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    • Monika the first four pages of the Private parking section have at least 12 of our members who have also been caught out on this scam site. That's around one quarter of all our current complaints. Usually we might expect two current complaints for the same park within 4 pages.  So you are in good company and have done well in appealing to McDonalds in an effort to resolve the matter without having  paid such a bunch of rogues. Most people blindly pay up. Met . Starbucks and McDonalds  are well aware of the situation and seem unwilling to make it easier for motorists to avoid getting caught. For instance, instead of photographing you, if they were honest and wanted you  to continue using their services again, they would have said "Excuse me but if you are going to go to Mc donalds from here, it will cost you £100." But no they kett quiet and are now pursuing you for probably a lot more than £100 now. They also know thst  they cannot charge anything over the amount stated on the car park signs. Their claims for £160 or £170 are unlawful yet so many pay that to avoid going to Court. When the truth is that Met are unlikely to take them to Court since they know they will lose. The PCNs are issued on airport land which is covered by Byelaws so only the driver can be pursued, not the keeper. But they keep writing to you as they do not know who was driving unless you gave it away when you appealed. Even if they know you were driving they should still lose in Court for several reasons. The reason we ask you to fill out our questionnaire is to help you if MET do decide to take you to Court in the end. Each member who visited the park may well have different experiences while there which can help when filling out a Witness statement [we will help you with that if it comes to it.] if you have thrown away the original PCN  and other paperwork you obviously haven't got a jerbil or a guinea pig as their paper makes great litter boxes for them.🙂 You can send an SAR to them to get all the information Met have on you to date. Though if you have been to several sites already, you may have done that by now. In the meantime, you will be being bombarded by illiterate debt collectors and sixth rate solicitors all threatening you with ever increasing amounts as well as being hung drawn and quartered. Their letters can all be safely ignored. On the odd chance that you may get a Letter of Claim from them just come back to us and we will get you to send a snotty letter back to them so that they know you are not happy, don't care a fig for their threats and will see them off in Court if they finally have the guts to carry on. If you do have the original PCN could you please post it up, carefully removing your name. address and car registration number but including dates and times. If not just click on the SAR to take you to the form to send to Met.
    • In order for us to help you we require the following information:- [if there are more than one defendant listed - tell us] 1 defendant   Which Court have you received the claim from ? County Court Business Centre, Northampton   Name of the Claimant ? LC Asset 2 S.A R.L   Date of issue – . 28/04/23   Particulars of Claim   What is the claim for –    (1) The Claimant ('C') claims the whole of the outstanding balance due and payable under an agreement referenced xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and opened effective from xx/xx/2017. The agreement is regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 ('CCA'), was signed by the Defendant ('D') and from which credit was extended to D.   (2) D failed to comply with a Default Notice served pursuant to s87 (1) CCA and by xx/xx/2022 a default was recorded.   (3) As at xx/xx/2022 the Defendant owed MBNA LTD the sum of 12,xxx.xx. By an agreement in writing the benefit of the debt has been legally assigned to C effective xx/xx/2022 and made regular upon C serving a Notice of Assignment upon D shortly thereafter.   (4) And C claims- 1. 12,xxx.xx 2. Interest pursuant to Section 69 County Courts Act 1984 at a rate of 8% per annum from xx/01/2023 to xx/04/2023 of 2xx.xx and thereafter at a daily rate of 2.52 to date of judgement or sooner payment. Date xx/xx/2023   What is the total value of the claim? 12k   Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) ? Yes   Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred? No   Did you inform the claimant of your change of address? N/A Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? Credit Card   When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ? After   Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ? Online   Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ? Yes, but amount differs slightly   Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. DP issued claim   Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? Not that I recall...   Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? Not that I recall...   Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Sums in Arrears”  or " Notice of Arrears "– at least once a year ? Yes   Why did you cease payments? Loss of employment main cause   What was the date of your last payment? Early 2021   Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? No   Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan? No   -----------------------------------
    • Hello CAG Team, I'm adding the contents of the claim to this thread, but wanted to open the thread with an urgent question: Do I have to supply a WS for a claim with a court date that states " at the hearing the court will consider allocation and, time permitting, give an early neutral evaluation of the case" ? letter is an N24 General Form of Judgement or Order, if so, then I've messed up again. Court date 25 May 2024 The letter from court does not state (like the other claims I have) that I must provide WS within 28 days.. BUT I have recently received a WS from Link for it! making me think I do need to!??
    • Massive issues from Scottish Power I wonder if someone could advise next steps. Tennant moved out I changed the electric into my name I was out the country at the time so I hadn't been to the flat. During sign up process they tried to hijack my gas supply as well which I made it clear I didn't want duel fuel from them but they still went ahead with it. Phoned them up again. a few days later telling them to make sure they stopped it but they said too late ? had to get my current supplier to cancel it. Paid £50 online to ensure there was money covering standing charges etc eventually got to the flat no power. Phoned Scottish Power 40 minutes to get through they state I have a pay as you go meter and that they had set me up on a credit account so they need to send an engineer out which they will pass my details onto. Phone called from engineer asking questions , found out the float is vacant so not an emergency so I have to speak to Scottish Power again. Spoke with the original person from Scottish Power who admitted a mistake (I had told her it was vacant) and now states that it will take 4 weeks to get an appointment but if I want to raise a complaint they will contact me in 48 hours and it will be looked at quicker. Raised a complaint , complaints emailed me within 24 hours to say it will take 7 days till he speaks with me. All I want is power in the property would I be better switching over to EON who supply the gas surely they could sort it out quicker? One thing is for sure I will never bother with Scottish Power ever again.    
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Lloyds Bank - The Template Response Letters


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Hi I have also got the kerry parfittt letters but i still dont have my information requested so cannot act further i sent them on the 25th feb had two letters back last one saying will write again in 4 weeks ! What next ?

 

Hi

If you mean the SAR:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/6986-data-protection-act-non.html

 

Barty:)

I WON!!!! :D :D :D

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloydstsb-successes/1774-barty-lloyds-tsb.html

 

IF I HAVE BEEN HELPFUL PLEASE CLICK THE SCALES:)

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Hi

I havent got my info yet either, the 40 days is up now as i sent my 1st letter 24th feb, they just sent me a standard fob off saying they will look into it and be in touch within 4 week!! NOT GOOD ENUFF!! today i sent them the non-compliance before action letter giving them 7 days to comply, within that time i will arrange my N1 just in-case they dont reply.

Keep me posted of your progress

Dawny

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Lloyds did that with my O/Hs SAR. I sent them the non compliance letter and he received the stats just outside of the 7 days. They never agreed to repay any charges though as they said they were fair roflma! Im now preparing to file.

good Luck folks

Morgan Stanley

**Won 31.01.07 with CCI**

Capital One

**Won 19.04.07 with CCI**

Halifax current & Joint

Verbal S.A.R 11.01.07, stats recd 18.01.07

Halifax Visa prelim sent 26.01.07. Reply 31.01.07 Filed N1 on 20.03.07 - Judgement granted, sent in the bailiffs

GE Capital

Frazercard Prelim sent with CCI 27.01.07

Burtons Prelim sent with CCI 22.01.07

 

RBOS Visa S.A.R sent 12.01.07

Partners JJB card (Creation) *Won* with part interest - 15.02.07

 

 

Partners LLOYDS Account S.A.R 13.12.06 - stats recd 30.01.07. Prelim sent with CCI 01.02.07

 

Partners BOS Mastercard Offered all charges except £12. Refused. N1 filed 20.03.07 - Judgement granted, sent in the bailiffs

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Hi All,

 

Thought I would up date you on the sneaky tactics tried this week. As you will see from the earlier posting by myself, I had last week received the standard Defence from Lloyds Solicitors.

 

Well I logged onto the internet bank on Monday to make sure all direct debits had been paid following receipt of my wages only to discover that Lloyds had put £750 "Goodwill Refund" into my account. As my claim covers two other accounts I checked these to discover a further £750 in one and £708 in another. Given I had not received any communication from lloyds, I went to the local branch and enquired what the payments were. I was told that the notes were not clear on the system and they guessed the payments were inconnection with my claim. Branch unable to give my contact number so left it with them. However, next day received a letter from Lloyds explainng what each payment was, it was a "full and final settlement for my claim" BUT that letter was dated 20 March 2007 saying that would credit my account in 10 days if I agreed. The letter was posted 2 April and I received it on 3 April. Just as well I had not touched the money and I immediately tried to contact the writer but phone constantly engaged. Therefore rang solicitors to speak to them, but guess what, the solicitors who act for Lloyds in connection with bank charge claims won't speak to the general public, so had to leave message that I did not accept the money and they could take it back. Thought that I would follow up with a letter, in which i relayed conversation and dropped the bombshell that I had also completed allocation questionnaire and sent to the Court. Here's hoping that this will prompt a settlement! But wanted to make you all aware of some more sneaky tactics, becuase if i had used that money I would have been deemed to have accepted their offer and given that they were £3500 short of my claim, it wasn't good enough.

 

Staffie

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Hi Barty,

I havent had a reply from my LBA, i have now printed off my last 5 yrs statements on-line, as they havent sent them to me yet, do i sent them off with the next letter to them? i am all read out and confused and dazed by it all. help

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Hi Barty,

I havent had a reply from my LBA, i have now printed off my last 5 yrs statements on-line, as they havent sent them to me yet, do i sent them off with the next letter to them? i am all read out and confused and dazed by it all. help

 

Hi

If you have sent the LBA the next step is Court action. I think you should have a read of the following:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/faqs-please-read-these/31460-step-step-instructions.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/faqs-please-read-these/

 

 

Have you got your own thread, it would help so we can see what you have already done so far.

Barty:)

 

I WON!!!! :D :D :D

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloydstsb-successes/1774-barty-lloyds-tsb.html

 

IF I HAVE BEEN HELPFUL PLEASE CLICK THE SCALES:)

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My one says:

 

I am just writing to let you know that we have recieved your complaint - and to say how sorry I am to learn that you feel you have cause to complain.

 

Please get in touch if we've misunderstood your concerns or if you have some more information you want us to have. If we don't hear back from you in the next couple of days, we will carry on with our investigation using the information you've already provided.

 

We expect our enquiries to be completed within the next four weeks but we will try to get a response to you sooner if we can. If there's a delay, we will let you know why and we'll give you an idea of when you can expect to receive a full response to your compliant. I hope we can sort things out for you.

 

Etc, Etc.

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does this mean you going to get paid out with no hassle or as on some of other they offer you a partial refund

 

No - it means they are stalling! Lloyds love hassle and will take you up to the wire. The partial refunds seem to be quite random and don't follow a pattern, a lot of people don't even get them.Stick to your timetable and not theirs!

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Hi,

yes i had the same letter, i then sent them the non-compliance giving them 7 days, they havent replied to that, on tuesday i am going to send them my 5yrs statements that i printed off requesting payment plus interest. that will be interesting!!!keep me informed.

Dawny

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Hi Everyone - this is my first post!

 

I'm presently taking action against Lloyds to the sum of £751.66. When asked for a list of my charges they sent them with 1 day to spare - just trying to hold things up as much as possible I presume. They then did the same when I sent the letter asking for my cash back - last day of the time limit. I've got recorded delivery signatures for all the letters though.

 

My court-action threat letter hasn't recieved a reply, so I've started my claim on the moneyclaim site now... I bet they wait until the last minute for this stage too.

 

This is my first claim, but I've got another Lloyds account I'm going to claim next , then its on to the credit card firms... with a bit of luck I may be able to pay off a decent amount of my debt with the repaid charges.... fingers crossed!!

 

Can anyone hazzard a guess as to their next step? Are they likely to just settle now?

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As a way of bumping this thread, this is the letter that I received:

 

Dear Mr ****

 

Thank you for getting in touch with us. I am sorry you are unhappy about your account charges.

 

Like any business, we do make a charge for some of our extra services. When customers don't have enough in their accounts to cover a payment, this always means extra work-abd it has to happen very quickly. We have to agree to make the payment by setting up or increasing an overdraft, or tell customers we can't agree it. We feel it's fair to charge for this service.

 

Of course it's only fair too, that we're completely open about any charged for services before you might need them. That's why we take care to give every new customer the latest guide to our charges. You can also get up to date details about fees and borrowing rates at all our branches, through out helpline and on our website.

 

Just as importantly, we do everything we can to help our customers avoid these charges. You can get an up-to-date balance at any of our cash machines, over the phone, online and by weekly text to your mobile.

 

If you know a payment is going to take you over your agreed limit, you're welcome to see if there's anything we can do.

 

The Office of Fair Trading has published new guidelines on credit card defuault charges. We're still talking it through with them, but the important point is that the guidelines are about 'default' charges that people pay when they break an agreement with us. This doesn't apply to your charges as these were for dealing with your request to go over your agreed overdraft limit. They are not default charges because you haven't broken your agreement. They are prices for the service we provide in these situations.

 

I understand that you may also have some concerns about us sharing information about your relationship with us with the credit reference agencies we use. I'd like to reassure you that this does not apply to bank charges; we only share what is known as white data, which is information about payments to your credit card, loan or mortgage accounts.

 

I do hope you can see that we make our charging system as fair as possible-and why I can't agree to cancel your charges.

 

I hope this fully answers the points you raised with us. Please let me know if there is anything else i can do to help. If we cannot come to an agreement, I will provide you with the details of the Financial Omsbudsman Service so they can consider your complait independently.

 

If you are happy with the way I have dealt with your complaint, there is no need for you to reply to my letter. If I have not heard from you by the 29 May 2007 I will close my file, though of course I will re-open it should you come back at any point afterwards

 

Yours sincerely

 

Debbie Gilbert

Team Manager

 

 

Seems very similar to the other templated responses. Any observations?

 

D

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  • 2 weeks later...

Evening All!

My "bank charges claim wheels" have just started rolling also!

Have sent the S.A.R letter just, Apr 2nd. 40days.. I'll speak to you all then no doubt!? May12th here we come.

PS Many thanks to everyone for posting their experiences, I'm sure my other half will appreciate me sitting at the computer permanently for the next few months reading them all?!

Ryan :cool:

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Is it OK to send the standard LBA template letter to their template response or should the LBA address the points they raise in their letter?

 

A friend of mine got the following reply to her Preliminary letter -

 

Thank you for getting in touch with us. I am sorry you are unhappy about your account charges.

 

Like any business, we do make a charge for some of our extra services. When customers don't have enough in their accounts to cover a payment, this always means extra work-abd it has to happen very quickly. We have to agree to make the payment by setting up or increasing an overdraft, or tell customers we can't agree it. We feel it's fair to charge for this service.

 

Of course it's only fair too, that we're completely open about any charged for services before you might need them. That's why we take care to give every new customer the latest guide to our charges. You can also get up to date details about fees and borrowing rates at all our branches, through out helpline and on our website.

 

Just as importantly, we do everything we can to help our customers avoid these charges. You can get an up-to-date balance at any of our cash machines, over the phone, online and by weekly text to your mobile.

 

If you know a payment is going to take you over your agreed limit, you're welcome to see if there's anything we can do.

 

The Office of Fair Trading has published new guidelines on credit card defuault charges. We're still talking it through with them, but the important point is that the guidelines are about 'default' charges that people pay when they break an agreement with us. This doesn't apply to your charges as these were for dealing with your request to go over your agreed overdraft limit. They are not default charges because you haven't broken your agreement. They are prices for the service we provide in these situations.

 

I understand that you may also have some concerns about us sharing information about your relationship with us with the credit reference agencies we use. I'd like to reassure you that this does not apply to bank charges; we only share what is known as white data, which is information about payments to your credit card, loan or mortgage accounts.

 

I do hope you can see that we make our charging system as fair as possible-and why I can't agree to cancel your charges.

 

I hope this fully answers the points you raised with us. Please let me know if there is anything else i can do to help. If we cannot come to an agreement, I will provide you with the details of the Financial Omsbudsman Service so they can consider your complait independently.

 

If you are happy with the way I have dealt with your complaint, there is no need for you to reply to my letter. If I have not heard from you by the 29 May 2007 I will close my file, though of course I will re-open it should you come back at any point afterwards

 

Yours sincerely

 

Alan Groves

Customer Service Recovery Centre Andover

 

 

Would this reply be OK? -

 

Dear Mr. Groves,

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxxx

 

I write in response to your letter dated xx xx xxxx.

I’m afraid I don’t agree that the charges are for a service you provide and still maintain that they are ‘default charges’ which are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent Consumer regulations. It is my belief that you are attempting to disguise these charges; a practice that the OFT report addresses in s4.21 of their report.

 

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary.

I calculate that you have now taken £xxxx. I am enclosing an updated copy of the schedule of the charges which I am claiming. I am also claiming back the £10.00 Data Protection Act Subject Access Request fee. This brings the total to £xxxx

I require repayment in full of this money. If you do not comply fully within 14 days then I shall begin a claim against you for the full amount plus interest plus my costs and without further notice.

 

 

Yours sincerely,

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  • 1 month later...

Hi Help required

 

Have started two claims against LLoyds-TSB one for a business account and one for personal account. Have had a letter back to day ref the business account

 

Very similar to other replies / templates posted from LLOyds but with the addition of this para

 

" I notice that you have referred to the Unfair Contracts Terms Act 1977 and the Unfair terms in consumer Contract Regulation but these don't apply to you as you are a business customer and these acts and regulations only apply to consumers."

 

Is this correct or should I go a head and file a claim to court now.

 

Bright3945

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Hi Help required

 

Have started two claims against LLoyds-TSB one for a business account and one for personal account. Have had a letter back to day ref the business account

 

Very similar to other replies / templates posted from LLOyds but with the addition of this para

 

" I notice that you have referred to the Unfair Contracts Terms Act 1977 and the Unfair terms in consumer Contract Regulation but these don't apply to you as you are a business customer and these acts and regulations only apply to consumers."

 

Is this correct or should I go a head and file a claim to court now.

 

Bright3945

 

Bright

 

You can use UCTA77 (ask them to demonstrate where in the act it says otherwise, and they will not be able to), BUT they are correct in saying you cant use UTCCR.

Come and have a look and join in this thread for Business claimants, lots of help here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/68191-claiming-business-account-lets.html

 

Regards

 

PM

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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Hi

Thanks Vamp and Reload for your info. I to had myvery own BOG OFF letter and was very surprised to see the exact same one on this web site!! I do agree with you both that this is extremely serious, i dont think i have ever suffered with anxiety before now - and its horrible!! I have just sent yesterday my letter before action i did use some of the wording in the templates but basically added my own bits just to make it more personal. Lloyds tried to control my actions by setting deadlines (dates etc) however in my own letter i made sure that i was the one in control and stated my own deadline dates. I do hope this matter is resolved as i am really very anxious and worried!! (not gonna let them know that though!) Thanks again guys it helps to bounce ideas off!!

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Good day all...

 

I have also received the following response from lloyds:

 

Dear Mr ****

 

Thank you for getting in touch with us. I am sorry you are unhappy about your account charges.

 

Like any business, we do make a charge for some of our extra services. When customers don't have enough in their accounts to cover a payment, this always means extra work-abd it has to happen very quickly. We have to agree to make the payment by setting up or increasing an overdraft, or tell customers we can't agree it. We feel it's fair to charge for this service.

 

Of course it's only fair too, that we're completely open about any charged for services before you might need them. That's why we take care to give every new customer the latest guide to our charges. You can also get up to date details about fees and borrowing rates at all our branches, through out helpline and on our website.

 

Just as importantly, we do everything we can to help our customers avoid these charges. You can get an up-to-date balance at any of our cash machines, over the phone, online and by weekly text to your mobile.

 

If you know a payment is going to take you over your agreed limit, you're welcome to see if there's anything we can do.

 

The Office of Fair Trading has published new guidelines on credit card defuault charges. We're still talking it through with them, but the important point is that the guidelines are about 'default' charges that people pay when they break an agreement with us. This doesn't apply to your charges as these were for dealing with your request to go over your agreed overdraft limit. They are not default charges because you haven't broken your agreement. They are prices for the service we provide in these situations.

 

I understand that you may also have some concerns about us sharing information about your relationship with us with the credit reference agencies we use. I'd like to reassure you that this does not apply to bank charges; we only share what is known as white data, which is information about payments to your credit card, loan or mortgage accounts.

 

I do hope you can see that we make our charging system as fair as possible-and why I can't agree to cancel your charges.

 

I hope this fully answers the points you raised with us. Please let me know if there is anything else i can do to help. If we cannot come to an agreement, I will provide you with the details of the Financial Omsbudsman Service so they can consider your complait independently.

 

If you are happy with the way I have dealt with your complaint, there is no need for you to reply to my letter. If I have not heard from you by the 16 July 2007 I will close my file, though of course I will re-open it should you come back at any point afterwards

 

Yours sincerely

I have been reading these forums etc. but im not quite sure if I can use the standard LBA template to reply to this letter or not? I see other people have asked this same question but i didint see a clear answer.

 

Thanks in advance!

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Good day all...

 

I have also received the following response from lloyds:

 

Dear Mr ****

 

Thank you for getting in touch with us. I am sorry you are unhappy about your account charges.

 

Like any business, we do make a charge for some of our extra services. When customers don't have enough in their accounts to cover a payment, this always means extra work-abd it has to happen very quickly. We have to agree to make the payment by setting up or increasing an overdraft, or tell customers we can't agree it. We feel it's fair to charge for this service.

 

Of course it's only fair too, that we're completely open about any charged for services before you might need them. That's why we take care to give every new customer the latest guide to our charges. You can also get up to date details about fees and borrowing rates at all our branches, through out helpline and on our website.

 

Just as importantly, we do everything we can to help our customers avoid these charges. You can get an up-to-date balance at any of our cash machines, over the phone, online and by weekly text to your mobile.

 

If you know a payment is going to take you over your agreed limit, you're welcome to see if there's anything we can do.

 

The Office of Fair Trading has published new guidelines on credit card defuault charges. We're still talking it through with them, but the important point is that the guidelines are about 'default' charges that people pay when they break an agreement with us. This doesn't apply to your charges as these were for dealing with your request to go over your agreed overdraft limit. They are not default charges because you haven't broken your agreement. They are prices for the service we provide in these situations.

 

I understand that you may also have some concerns about us sharing information about your relationship with us with the credit reference agencies we use. I'd like to reassure you that this does not apply to bank charges; we only share what is known as white data, which is information about payments to your credit card, loan or mortgage accounts.

 

I do hope you can see that we make our charging system as fair as possible-and why I can't agree to cancel your charges.

 

I hope this fully answers the points you raised with us. Please let me know if there is anything else i can do to help. If we cannot come to an agreement, I will provide you with the details of the Financial Omsbudsman Service so they can consider your complait independently.

 

If you are happy with the way I have dealt with your complaint, there is no need for you to reply to my letter. If I have not heard from you by the 16 July 2007 I will close my file, though of course I will re-open it should you come back at any point afterwards

 

Yours sincerely

 

I have been reading these forums etc. but im not quite sure if I can use the standard LBA template to reply to this letter or not? I see other people have asked this same question but i didint see a clear answer.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

Their standard response letter.

 

Use the standard LBA and proceed as per the timescale you have set.

 

Photoman

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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