Lloyds victory in Birmingham - in perspective

[Pliny the Penuriosus]

Have just watched BBC1 when their guy from Money Box stated that although very surprisingly this DJ had found in the banks favour it did NOT set a precedent He also said ANOTHER DJ who obviously new of DJ Cookes ruling still found for the claimant AGAINST the bank.

 

The guy was spot on & I shall be listening to Money Box on Radio 4 at 12noon today when it will again be spoken about

 

Perhaps the mods could use there powers to let everyone know about this

[Mistermind]

I have a court date on Thursday for which I already had an offer and declined as I am holding out for a bigger offer. I received a letter this morning from bank that they faxed to the court they are trying to consolidate all claims into 1 and change Thursday's court date. They are saying I didn't provide breakdowns of charges for the 2 small claims, this is untrue as they have had all the details. They are amending their defences for both claims and have enclosed a copy of Judge Cooke's approved judgement. I will be sending a full court bundle to both court and the solicitors on Monday but I am now quite worried about this and didn't do this before as the AQ was dispensed with.

 

Do I need to do more? Do I need a solicitor?

 

It appears you have been on CAG only since February 2007 and made only 5 posts, so may not be familiar with the standing invitation from Mods to get in touch if you wish before any actual court attendance. In this exceptional situation I would think the invite is more standing than ever.

 

Bankfodder's PM box is regularly overflowing, so I should immediately PM BF but in addition big gun GaryH. Also HSBCrusher etc and all Mods actively posting on this case.

 

Might be interesting to learn what are the similarities and differences between your case and Kevin Berwick's. Is yours against Lloyds TSB Bank (not card) too? Do you have T&C in black in white? Are you also reclaiming charges for cheques uncovered but honoured by the bank?

 

Does anybody have the URL for Berwick v Lloyds TSB Approved Judgment? in contrast to the 23-page Draft Judgment on http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/att...nt/Summary.pdf

 

 

Sticky: Calling All Lloyds TSB Account Holders..... **** ===Call for evidence===**** GaryH

 

Sticky: GOT A COURT DATE? Important, please read......

GaryH

[Mistermind]

Was the bank victory an accident?

 

 

By Ian Pollock

Personal finance reporter, BBC News

 

 

 

........

it seems to have come about by accident.

........

The Lloyds TSB headquarters only appeared to know of the case when informed by the BBC after the judgement was delivered.

 

The banks have been terrified of losing a case in court in case it set a legal precedent. Losing might have opened up the disagreeable prospect of paying hundreds of millions of pounds to other customers in similar circumstances. The Birmingham case does not in fact set a precedent, as it was decided by a district judge.

But even so it would have been very embarrassing to lose a case there.

 

So it hardly seems likely that one of the biggest, and most profitable, banks in the world would have willingly allowed a legal case to go ahead, with no one in court to argue its side.

Campaigners against bank charges have suggested that the banks are so swamped by claims that they, and the outside legal firms they employ, are in some cases simply losing track of the paperwork, and that this one slipped through.

 

Mr Berwick suggested in court that might have been the case with him. "He may be right in that," commented Judge Cooke.

 

What happens next?

 

Mr Berwick is pondering whether or not to appeal and has 14 days to make up his mind. If he does then the case might eventually go to a division of the High Court, and that is where things would really get interesting. Cases decided in the High Court do set a precedent for lower courts to follow. If Lloyds TSB lost there that would be most unfortunate - for it - but would almost certainly be pursued further up the legal food chain. Either way, Lloyds TSB may be feeling pleased with itself today - but that feeling may evaporate quite soon.

[dooley35]

I expect to get a date for my case against ltsb around the end of june.

I am very worried about this judgement, but will carry on with my claim.

I hope everyone continues to do the same . I am only claiming £600.

[TideTurner]

Interesting,

 

LTSB are now in a position where, if appealed, they risk a precedent being set.

 

Of course, they can always back down, but how many companies / individuals do so after receiving a judgement in their favour?

 

I always thought this must have been one that slipped through the net, and I'm sure, LTSB's legal team will be thinking long and hard about their position. No celebrations there.

 

In the interim, they will be communicating this "victory" surreptitiously to the ranks to boost moral.

 

Regarding the decision, with great power comes great responsibility. I have the utmost respect for Judges, and believe a decision on a financial claim does not compare with some of the more difficult decisions they face on a daily basis.

 

However, I cannot get a niggling thought out of the back of my head that this decision was not based solely on the facts and law, and included an element of emotion.

 

The Courts have been flooded with claims of this nature, which has had a serious impact on resource, which deflects their ability to deal with more serious matters. Is Judge Cooke fed up with dealing with these?

 

Having read the transcript, various articles, the case put forward by Kevin and Judge Cooke's delivery and the statutes, I have no doubt that this will be overturned on appeal, and focus placed on this case and Judge Cooke from all areas.

 

If the banks had any inkling of this result, they would have attended.

 

Nobody should be worried, except LTSB and Judge Cooke, who must be reflecting on how to react to a terrible decision.

 

Fix Bayonets.

 

Tide

[MadKit]

Thank you Mistermind, I've been around the site for quite a lot longer under another user name but haven't posted too much. I was really comfortable with going to court, wouldn't be the first time and I've always been successful. But I've not had the situation where a few days before court, they've submitted a completely changed defence and included this ruling. There is less than a week to the court date, are they allowed to do this?

[Mistermind]

Madkit, as I once read a Mod post, the Small Claims Court is concerned only with redistributing money, not to apportion blame. It seems there are unlimited postponements, AWOLs from trial hearings, setasides on demands, non-payments after ruling by the judge, etc etc. Catering to a range of litigants from barristers to barely literate laymen, court procedure appears to be flexible and tolerant. On one day 77 hearings were scheduled in one court, with not one case proceding to trial.

 

On Kevin's day 13th April 2007, ith the first hearing claimant Mr H did not bother to turn up, and his claim form did not bother to itemise the £247.50 charges claimed. In the second hearing Kevin turned up but not Lloyds, and the AWOL party won. With all these unexpected turnups it would seem prudent to have someone who knows more than appears the minimum necessary, in order to think and respond on the spot, with vigilance and eloquence.

 

There appears to be no such thing as Contempt of Court, and no porridge under any circumstances, so why should rich banks worry? If the court allowed a late change detailing completely new points of defence, I would say then there is no procedural problem, not that what is allowed is cast in stone, it seems the court and the judge will allow what they will allow, and tolerate what they will tolerate.

 

If you need additional time to prepare, presumably you could of course ask for a postponement until the best time to suit yourself.

 

It occurs to me the one-sided litigation shyness may have been blown away by this ruling unintentionally triggered by Lloyds, and banks (in contrast to cards) may no longer fight shy to face court -- in for a penny in for a pound. If banks lose they are likely to appeal all the way to the House of Lords to defend their billionpound per annum income stream. If claimants lose, who knows, CAG might be interested to appeal all the way even to the EC. All this could take 2, 3 years during which time claimants who need quick money may not get paid out at all? Unless they accept a reduced settlement offer.

 

Anyway, Tom Brennan on Monday. It's SHOWDOWN time on all fronts. Time will show -- who talks a good trial and who wins. Good luck to your own case, trust you will absorb all the best info and advice. Unfortunately I myself have no legal training. But I do not completely share the rah rah rah of the optimists.

[Kenny Haymes]

In today's Financial Mail (on Sunday) p.22, it is reported that in the Berwick -v- Lloyds TSB case, Mr.Berwick made his Claim/Application through a 'no win-no fee' claim firm, and apparently the same Judge has also written to this third party claims handler warning them that by completing legal forms on behalf of Berwick, it may have acted unlawfully as it was not a qualified solicitor ! (As only a 'qualified person' or the Claimant may sign such forms).

 

Which? urges all consumers to reclaim their own bank charges.

 

As has already been stated in other postings - 'complete and detailed preparation is paramount' !

 

Good luck !

[TUTTSI]

Hi everyone,

Someone here gave me a reputation comment ( but did not leave a name) thankyou - who ever you are.

DS

[sfk1980]

hello all,

 

This is my first time on this so im not sure how this works. Could someone please tell me what is needed in my bundle for the courts. Reading all the information from the experts, i didnt think my case would go to court, and now with mr Berwick losing, i need to prepare my case. I also have the same judge as mr berwick and im unsure on how to proceed?

 

any help will be appreciated.

 

Thank you

[Mistermind]

Lol, wave the white flag?

What is your court date? So much is going to happen so quickly between now and then, events will probably overtake your preparations.

[C&D]

Hi Pen. Which court is your claim being held at?

 

I am currently helping my Nan with her claim and I know that when it comes to her getting a court date, she will pull out!

 

What information do I need to prepare / obtain ready for when a date is set?

[sfk1980]

my court date is 19th june and i dont have anything prepared.

[MoneyKing]

Has anyone seen this?

 

BBC NEWS | Business | Crucial bank charges case resumes

 

I didnt know this was happening today, at is it in Hight Court?

 

This could be the day we all get what we want..........

[Kevboy_telford]

Monkeyking

its this one

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/80804-tom-brennan-natwest-must.html

 

He won't find out if he has won today - just if he is allowed to continue onwards and upwards

[paulwlton]

Has anyone seen this?

 

BBC NEWS | Business | Crucial bank charges case resumes

 

I didnt know this was happening today, at is it in Hight Court?

 

This could be the day we all get what we want..........

 

 

Fingers crossed.

[Mistermind]

BBC news updated at 15:09

 

Trial adjourned till tomorrow.

[Guest xipetotec46]

I have delayed sending my AQ until the end of this. I have until the 30th anyway.

[southyorksman]

I don't mean to be picky but the wording of the UTCCR non exhaustive list does not mention "breaches the contract" it actually says "fails in his/her obligations" doesn't it? This means whether the action constitutes an actual breach of contract or not is irrelevant as the wording is clearly obligations and I have a LLoyds TSB T&Cs with a section entitled "your obligations" I think this would satisfy that definition even in an American court with a wealthy famous defendant (probably;) ).

 

Am I wrong? (or just missing the point as usual)

[paulwlton]

Resumes Tuesday

 

 

BBC NEWS | Business | Bank charges court case adjourned

[Mistermind]

I have a LLoyds TSB T&Cs with a section entitled "your obligations"

 

Nobody else has mentioned that valuable word "obligations" before.

 

GaryH is urgently looking for such gold dust T&Cs, please respond on the thread he started. What date is your T&C?

 

Sticky: CALLING ALL LLOYDS TSB ACCOUNT HOLDERS..... **** ===Call for evidence===**** (1 2 3)

GaryH

[kiri260180]

I am in the process of claiming bank charges back from HSBC on behalf of my son and I do now feel discouraged about yesterday's victory for Lloyds.

 

It is taking alot longer than I thought - I first requested bank statements back in March and they were here within 3 weeks (they even returned the cheque for £10) so I thought that was a good start. But since then I don't seem to have got very far. After working out the charges of £1,439 plus interest of £317.92 I wrote again requesting a refund this time. I had a reply 2 weeks later from their Service Quality Team at their Leeds branch saying they were looking into the matters raised and they would contact me with a full response when they had completed their investigation (and enclosing their booklet called 'Listening to your comments'). Nothing received since in spite of a further reminder letter sent to them at the Leeds branch three weeks later threatening court action. I now don't know whether to send another letter (but to their Head Office) or to issue court documents to them through Money Claim Online. It costs £120 and I don't know now whether to risk it yet or not. Has anybody out there had any recent success reclaiming bank charges from HSBC and did it have to go to court?

 

I am exactly in the same position as you with HSBC started alomost the same time received exactly the same response or lack of and for almost exactly the same amount of money. I filed my claim at court on Friday but now I am really wondering if I have done the right thing?? I was not prepared to start collecting agreements and everything - I not sure how to prepare - can anybody give me any advice?? Kiri260180:confused:

[Mistermind]

With Brennan case resuming tomorrow and Berwick appeal possible in the wings, the legal outlook could change from day to day. With Lloyds having (by all accounts) accidentally triggered a court verdict, it is not known if banks and cards have stopped running.

 

Not clear if they are going to seek, not dodge, a court room showdown now, if so any claimant could unexpectedly run into a barrister ready for a fight.

 

If banks and cards lose they are likely to appeal all the way to the House of Lords, if they win CAG may appeal ditto. If so, not sure if judgments and hearings in Small Claims Court will be deferred. Anyone given a cash settlement offer in hand might like to consider, whether a 90% cash in hand offer could be better value than 100% later -- potentially 2 years later in the worst case scenario.

 

The case for reclaim against cards is certainly more straightforward than against banks, especially for that grey area where banks honour not bounce an unsupported cheque, accompanied by a charge. If one side says this was a penalty charge, the other side says it is a fee for a service. IMHO I would not go near that reclaim myself.

[angelcat]

In relation to courts ordering a stay in proceedings, I would like to bring my thread to your attention: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/92222-advice-wanted-lloyds-court.html. I am seeking advice on what to do in this situation, and if anyone else is in the same situation, the advice posted may be of help.

 

Thank you.

[paulwlton]

It seems Tom Brennan is having a tough time convincing the Judge.

 

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