a hard time employing the Berwick defence in the face of their own statement.

 

Yes but does it qualify what costs?

[Mistermind]

Falkirk1298,

 

That to me looks like valuable evidence -- "to cover our costs" excludes making a profit. I think GaryH on his thread calling for T&C and documents would be very interested in getting his hands on this letter.

 

If they exclude making a profit, it implies they do not regard it as a service rendered to the customer. Nobody performs a commercial service at cost price.

[nevos]

Just subscribing...

[Pliny the Penuriosus]

Mister I don't think it's the 'smoking gun' we would all like to see but it together with all the other snippets of info being collected by the site might help prove their charges ARE penalty charges & not as they claim a service charge

[Falkirk1298]

Yes but does it qualify what costs?

 

This is what the relevant paragraph says:

 

"To cover our costs, we make a charge of £39 (maximum three charges per day) for any item we can't pay. We will take this money from your account seven days from the date of this letter. If this causes you to have an unauthorised overdraft, we will also charge you interest, at the unauthorised rate, and a monthly unauthorised overdraft fee of £28*. However, if your unauthorised overdraft is £30 or less the unauthorised overdraft charge will not be applied."

 

Note there's also a breach of section 5.5 of the banking Code in there, which states that:

 

"Before we take interest or charges for standard

account services from your current or savings

account, we will give you at least 14 days’ notice of

how much we will take."

[Mistermind]

Note there's also a breach of section 5.5 of the banking Code in there, which states that:

 

"Before we take interest or charges for standard

account services from your current or savings

account, we will give you at least 14 days’ notice of

how much we will take."

 

Prenotification of standard account services interest and charges was brought in industry-wide by government some years ago, the key word being "standard" (monthly charges and interest). Bouncing cheques would be deemed minority adhoc events.

[Pliny the Penuriosus]

This is what the relevant paragraph says:

 

"To cover our costs, we make a charge of £39 (maximum three charges per day) for any item we can't pay. We will take this money from your account seven days from the date of this letter. If this causes you to have an unauthorised overdraft, we will also charge you interest, at the unauthorised rate, and a monthly unauthorised overdraft fee of £28*. However, if your unauthorised overdraft is £30 or less the unauthorised overdraft charge will not be applied."

 

Note there's also a breach of section 5.5 of the banking Code in there, which states that:

 

"Before we take interest or charges for standard

account services from your current or savings

account, we will give you at least 14 days’ notice of

how much we will take."

 

This could well be part of the smoking gun.

 

Even at the most loose translation they appear to be admitting that their charge IS a penalty charge as it differs in application to their 'normal' charge.

 

I assume you have sent this to the MODS with a simular comment

[setmefree]

This is what the relevant paragraph says:

 

"To cover our costs, we make a charge of £39 (maximum three charges per day) for any item we can't pay. (We will take this money from your account seven days from the date of this letter). If this causes you to have an unauthorised overdraft, we will also charge you interest, at the unauthorised rate, and a monthly unauthorised overdraft fee of £28*. However, if your unauthorised overdraft is £30 or less the unauthorised overdraft charge will not be applied."

 

Note there's also a breach of section 5.5 of the banking Code in there, which states that:

 

"Before we take interest or charges for standard

account services from your current or savings

account, we will give you at least 14 days’ notice of

how much we will take."[/quote]

 

So what is 7 days or 14 days before they take their charge out of an account.

[setmefree]

Letter Reference: JD/HCALET5

 

9th May 2007

 

007478/0059/0370XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXDear XXX XXXXXXX

We are writing to make you aware that a transaction you have made has been returned unpaid. As a result you have incurred charges on your account. Details of the charge you have incurred are shown in the table below. As we have been unable to pay an item, you may want to contact the payee to make alternative arrangements.Transaction[ XXXXX] Amount[£50.00] Charge[FAILED ITEM £39.00] Charge AmountDate[16TH MAY 2007] this will be taken from your accountXXXXX XXXXX .

We will also charge you debit interest on any overdraft. The monthly unauthorised interest rate will apply to the amount which is in excess of your agreed overdraft limit.We would like to help you avoid incurring charges in future. To help you we offer a free online banking service that allows you to view up to date statements and balances of your account, make transfers to other accounts and much more. For full details of this service, log on to www.halifax.co.uk.If you would like to discuss your account, you can make an appointment by visiting any branch. Alternatively you can call our telephone banking service 24 hours a day. You will find the number at the top of this letter.Yours sincerelyPeter JacksonManaging DirectorBanking and Savings

[Mistermind]

Standard, normal, expected account charges and debit interest will be prenotified to you, then 14 days later debited on your account.

 

Nonstandard, abnormal, adhoc cheque bouncing charges will be prenotified to you, then 7 days later debited on your account.

 

The chances of this being contrary to banking laws would be small.

[setmefree]

(That's a fair point Mistermind),the actual debit was due to go out on the 9th may and take a look at the date of the letter.

do they employ people to watch accounts all day.

[Mistermind]

Everything is automated by IT. Most banks would know by 11pm the previous night what D/Ds will be bounced in the morning.

 

That's why it shouldn't cost £39. The charge of £3 in Dublin for exactly the same thing is more realistic. Natural competition and market forces ought to bring this price down in the UK but doesn't, which is why I suggest there is a price-fixing cartel of UK banks. Proving it is a different matter.

[Pliny the Penuriosus]

Standard, normal, expected account charges and debit interest will be prenotified to you, then 14 days later debited on your account.

 

Nonstandard, abnormal, adhoc cheque bouncing charges will be prenotified to you, then 7 days later debited on your account.

 

The chances of this being contrary to banking laws would be small.

 

True but they do appear to be treating one event different to another.

 

Also remember the banks say that if you contact them BEFORE going overdrawn they might be able to arrange an overdraft in order to avoid charges.

 

Now if that manual intervention does NOT attract extra charges then why if you don't request THEIR manual intervention are you charged?

 

It can only be a form of punishment for NOT following their rules

[TUTTSI]

I had a run in with Abbey on this very point, they confirmed to me in writing that they send the DD's at a minute past midnight and any money coming on the account on the same day by way of BACS receipts and cheques clearing on that ay are not updated and processed until after 9am, therefore if they there are no cleared funds at the minute past midnight and they cannot send a DD out they will bounce it and charge for that priviledge.

 

DS

[setmefree]

I had a run in with Abbey on this very point, they confirmed to me in writing that they send the DD's at a minute past midnight and any money coming on the account on the same day by way of BACS receipts and cheques clearing on that ay are not updated and processed until after 9am, therefore if they there are no cleared funds at the minute past midnight and they cannot send a DD out they will bounce it and charge for that priviledge.

 

Now that's interesting,Halifax sent me a letter last year stating that i could apply to have my loan taking out on the same date as my(BACS) wages went in, they also told me that all standing orders were either taking at 3am in the morning or at the end of the working.whils't direct debits may be different, it still leaves the question as to why one Bank clears BACS by 3am whilst yours states after 9am.

 

I think it could be worth you phoning the customers services at your Bank and asking them at what time someone's wages would show in an account. jst say you are thinking of opening an account.

[Mistermind]

 

Also remember the banks say that if you contact them BEFORE going overdrawn they might be able to arrange an overdraft in order to avoid charges.

 

Now if that manual intervention does NOT attract extra charges then why if you don't request THEIR manual intervention are you charged?

 

It can only be a form of punishment for NOT following their rules

 

Manual intervention to agree an overdraft setup or increase before the event DOES incur a standard Facility Fee, as high as £100 or £50. It also involves a formal contract by post, signed and returned.

[johnwilsonstorey]

Did anyone know that a Bank knows the day BEFORE what transactions are going to occour the following day.

Anyway the case of taking 5 days to clear a cheque is a myth as I can remember in my first job at Barclays back in 1964 it was possible even then in the days of snails post to clear a cheque overnight, and this was not 'specaling' it.

So a cheque could be paid in on Monday and cleared on Tuesday and that was before computers

[TUTTSI]

Now that's interesting,Halifax sent me a letter last year stating that i could apply to have my loan taking out on the same date as my(BACS) wages went in, they also told me that all standing orders were either taking at 3am in the morning or at the end of the working.whils't direct debits may be different, it still leaves the question as to why one Bank clears BACS by 3am whilst yours states after 9am.

 

I think it could be worth you phoning the customers services at your Bank and asking them at what time someone's wages would show in an account. jst say you are thinking of opening an account.

 

I did phone them and that was the outcome of my conversation with them on this very point. I this very day I had cleared funds sufficient to pay any DD's and did not expect them not to go through. Abbey, did however pay me compensation for this as it caused me a great deal of embarrasment with the DD not going through and especially when I had sufficient funds on that day. What happened to the the time when you could pay cash in at the branch anytime up to closing to meet any DD or cheques being presented that day.

 

This was my experience and I caught them out, I would imagine if I looked back at my bank statements where I had been charged whether this has been happening for a long long time!

DS

[johnwilsonstorey]

Quote

'What happened to the the time when you could pay cash in at the branch anytime up to closing to meet any DD or cheques being presented that day.'

Those times went away when Bankers stopped wearing bowler hats!

[TUTTSI]

Quote

'What happened to the the time when you could pay cash in at the branch anytime up to closing to meet any DD or cheques being presented that day.'

Those times went away when Bankers stopped wearing bowler hats!

Very funny, just shows how old I am then!

[AugAussie]

I have a question about the fees being disproportionate

If the fees are for a service is there anyone who could assertain if the price for the said fees has increase inline with cpi? if it indeed is a fee for service like dentist fees, then i would have thought the increase would be yearly or bi annualy inline with cpi.

Thoughts anyone?

[h1tm4n32]

hi, have been collecting information about this and i would like to say how i have done so far, i took copies of the tempelt letters off the internet,1st asking for my account statements, i then got these and in the mean time their had been more charges, i got my statements a couple of weeks later, i sat down and worked out what i was owed off Lloyds tsb, it was just over £630+ int why this as all been going on i opened a new account, which was a good job as i got a letter off Lloyds telling me they had closed my account, ok far enough, know i have got my statement and low and be hold its now gone up to just over £1,200 they have been charging me why my account as been closed, i got an offer from them last week offering me half, yea right i noticed what they had done doubled my account and offered me half so they get their money back, sent them a letter monday just gone and yesterday i got a cheque from Lloyds of £630 so now i am sending it back with the copy of my letter i sent on monday keep you all posted