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Hi, I'm new to this site but have used some of the Templates to get where I am. I have sent print out of all bank statements showing illegal charges, and followed up with a "Letter before Action" before using Moneyclaim on line. I have now filed for Court Action and have now received a 5 point defence fron NWB which I summarise:


1. Defence is filed and served without prejudice to either party having right to strike out claim.


2. Long wording to say they will not pay anything older than six years.


Paras 3 - 5 are the most interesting and I quote them in full:-


3. The Defendant is embarrassed by the lack of particularity pleaded in the Particulars of Claim to the extent that the Particulars of Claim fail to disclose reasonable grounds for bringing a claim against the Defendant. In particular the Particulars of Claim do not disclose any legally recognisable claim against the Defendant.


4. The Defendant invites the Claimant to remedy the above. In the event that the Claimant fails to do so within 14 days of the service of the Defence then the Defendant will apply to the Court for an Order striking out the Particulars of Claim.


5. The Defendant reserves the right to plead further to the Particulars of Claim once and if the Claimant properly particularises the same. In the meantime, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief whether as pleaded or at all.


Any suggestions, experience on dealing with this. I have 12 days left to respond. As far as particularity is concerned how much more detail to they need - I have send bank statement copies for all charges involved (some £1100) and totalled them, plus added interest using the calculator. I assume the pertinent legislation to use in answering Q4, ie reasonable grounds for the claim, is Common Law and the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. I'm sure their replies are fairly standard, so who has experience or knowledge here?

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Hi Michael,


Apart from summarising the first two points, that is the defence.


My claim letter read as follows:-


Dear Sir/Madam



Re: A/C No: xxxxxxxx Sort Code xxxxxxxxx Name



Due to recent media coverage on bank charges I now believe that you, NatWest Bank have been charging me charges that are contrary to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. Schedule 2 (e) of the said regulations gives a non-complete list of terms, which may be regarded as unfair, such as a term that requires me as a consumer who fails in his obligation, to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation.


I believe that your charges are disproportionately high and therefore they are contrary to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Regulations 1999. In addition I believe that your charges are a Penalty. Penalty charges are irrecoverable at common law. The precedent for this was Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v New Garage and Motor co Ltd [1915] AC 79 along with Murray v. Leisure play [2005] EWCA Civ 963. It was held that a contractual party can only recover damages for an actual loss or liquidated losses. It is clear that your charges do not reflect any actual and or real loss.


Furthermore if you fail to comply with this letter, I request without further notice a breakdown and proof of all costs involved, in regards to your actual or liquidated losses involved in any breach of contract to which these charges relate with yourselves, and that these charges reflect your true costs in relation to the said charges, and are proportionate to the charges levied on my account as defined in Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. Schedule 2 (e).


Attachment A shows all the charges involved, and this is supported by copies of the statement entries. I therefore require you to refund me a total of £997.00, representing the total, unlawful amount charged during the last 6 years, plus as I believe I have been unlawfully deprived of the money I have calculated £170.03 interest at the statutory rate, the amount the court will award. The total claim being £1,167.03. Repayment of these unlawful charges, which have been a significant contributor to my recent money difficulties since having a baby, will allow me to return to a balance in credit.


I hereby give you 14 days to refund the charges back on to my account. For the avoidance of doubt, if this is not done within 14 days, I will commence my claim in the courts without further warning. This action will inevitably involve you in additional costs.


I also hereby request a detailed report of which clause in your terms and conditions each charge has been applied against.


I followed this up with a Letter before Action and then took them to court.


What do you think?

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Dis you use the template particulars of claim from this site?


The court will send you an allocation questionnaire which you should complete using the standard wording in our library. You shouldn't be overly concerned by Nat West's defence. It's designed to try and make you doubt whether you have put your claim in properly and to try to make you go away. Don't- they will pay up.

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No, I didn't because I didn't know of it at the time. My POC said as follows:-


"My bank has levied illegal charges to my account over the past 5 years of £1091.00. I have written a letter dated 22/2/07 detailing these charges and requesting their refund gving them 14 days. I have received neither acknowledgement nor reply. I subsequently sent them a letter before action on 22/3/07 restating my claim and warning of court action. I gave them 7 days, but again no reply. With interest of £170.03 advised to them, plus a further charge they have made on 28/3/07 my total claim is now £1261.03. The claimant claims interest under section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% a year and from 9/12/2002 to 28/3/07 of £170.03and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgement or earlier payment at a daily rate of 8% pa pro rata."


Thanks for your advice so far. How does this POC stack up, and how do I correct any shortcomings? I have sent copy statements to Natwest along with a summarising spreadsheet, should I also send these to the court?:?:

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How does this POC stack up,

It doesn't and explains their brief defence which is normally much more extensive.


You need to amend your claim and submit a thorough POC. Such as here:



You do this with form N244:

Form N244 - application notice



With regard to the N244 -

Top left hand box:

1. Tick c), without a hearing

Leave the rest blank


Part A

intend to apply for an order that:

amends my particulars of claim



my particulars of claim did not state the statutory provisions on which my claim relies,


Part B

Tick evidence in part c


Part C

Please find attached to this application my proposed new particulars of claim, amended to include the statutory provisions on which my claim relies , as well as a schedule of the amount claimed in respect of penalty charges levied by the defendant"




Then fill in form N1:

N1 Claims form in .PDF format with form filling

with the poc's from the above link



Send N244 + 3 copies of N1 + 3 copies of the schedules + £35 fee to the court. They will send 2 back, 1 of which you serve/send to the defendants and confirm to the court that you have done so.

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:) The advice on this thread has been great. I've now used/adapted the thorough POC suggested by Michael. i've also completed forms N244, N149 and Form N1, using all advice offered. I take heart from your advice seminole.


Some further help, if I'm not pushing my luck!


  1. I am the father of the Claimant and have been doing all the work for her. Will I able able to be her representative in court (if we go there) and if so can I still answer "0" to the witness question (D) in the allocation questionnaire?
  2. I've seen two threshold claim figures for when the £100 fee for an Allocation Questionnaire clicks in. Is it £1000 or £1500? Is the £35 for the N244 reclaimable as a cost (and the £100 if the threshold is £1000.) Will it just be added if I'm awarded (hopefully!) court fees?
  3. Is there a PDF saving process that will let you retrieve and amend an already completed form?

I've read all the connected threads and my head is now aching!! Have I missed anything?

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1. You can represent her as a Lay Representative. She must be present too. All documents must be in her name and signed by her.


2. Claims over £1500 have allocation fee of £100 (automatically added to your claim). £35 amendment fee not reclaimable.


3. You can't save the N1 pdf. Only print it off

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Here's what I hope is a useful update for readers of this thread, and a question to you Michael.


I have spoken at length to the calls centres of both Moneyclaim On-Line and the standard Northampton court.


As you might imagine, M O-L are swamped out with Bank reclaims.


Apparently, the MOL judge has ruled that N149 allocation questionnaires are not required in future. I am therefore directed as follows to produce the following two forms to update my POC (largely in line with your advice)


  1. Form N244 Application Notice. Complete the application notice in the manner you describe. The only nuance they suggest is for Part C to put this:

Please find attached to this application, my proposed new particulars of claim, amended to include the statutory provisions on which my claim relies, as well as a schedule of the amount claimed in respect of penalty charges levied by the defendant. This replaces my previous claim as shown hereunder. (Then put your previous POC's word perfect below on the form itself.) Then one can attach the full text (amended for this case) of your template
jordash v barclays bank.
That sorts the N244.


Claim form (
) web version
(which is slightly different from the hard copy N1) needs reproducing
exactly as the original
with any changes put in red to replace original text struck out, which also has to be in red.

My key dilemna is that apparently for both types of N1 form, you can only have a maximum 1080 characters in your POC, whilst the Jordash v Barclays bank one is 7426 with no spaces?

What are your observations and advice?

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While what they're telling you is not wrong ,the N1CPC is if you are amending your claim at MCOL which you can only do online. Therefore the space limitation etc.


Hasn't your claim already been transferred to your local court?


If not wait until it is and then apply for an amendment using hard copy N1 where there are no space or atttachment restrictions

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  • 1 month later...

After what seems an eternity I have had the case transferred from Moneyclaim on line to Bedford CC. The Judge has now written to me in respect of the POC I have now submitted, to say


  1. "Pleadings should be set out in fact, not law:
  2. Proceedings have been served hence permission is required (unless the defendant) consents

You should contact the Defendants and obtain their written consent/agreement that your particulars of claim can be amended. If they agree please supply the court with a further copy of the claim form and amended particulars and the Court will reserve them on the Defendants.


If they do not consent you must notify the Court and the matter will be referred back to the District Judge for permission to amend them."


What should be my response? Surely the changed POC has been used before?

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  • 8 months later...

I have now had the following General Form of Judgement or Order from the County Court which reads:-


Upon reading the Court file and noting that judgement has not yet been given in the test case referred to in the order staying these proceedings:




  1. The stay may ber extended to 30th September 2008
  2. Either party may apply at any time, by application on notice in accordance with CPR23, to lift the stay.
  3. If no such application is made, the court will give direction of its own initiative on the expiry of the stay.

My question is do I remain passive, or do I apply to lift the stay?

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