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First victory to Lloyds


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I had to come out of my enforced rest for this one.

 

Read BankFodders thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/90426-lloyds-victory-birmingham.html#post825486

 

It just emphasises the point that good preperation is so important and if you are going to court there are people here that will help and even go with you. :-)

 

And so we continue...who's next?

 

:D

Guide to claiming back your bank charges

 

Most of your questions can be answered by following this link.

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that's the best news i've seen all day - gmmm is back!!!!!!!!

hurrah!!!!!!

take it easy, sweetie - don't want you straining yourself!!!

just glad you are back.

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The main argument the judge ruled, like Lloyds always state in their defence, is the claimant was not in breach of contract and if he was then he would have a case against the bank for excessive liquidated damages.

I thought the charges concerned were made due to reasons of going over the contractual limit. Therefore the charges were levied for breaching the contract. I think the claimant may not have had evidence to show this. The intent to charge for going over the limit is in the name ‘Overlimit Charge’, therefore if the bank states it is a service then they would be lying and therefore in contempt of court.

 

In part 36, the Judge hints that there must be a plausible reason to consider an action as a separate service from a contractual service for section 15 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 to apply. This is easy. In your particulars of claim put it to the bank to prove what service is being provided. Let me make it clear. They probably would not let this be known, but if they did they will state the charge is for administration costs for dealing with your over limit action. Isn’t going over your limit a contractual breach? Therefore not a service but a penalty.

 

Up until you go over the limit banks don’t charge for their basic banking services, so what changes. Going over your contractually agreed limit.

Under a contract, as the Judge states, all services could be deemed unreasonable if they differ from other services provided by other banks. Hang on Mr Judge, why do we have to compare the charges to other banks to deem them reasonable? If we don’t get charged for basic banking services then what changes to be lumbered with huge penalties. Going over the limit, and is it reasonable for a bank to make these huge charges when most services are free. Doesn’t the charge denote itself as being a penalty? Are the banks charging for free banking with these penalties? Of course they are and that is not reasonable as they don’t charge for basic banking and charge when you have overstepped your agreed limit.

 

The judge isn’t as clever as he makes out. The claimant could have been better prepared. BUT THIS IS A GOOD THING, because we know what to expect and we can deal with it as follows.

 

Put it to the bank to declare what service is being provided and why.

Put it to the bank to state what the contractual limit of the account is.

Put it to the bank to state what an over limit charge means.

Put it to the bank to declare the actual full costs of each charge.

Put it to the bank why the charge was made in the first place.

 

All this would damn any bank.

 

They will not supply this information so apply for a court order to force the bank to supply the evidence. Give full detailed reasons for your request to the District Judge.

 

In the Judges statement he mentioned that cases regarding credit cards are different as customers are under an obligation to make minimum payments and to ensure the total amount of purchases to the account does not exceed the limit, otherwise be in breach of contract. The charges we are talking about all refer to actions of exceeding our contractual limit. The judge has contradicted himself by stating the claimant had not breached his contract, mainly concentrating on the charges being a service, this also makes me assume the claimant did NOT supply evidence to show the charges as penalties or showed that the charges were added after exceeding his limit. Showing this on its own is a case winner.

 

I will finally add here a little something of my own to pressurise the banks in retaliation to today’s happenings. When making your Subject Access Request for the first time or second if you feel like spending a tenner (you can only do this after exactly 6 months of any previous request) then add the following to your request;

 

I also require a complete breakdown of each Late Payment fee and Over Limit fee charged to this account, or any similar related charges. The complete breakdown of each charge must contain the following:

 

 

Hourly rate of each member of staff involved with each administration of the fees / charges. The time each member of staff spent on the administration of the fees/charges. Details of the work carried out and completed by each member of staff involved with each administration of the fees/charges. Total cost of the paper, envelopes, ink, and postage of each automated and manually written letter relevant to the issuing of the fees/charges, and any other costs incurred in each fee/charge including other employee’s involvement, their hourly rate, time spent on the involvement, and what their involvement consisted of.

 

 

You can even add:

declare what service is being provided and why.

state what the contractual limit of the account is.

state what an over limit charge means.

declare the actual full costs of each charge.

why the charge was made in the first place.

 

If none of this information is provided and chances are they will not provide it as the evidence will be damning against them, then you can claim compensation under section 13 of the Data Protection Act 1998. Set the maximum value of your claim to £5000 (claim fee £120 and further Court Allocation Questionnaire fee of £100) and watch them squirm.

Best advice I can give is study every aspect, put in the work even if it means hundreds of pages of evidence to scrutinize and don’t give up.

 

 

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Now, I know why I couldn't get on the site this afternoon!

 

Oh well, have just sent my prelim letter off to Lloyds for overdraft charges etc and SAR to Barclaycard re their charges - will be interesting to see what, if anything, transpires over the next few days, weeks, etc with this.

"Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacturing, are afraid of something.

 

They know that there is a power somewhere so organised, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."

 

Woodrow Wilson, President of the United States.

Change the US for the U K... do you think he meant CAG?! :wink:

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i'm a bit naive - but do we song and dance everytime a claimant gets a judgment. if small claims can't set precedent - then this is just like the guy who got to send the bailiffs into his branch....... a one-off. each one will be done on it's merits - which means do it right, from the start.

the first fault i found in reading this guy's thread is that he claimed for all of the overdraft interest - you guys know i'd not have let him get away with that on this forum - i'm forever bleating on about not doing that.

what i'm saying is - until someone says differently: as far as i'm concerned it's business as usual. we've a couple with court bundles due in in the next couple of days and other deadlines - let's see how dg reacts in the next couple of days. i vote for doing everything by the book and just carry on - nudging, filing properly, laying out the charges in a well ordered fashion, etc.

i don't believe for one second that dg just threw their hands up in the air and went out to drink champagne - it was one judge (maybe he wanted his 15 minutes of fame and he's got it now), giving his opinion.

let's just get on with the business of reclaiming.

 

 

here here boss :)

DCA's - they have the same power as an infinite number of untrained chimps working on a script for Hamlet, but the chimps would probably at least get it right :D

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BF, your comments and points you raise seem well thought out and reasonable. Indeed if anything, I am more confident now that the Courts will look at 'the whole picture' rather than the written word of the contract when passing a judgement should this case go to appeal.

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Lloyds victory in Birmingham

 

Many cases have come before the courts in similar circumstances.

 

Is it possible to get links to cases that have appeared before a county judge with judgement going the claimants way?

 

If only journalists hadn't reported it as "the first time" people would not be so concerned now.

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Hundreds of CCJs already registered against Lloyds... many more settled without a fight.... Yet the media pick up on this as some kind of landmark.

 

I had the very same Lloyds template defence struck out as an abuse of process last week, but strangely that didn't make Radio 1 news...

 

 

--

Just Because I'm Paranoid, Doesn't Mean People Aren't Out to Get Me

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Hi guys I`m new this and deperately need some advice.

I am at the stage where the bank (lloyds) have acknowledged my claim.

I must say that reading about lloyds being the first bank to win has dampened my spirits slightly.

anyway ive noticed that in the 'Particulars Of claim' section most people seem to be taken templates from these forums with all the legal jargon.

 

wheres I simply cobbled together the following 'I wish to claim mlonies from lloyds TSB.i feel that i have been charged excessively over the past year and a half.i have two accounts with Lloyds.my bank charges have totalled £1195 pound and with interest,£1235 pounds.i feel that these charges are illegal.The bank cannot justify that their charges are fair for the amount of work they are required to do when a cheque is not honoured or a direct debit exceeds an overdraft limit'

 

What do you guys reckon, is this particulars part increibly important??

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Hi Peeps

 

 

 

I currently have an offer from DG I sent back my Acceptance (template form the site) should have arrived with them last Wednesday no payment as yet

 

Do you think the banks solicitors will renege on current offers of settlement. given todays news?

 

 

 

 

Oyster

If i've been helpful in any way....then tip my scales over there!

MCOL Filed 26th Feb 07

:-)

Defended 26th March 07:rolleyes:

PRT @ Cambridge 13th July 07:wink:

1st May Full Offer:grin:

Cheque arrived 16th May8)

 

 

 

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No.

Please remember to DONATE! Help CAG keep up the fight!

 

 

Any advice or opinion is offered informally & without liability. Use your own judgment and if in doubt seek advice of a qualified and insured professional.

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The thing people need to remember (and having finally read through this thread in full it seems a lot of people are panicking) is that this is merely one judges opinion in one court.

 

At the same time this was happening I (and I'm sure many other people) obtained a judgement against lloyds TSB (or any other bank). In a different court before a different judge. In the county court no case sets any precedent for another case

 

HOWEVER, it seems to me that this case will present a wonderful opportunity. Should Kev decide to appeal, and I hope he does, it will be done in the high court. The outcome of this appeal in the High Court can set a precedent for other cases in the county court. We have been after a test case for so long and this could well be it. I know from reading this and Kev's thread that if he appeals he will have a lot of backing both in spirit, in legal assistance and financially (my judgement was only for £200 though if I can help I will as I have been opposed to these charges for a very long time). Though this seems a loss, should the appeal win it will be a HUGE victory not just for people fighting Lloyds but people fighting any bank, and possibly indeed any form of penalty charging regime.

 

Whether Lloyds will allow this case to reach the high court and set a precedent is unknown. Given this cases publicity and backing though it could be self defeating if they were to back down as it would be taken as admission of guilt regardless of if they made such admission or made a settlement without liability.

 

Whatever happens things are about to get very interesting and it's important that we press on, recover from this setback and make it into the test case we all want.

 

My 2 cents anyway

All my posts are made without prejudice and may not be reused or reproduced without my express permission (or the permission of the forums owners)!

 

17/10/2006 Recieve claim against me from lloyds TSB for £312.82

18/10/06 S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) sent

03/02/07 Claim allocated to small claims. Hearing set for 15/05/07. Lloyds ordered to file statement setting out how they calculate their charges

15/05/07 Lloyds do not attend. Judgement ordered for £192 approx, £3 travel costs and removal of default notice

29/05/07 4pm Lloyds deadline for payment of CCJ expires. Warrant of execution ready to go

19/06/07 Letter from court stating Lloyds have made a cheque payment to court

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Interesting, I sent my court bundle in last week on the deadline, and im in court next week. Natwest (Cobbetts) have not sent me their bundle and when I called them yesterday they appeared not to know about our court date next week!

 

Any ideas what I should do?

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Germany

I like your idea regards the enhanced SAR request....

 

Unfortunately an SAR only covers Personal data, the information your are requesting in your revised version would be considered as commercially sensitive data, and they would be within their rights to refuse to provide it under an SAR.

The only way to acquire this info, would be if it was ordered by a court.

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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If the personal information is for a specific purpose for say 'providing evidence in court that the defendant has unlawfull administered penalty charges' the judge could rule in favour of the release of information. A friend of mine has added the run down of costs to their S.A.R so it will be interesting to see what happens.

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anyway i think it's a load of cods sorry, my 3 claims are going ahead, and if they come unstuck it's my own fault, no one else to blame maybe lose 80 quid maybe gain £ 460 who knows?

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Germany/Nice,

 

You could refer to any 'Terms & Conditions concerning my personal contract with the bank in force at the time pertaining to the account'.

 

Just thought this would be personal data would it not?

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lol :)

 

Just had a proper read through of the approved Judgement in that case - how the zarking fardwarking **** can the Judge say that there is no ground in law???? I mean with all respect to the Judge, he's a damn sight more educated than what I is like, but to say that the bank is allowed to make a "reasonable" profit on the charges as well? I can only assume he's been on a two year sabbatical in Outer Mongolia or somewhere similair.

 

In the Haughton case, fair comment, the guy was sloppy and deserved to have it booted out. Sorry if that upsets anyone but it's my honest opinion.

 

In Berwick's case, how can the Judge say that Berwick was NOT in breach of contract and that the charges are NOT penalties? I'm at a loss here.

DCA's - they have the same power as an infinite number of untrained chimps working on a script for Hamlet, but the chimps would probably at least get it right :D

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