NAT WEST will not return my PPI

[Maggiebroom]

No reply to my letter yet just another statement with arrears needed to be paid immediately.

 

Daft lot. I am sure these departments do not communicate with each other. And yes - they are still adding "card protection" on to the payments.

 

I am sick of being taken for a mug, and will fight this all the way to the end now.

 

maggiebroom

[BaldyBaldwin]

tagging on

best of luck BB

[Maggiebroom]

Hi again all

 

Today I recieved this reply to my letter sent to Nat West (see post #48 )above

 

Dear Mrs maggiebroom,

re account no: 00000000000000000

 

Thank you for your letter dated 7th july 2007

 

Regarding your recent letter concerning the Banks alleged breach of the CCA Act, I would advise you of the following.

 

Any request for a copy of an executed agreement under s78(1), states that the company must meet it's statuary requirements by providing a 'true copy' of the agreement relevant to the card product at the date the card agreement was made and providing that plus a copy of the current terms of the card product. These copies must be accompanied by the statement of financial information relevant to the account - the state of the account, amount currently due and due dates of future payments that will be required to be made.

 

The provision of the 'true copy' in this form is made in reliance of Regulations 3(2) and 7(1)(b) of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983. Particularly 3(2) which permits the copy agreement not to show signatures or personal details that may have appeared on the application part of the document.(aren't the 1983 part of the regulations superseded by the 2004 amendments??) There is no statuary requirement under the Act for us to ever give a copy to a customer with a signature on it. (Surely this can't be right??)

As we have supplied a copy of the application form that you signed, copy of the Terms ans conditions of the card product, a most recent statement showing the outstanding balance and advised you who to contact to discuss amounts due and owing, and future payments that must be made. We have therefore met our obligations under s78(1) to provide a copy of that executed agreement and again we are satisfied that what was provided complied with the Regulations expressly made for what is a 'true copy'. We suggest that you take advice from your local Citizen's Advice Bureau ( patronising B****** ) or other similar organisation (such as the Consumer action group:D) if you continue to doubt the veracity of what we have told you about our having complied with our obligations under s78(1).

 

We consider that our processing of your personal date is fair, lawful and warranted in the circumstances. Details of these procedures were contained in the credit agreement/application form you would have signed in June 2000 when you applied for the card (after which the card was issued to you) and amended versions that accompanied subsequent Notice of Variations (which will have been sent to you when your card was in use and you didn't, at any time, signify your refusal to consent by repaying the debt and terminating the agreement), and have been notified to the Information Commissioners Office. We are satisfied that information of your account was properly notified to the Credit Reference Agencies and you would have recieved the appropriate Data Protection Act notifications on the reporting of defaults. If you disagree, you have the right to apply to the court to have innacurate perrsoanl data rectified, blocked, erased or destroyed. Further information is available from the Information Commissioners website: www Information Commissioners Office.gov.uk. (Surely if the account is in dispute they cannot claim or do this?)

 

I would inform you that, given the processing of your personal data was consented by you (in the way described above), you cannot retrospectively withdraw your consent after the processing was carried out. We do not accept your notice under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act 1998 and do not intend to comply with it.

 

I must therefore inform you that we see no reason to enter into further correspondence with you about the alleged CCA and Data Protection Act breaches you lay at our door. If you are not satisfied with this final response, you may seek whatever legal redress you consider is open to you or you may refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service within six months of the date of this letter. I enclose a copy of the Financial Ombudsman's Leaflet. which explains the scope of the service and how a referral can be made.

 

Your indebtedness on this account remains due and payable and we will be pursuing for the full repayment.

 

I trust this clarifys matters for you.

 

Yours sincerely (are they kidding?)

 

Blue lettering is their actual wording. The red comments are my own.

I would welcome anyones thoughts on this. I have no idea how to respond or what to do next. I really think they are trying to blind me with science, so to speak.

I must admit it does worry me a bit, and I would be interested if anyone can supply a copy of the 1983 regulations as I can't trace one on line. Particularly the sections they are referring to.

 

Anyone Please?

 

maggiebroom

 

 

[hellhasnofury]

Hi again all

 

Today I recieved this reply to my letter sent to Nat West (see post #48 )above

 

Dear Mrs maggiebroom,

re account no: 00000000000000000

 

Thank you for your letter dated 7th july 2007

 

Regarding your recent letter concerning the Banks alleged breach of the CCA Act, I would advise you of the following.

 

Any request for a copy of an executed agreement under s78(1), states that the company must meet it's statuary requirements by providing a 'true copy' of the agreement relevant to the card product at the date the card agreement was made and providing that plus a copy of the current terms of the card product. These copies must be accompanied by the statement of financial information relevant to the account - the state of the account, amount currently due and due dates of future payments that will be required to be made.

 

The provision of the 'true copy' in this form is made in reliance of Regulations 3(2) and 7(1)(b) of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983. Particularly 3(2) which permits the copy agreement not to show signatures or personal details that may have appeared on the application part of the document.(aren't the 1983 part of the regulations superseded by the 2004 amendments??) There is no statuary requirement under the Act for us to ever give a copy to a customer with a signature on it. (Surely this can't be right??)

 

As we have supplied a copy of the application form that you signed, copy of the Terms ans conditions of the card product, a most recent statement showing the outstanding balance and advised you who to contact to discuss amounts due and owing, and future payments that must be made. We have therefore met our obligations under s78(1) to provide a copy of that executed agreement and again we are satisfied that what was provided complied with the Regulations expressly made for what is a 'true copy'. We suggest that you take advice from your local Citizen's Advice Bureau ( patronising B****** ) or other similar organisation (such as the Consumer action group:D) if you continue to doubt the veracity of what we have told you about our having complied with our obligations under s78(1).

 

We consider that our processing of your personal date is fair, lawful and warranted in the circumstances. Details of these procedures were contained in the credit agreement/application form you would have signed in June 2000 when you applied for the card (after which the card was issued to you) and amended versions that accompanied subsequent Notice of Variations (which will have been sent to you when your card was in use and you didn't, at any time, signify your refusal to consent by repaying the debt and terminating the agreement), and have been notified to the Information Commissioners Office. We are satisfied that information of your account was properly notified to the Credit Reference Agencies and you would have recieved the appropriate Data Protection Act notifications on the reporting of defaults. If you disagree, you have the right to apply to the court to have innacurate perrsoanl data rectified, blocked, erased or destroyed. Further information is available from the Information Commissioners website: www Information Commissioners Office.gov.uk. (Surely if the account is in dispute they cannot claim or do this?)

 

I would inform you that, given the processing of your personal data was consented by you (in the way described above), you cannot retrospectively withdraw your consent after the processing was carried out. We do not accept your notice under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act 1998 and do not intend to comply with it.

 

I must therefore inform you that we see no reason to enter into further correspondence with you about the alleged CCA and Data Protection Act breaches you lay at our door. If you are not satisfied with this final response, you may seek whatever legal redress you consider is open to you or you may refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service within six months of the date of this letter. I enclose a copy of the Financial Ombudsman's Leaflet. which explains the scope of the service and how a referral can be made.

 

Your indebtedness on this account remains due and payable and we will be pursuing for the full repayment.

 

I trust this clarifys matters for you.

 

Yours sincerely (are they kidding?)

 

Blue lettering is their actual wording. The red comments are my own.

I would welcome anyones thoughts on this. I have no idea how to respond or what to do next. I really think they are trying to blind me with science, so to speak.

I must admit it does worry me a bit, and I would be interested if anyone can supply a copy of the 1983 regulations as I can't trace one on line. Particularly the sections they are referring to.

 

Anyone Please?

 

maggiebroom

 

 

 

Hello Maggie,

 

please post this letter on this thread, there are a few experts on there that are terribly knowledgeable re the cca.

 

I would also be very interested in their comments,

[Maggiebroom]

Hi hellhasnofury

 

I think its my turn to be thick.

 

What do you mean by post on this thread??

 

The thing is they haven't answered any of the points of my letter, but have just quoted irrelevant facts.

 

I too would be very interested in ANY comments

 

maggiebroom

[hellhasnofury]

Hi hellhasnofury

 

I think its my turn to be thick.

 

What do you mean by post on this thread??

 

The thing is they haven't answered any of the points of my letter, but have just quoted irrelevant facts.

 

I too would be very interested in ANY comments

 

maggiebroom

 

Hiya Maggie

 

Sorry Maggie it was my turn to be dense I think, I forgot to link the the relevant thread

Will get back with it soon.

[BaldyBaldwin]

“(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner.”

hope this helps

BB

[BaldyBaldwin]

having read though your thread, IMHO, i think there letter is a bit of a bluff and what they are really saying is that they cant supply you with a signed copy Cos, they dont have one

[hellhasnofury]

Hello Maggie, here it is

 

Consumer Credit Act Agreements

 

Cut and paste your letter and their response for opinions on this thread

[Maggiebroom]

Hi Hellhasnofury

 

I have put the letter on the CCA Thread (406 pages long or something phew!!), so

hopefully somone will have a good answer for us.

 

Beggars belief though doesn't it. Lets wait and see what our resident experts say.

 

maggiebroom

[Maggiebroom]

having read though your thread, IMHO, i think there letter is a bit of a bluff and what they are really saying is that they cant supply you with a signed copy Cos, they dont have one

 

Hi baldy Baldwin

 

I agree - I think they are bluffing, but if I go back with a clever reply, what happens if they don't continue the correspondence as they have threatened?? Am I stuck in the middle without a paddle so to speak? interesting though isn't it.

 

 

 

maggiebroom

[Maggiebroom]

PPS

 

Can anyone supply the relevant sections they are quoting from the Consumer Credit (Cancellation and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983?

 

It would be very interesting to see how it differs from the CCA Act 1974.

 

maggiebroom

[Maggiebroom]

Hi All Urgent advice or comments needed for above post and also post #53

 

can anyone oblige?? Thanks in advance

 

Maggiebroom

[Scorpius]

Just wondering, because I can't see it mentioned in the threat - you have cancelled your PPI haven't you?

Scorpius

[Maggiebroom]

I have that Scorpius

Now I want back all that I have paid in since I became ineligible to claim

That was 2003 when I became unemployed through retirement.

 

Sneaky sods didn't stop taking it though I couldn't have claimed after 2003 anyway.

 

maggiebroom

[Maggiebroom]

Yesterday I went to my local library and looked up the 1983 Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations, particularly The sections Nat West have quoted in the above letter (see post #53) please.

This is the quote of the sections.

 

General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

 

3.-- (1) Subject to the following provisions of these regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security intstrument or other document reffered to in the Act and delivered or sent to a Debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

 

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy -

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instruction, or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or Regulation thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

 

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of the signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

© in the case of a copy of the unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or the hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and adress of the debtor or hirer; and

 

(d) in the case of any copy given to the debtor under section 77(1) of the Act of an executed agreement for fixed sum credit under which a person takes any article in pawn, any description of the article taken in pawn.

 

Copies of agreements or security instruments where the agreement or security instrument has been varied

7. (1) Where an agreement has been varied in sccordance with section 82(1) of the Act, every copy of the executed agreement given to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act other than section 85(1) shall include either --

 

(a) an easily legible copy of the latest notice of variation given in accordance with section 82(1) of the Act relating to each discrete term of the agreement has been varied; or

 

(b) an easily legible statement of the terms of the agreement as varied in accordance with section 82(1) of the Act.

Could someone please have a look at this for me and if possible explain to me what it means in plain English so that I can understand and compose my reply to Nat West.

 

So far I cannot get any response to the letter, from Caggers, even transferring it to the CCA thread did not get any response, so I am desparate to get some sort of advice on this. I need to know what to reply to these quotes. I am sure they can't be correct, in my case. However..... I am not a lawyer.

 

Many Many thanks in advance

 

maggiebroom

[hellhasnofury]

Yesterday I went to my local library and looked up the 1983 Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations, particularly The sections Nat West have quoted in the above letter (see post #53) please.

 

This is the quote of the sections.

 

General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

 

3.-- (1) Subject to the following provisions of these regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security intstrument or other document reffered to in the Act and delivered or sent to a Debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

 

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy -

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instruction, or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or Regulation thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

 

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of the signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

© in the case of a copy of the unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or the hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and adress of the debtor or hirer; and

 

(d) in the case of any copy given to the debtor under section 77(1) of the Act of an executed agreement for fixed sum credit under which a person takes any article in pawn, any description of the article taken in pawn.

 

Copies of agreements or security instruments where the agreement or security instrument has been varied

 

7. (1) Where an agreement has been varied in sccordance with section 82(1) of the Act, every copy of the executed agreement given to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act other than section 85(1) shall include either --

 

(a) an easily legible copy of the latest notice of variation given in accordance with section 82(1) of the Act relating to each discrete term of the agreement has been varied; or

 

(b) an easily legible statement of the terms of the agreement as varied in accordance with section 82(1) of the Act.

 

Could someoneplease have a look at this for me and if possible explain to me what it means in plain English so that I can understand and compose my reply to Nat West.

 

So far I cannot get any response to the letter, from Caggers, even transferring it to the CCA thread did not get any response, so I am desparate to get some sort of advice on this. I need to know what to reply to these quotes. I am sure they can't be correct, in my case. However..... I am not a lawyer.

 

Many Many thanks in advance

 

maggiebroom

 

Hello Maggie,

 

I think maybe your post got a bit overlooked on the cca thread. Somebody will be able to help with this, I do think they are calling the bluff at bit, but alas like yourself I am no lawyer. Will bump up the thread on cca thread and send a few pm's for you:-D

[Maggiebroom]

Thanks hell

 

Take no notice of me. For some reason I have the blues today. I think it is wondering how I can beat Nat West that is doing it.

 

Perhaps someone will answer now.

 

I always have you though and very grateful I am too.

 

maggiebroom

[hellhasnofury]

Thanks hell

 

Take no notice of me. For some reason I have the blues today. I think it is wondering how I can beat Nat West that is doing it.

 

Perhaps someone will answer now.

 

I always have you though and very grateful I am too.

 

maggiebroom

 

Sorry you have the blues today, but come on, we will get there, this is a great site, we just have to be patient. We will get the expert advice and then through it straight back at them.

 

This process is at time disheartening, but lets look at the bigger picture, success will come:-D

[paulwlton]

PPS

 

Can anyone supply the relevant sections they are quoting from the Consumer Credit (Cancellation and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983?

 

It would be very interesting to see how it differs from the CCA Act 1974.

 

maggiebroom

 

The 1983 Regs do allow the creditor to ommit personal information and signatures.

 

Paul

[paulwlton]

PPS

 

Can anyone supply the relevant sections they are quoting from the Consumer Credit (Cancellation and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983?

 

It would be very interesting to see how it differs from the CCA Act 1974.

 

maggiebroom

 

The 1983 Regs do allow the creditor to ommit personal information and signatures.

 

Paul

[Maggiebroom]

The 1983 Regs do allow the creditor to ommit personal information and signatures.

 

Paul

 

 

Thanks for your reply Paul.

However my arguement is that they have not supplied any of the financial prescribed terms. I have no problem with the signatures, but nothing else is on the paper which states at the top that it is an APPLICATION FORM

 

Does this make a difference to the 1983 regs. I am confused now, which is why I am seeking advice or opinions from other Caggers.

 

maggiebroom

[Maggiebroom]

The 1983 Regs do allow the creditor to ommit personal information and signatures.

 

Paul

 

Have a look at post #44 which has a copy of the agreement/application form Nat West sent me and see what you think Paul

 

Maggiebroom

[paulwlton]

Have a look at post #44 which has a copy of the agreement/application form Nat West sent me and see what you think Paul

 

Maggiebroom

 

Peterbard will be usefull to contact.

 

Paul

[Peterbard]

Dear

 

HI

 

I hope the letter below may be off some use.

Regarding the issue of what a true copy means i have copied a response from the DTI on that matter from i letter is sent a little while ago you may want to enlighten them by including a bit of the contents in the letter.I have highlighted the relevant bits.

 

Thank you for your letter dated ******** in response to the queries I had about the response to my earlier request made under section 78 of the consumer credit act.

 

I am afraid that you still have not supplied the information requested in said act and there fore are still in default.

 

The request is for post contractual information as regulated by section 180 of the act the regulation you speak of is contained within Statutory Instruments 1983/1557 which reads:

General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

3.-(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instru­ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations there under as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

 

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

As you can see the only omission allowed by this regulation is the signature box of the Debtor/ Hirer, all other aspects of form and content including prescribed terms,cancellation details etc. are required in order to fill the requirements’ of a true copy.

 

 

Regarding the enforceability issue due to incorrect pre-contractual form and content:

 

As per section 127(3) of the act the minimum requirement for a court to consider enforcing a agreement of this type(Running account Credit) is that it should have the Debtor/ Hirer’s signature and all the prescribed terms contained in Statutory instruments 1983/1553 Schedule 6; As directed by section 60 of the Act

• Credit limit• Rate of interest • Repayments

If any of these items are missing then a court cannot enforce any agreement made and regulated by the Act prior to April 6th 2007.T

The absence of all other aspects of the agreement relating to form and content as defined in the Agreement Regulations (1983/1553) render the contract enforceable only by order of the court.

Optional (I remind you that you are in now in default and any interest that has been charged to this account during this period will be void .If it has as been more that 42 days since my initial request you are guilty of an offence which shall be reported to the OFT for possible action that may involve litigation or review of your licence to offer credit)

 

Yours etc

 

dti

 

21 December 2006

 

Re consumer credit act 1974

 

Thank you for your letter of the 7th of December on behalf of your constituent Mr Peter Bardsley of******************* about a possible irregularity in the Consumer Credit act 1974.

 

The Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations apply to all the situations that ate listed in the Schedule to the Regulations and this include Sections 77 and 78 of the Act, which are about copies of the executed agreement and not pre contractual information

 

The Cancellation Notices and copies of Documents Regulations are made under Section 180 of the Act ) power to prescribe the form etc of documents) and Section 180 enables Regulations to be made to provide for including/excluding certain information from copies sent out under the Act. The Regulations apply to all copies sent our under the Act unless specifically excluded in the Regulations themselves.

 

Mr Bardsley describes a situation in which he was sent a copy of a company’s standard Terms and Conditions when requesting a copy of a signed agreement form. Just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement**

 

If Mr Bardsley feels that the rules are being flouted he should report the companies concerned to Trading standards and the Office of Fair Trading. It is also a breach of the Act and the Regulations to send the application form rather that a “true copy” of the Agreement.

On the point that Mr Bardsley makes about unscrupulous companies adjusting agreements, If there were a dispute about an agreement, the lender would need to prove to a court that there was an agreement and, it is highly likely that the lender would have to produce the original signed document to prove they had and agreement with the consumer to start with,

The lender should need to prove to a court that there was and agreement **and, it is highly likely that the lender would have to produce the original signed document to prove they had an agreement with the consumer to start with. If the lender can’t prove the existence of the agreement, winning any court case would prove difficult.

 

 

Approved By the Minister and signed in His presence

 

Pp Ian Mc Cartney

If you need any more information i will be pleased to do all i can please PM me

 

Best regards

 

Peter