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2 questions

 

Who is the legal owner of a bank account?

 

And what makes the Account property?

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Albert Einstein

 

"No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - E. Roosevelt

 

 

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In the case R v Wheeler 92 Cr. App.R. 279, CA (Arhcbold 2007 21-184) a market stall holder agreed to sell a medal to a regular customer, who arranged to pay for and pick it up later. Before the customer returned the stall holder was visited by a police officer and told that the medal was stolen. When the customer returned having heard that the police had visited the stallholder he sought reassurance. The stall holder told him that the medal was not stolen. The transaction was completed and the stall holder was later charged with deception under section 15 Theft 1968. On appeal the Court of Appeal quashed the conviction. The property in the goods had passed to the customer when the contract had been made. So the false representation could not have had any effect on the customer because property in the medal had already passed to the customer. Under the new law the stall holder would be convicted under section 2 of the Act.

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Albert Einstein

 

"No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - E. Roosevelt

 

 

Don't lie, thieve, cheat or steal. The Government do not like the competition.

 

 

All advice is offered without prejudice.

We are being sued for Libel. Please help us by donating

 

Please support the pettition to remove Gordon Brown as he was not elected primeinister. He was elected Party Leader something completely different.

 

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Section 2 makes it an offence to commit fraud by false representation. Subsection (1)(a) makes clear that the representation must be made dishonestly. This test applies also to sections 3 and 4. The current definition of dishonesty was established in Ghosh, R. v [1982] EWCA Crim 2 (05 April 1982); [1982] Q.B.1053. That judgment sets a two-stage test. The first question is whether a defendant's behaviour would be regarded as dishonest by the ordinary standards of reasonable and honest people. If answered positively, the second question is whether the defendant was aware that his conduct was dishonest and would be regarded as dishonest by reasonable and honest people.

Subsection (1)(b) requires that the person must make the representation with the intention of making a gain or causing loss or risk of loss to another. The gain or loss does not actually have to take place. The same requirement applies to conduct criminalised by sections 3 and 4.

Subsection (2) defines the meaning of "false" in this context and subsection (3) defines the meaning of "representation". A representation is defined as false if it is untrue or misleading and the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading. Subsection (3) provides that a representation means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to a person's state of mind.

Subsection (4) provides that a representation may be express or implied. It can be stated in words or communicated by conduct. There is no limitation on the way in which the representation must be expressed. So it could be written or spoken or posted on a website.

A representation may also be implied by conduct. An example of a representation by conduct is where a person dishonestly misuses a credit card to pay for items. By tendering the card, he is falsely representing that he has the authority to use it for that transaction. It is immaterial whether the merchant accepting the card for payment is deceived by the representation.

This offence would also be committed by someone who engages in "phishing": i.e. where a person disseminates an email to large groups of people falsely representing that the email has been sent by a legitimate financial institution. The email prompts the reader to provide information such as credit card and bank account numbers so that the "phisher" can gain access to others' assets.

Subsection (5) provides that a representation may be regarded as being made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention). The main purpose of this provision is to ensure that fraud can be committed where a person makes a representation to a machine and a response can be produced without any need for human involvement. (An example is where a person enters a number into a "CHIP and PIN" machine.) The Law Commission had concluded that, although it was not clear whether a representation could be made to a machine, such a provision was unnecessary (see paragraph 8.4 of their report). But subsection (5) is expressed in fairly general terms because it would be artificial to distinguish situations involving modern technology, where it is doubtful whether there has been a "representation", because the only recipient of the false statement is a machine or a piece of software, from other situations not involving modern technology where a false statement is submitted to a system for dealing with communications but is not in fact communicated to a human being (e.g., postal or messenger systems).

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Albert Einstein

 

"No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - E. Roosevelt

 

 

Don't lie, thieve, cheat or steal. The Government do not like the competition.

 

 

All advice is offered without prejudice.

We are being sued for Libel. Please help us by donating

 

Please support the pettition to remove Gordon Brown as he was not elected primeinister. He was elected Party Leader something completely different.

 

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Section 3 makes it an offence to commit fraud by failing to disclose information to another person where there is a legal duty to disclose the information. A legal duty to disclose information may include duties under oral contracts as well as written contracts. The concept of "legal duty" is explained in the Law Commission's Report on Fraud, which said at paragraphs 7.28 and 7.29:

 

"7.28 ..Such a duty may derive from statute (such as the provisions governing company prospectuses), from the fact that the transaction in question is one of the utmost good faith (such as a contract of insurance), from the express or implied terms of a contract, from the custom of a particular trade or market, or from the existence of a fiduciary relationship between the parties (such as that of agent and principal).

 

7.29 For this purpose there is a legal duty to disclose information not only if the defendant's failure to disclose it gives the victim a cause of action for damages, but also if the law gives the victim a right to set aside any change in his or her legal position to which he or she may consent as a result of the non-disclosure. For example, a person in a fiduciary position has a duty to disclose material information when entering into a contract with his or her beneficiary, in the sense that a failure to make such disclosure will entitle the beneficiary to rescind the contract and to reclaim any property transferred under it." For example, the failure of a solicitor to share vital information with a client within the context of their work relationship, in order to perpetrate a fraud upon that client, would be covered by this section. Similarly, an offence could be committed under this section if a person intentionally failed to disclose information relating to his heart condition when making an application for life insurance.

[edit]

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Albert Einstein

 

"No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - E. Roosevelt

 

 

Don't lie, thieve, cheat or steal. The Government do not like the competition.

 

 

All advice is offered without prejudice.

We are being sued for Libel. Please help us by donating

 

Please support the pettition to remove Gordon Brown as he was not elected primeinister. He was elected Party Leader something completely different.

 

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/gordan-brown/

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James, can I have some of what you've been drinking ?;)

 

Cheers.

 

Scott.

 
 

Any advice I give is honest and in good faith.:)

If in doubt, you should seek the opinion of a Qualified Professional.

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Section 11 makes it an offence for any person, by any dishonest act, to obtain services for which payment is required, with intent to avoid payment. The person must know that the services are made available on the basis that they are chargeable, or that they might be. It is not possible to commit the offence by omission alone and it can be committed only where the dishonest act was done with the intent not to pay for the services as expected. This offence replaces the offence of obtaining services by deception in section 1 of the Theft Act 1978 and Article 3 of the Theft (Northern Ireland) Order 1978, though the new offence contains no deception element. Under subsection (3) the maximum custodial sentence for this offence is 5 years.

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Albert Einstein

 

"No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - E. Roosevelt

 

 

Don't lie, thieve, cheat or steal. The Government do not like the competition.

 

 

All advice is offered without prejudice.

We are being sued for Libel. Please help us by donating

 

Please support the pettition to remove Gordon Brown as he was not elected primeinister. He was elected Party Leader something completely different.

 

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Theft Act 1968

Paragraph 3 omits section 15B, which is no longer needed, as it is mainly supplementary to 15A which is being repealed by paragraph 1.

Paragraph 4 removes the references in section 18(1) of the 1968 Act (liability of company officers) to sections 15 and 16, which are repealed by paragraph 1. As explained above, the effect of section 18 is reproduced for all the new offences in this Act by section 12. Paragraph 5 removes the reference in section 20(3) of the 1968 Act (which defines "deception" for the purposes of the offence - in subsection (2) - of procuring a valuable security by deception) to section 15, which is repealed by the Act. Section 20(2) of the 1968 Act is repealed by paragraph 1, so there is no need for any replacement provision.

Paragraph 6 makes two amendments of section 24 of the 1968 Act (scope of offences relating to stolen goods).

  • It replaces the reference in section 24(4) to section 15 with a reference to fraud within the meaning of the Act.
  • It adds a new subsection (5) to section 24 which provides that, in section 24(1), the reference to the commencement of the 1968 Act shall be read as a reference to the commencement of the Fraud Act 2006 and the reference to offences under section 15 shall be read as a reference to the general fraud offence in section 1 of this Act.

Paragraph 7 makes three amendments of section 24A of the 1968 Act (on dishonestly retaining a wrongful credit, which was inserted by the 1996 Act as a result of R v Preddy [1996 AC 815).

  • It deletes the existing subsections (3) and (4), which deal with the meaning of "wrongful", and replaces them with a new subsection (2A). The effect is that the existing references to offences under section 15A are replaced by a reference to the general fraud offence in section 1 of the Act.
  • The second change is consequential on the above - it renumbers as (2A) the existing reference to subsection (4) in subsection (7).
  • It replaces the existing subsection (9), which says that "account" and "money" shall be construed in accordance with 15B. Although section 15B is repealed in paragraph 3, the substance of subsections (3) to (5) needs to be preserved for the sake of section 24A. This paragraph does this by inserting them as subsections (9) to (11) of section 24A, which is now their more natural home. (But the reference to the euro is dropped - it is no longer needed now that the euro is a currency.) It also expands the definition of "account" to include accounts kept with issuers of electronic money.

Paragraph 8 amends section 25 (going equipped). Section 25 will be replaced as far as its application to fraud is concerned by sections 6 to 8 of the Act. Therefore, section 25 needs modifying so that the references to "cheats" in subsection (1), (3) and (5) are removed because the term "cheat" is defined by reference to section 15 of the 1968 Act.

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Albert Einstein

 

"No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - E. Roosevelt

 

 

Don't lie, thieve, cheat or steal. The Government do not like the competition.

 

 

All advice is offered without prejudice.

We are being sued for Libel. Please help us by donating

 

Please support the pettition to remove Gordon Brown as he was not elected primeinister. He was elected Party Leader something completely different.

 

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/gordan-brown/

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James, tell me your not typing all this !!

 
 

Any advice I give is honest and in good faith.:)

If in doubt, you should seek the opinion of a Qualified Professional.

If you can, please donate to this site.

Help keep it up and active, helping people like you.

If you no longer require help, please do what you can to help others

RIP: Rooster-UK - MARTIN3030 - cerberusalert

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so... you can not answer the question?

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Albert Einstein

 

"No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - E. Roosevelt

 

 

Don't lie, thieve, cheat or steal. The Government do not like the competition.

 

 

All advice is offered without prejudice.

We are being sued for Libel. Please help us by donating

 

Please support the pettition to remove Gordon Brown as he was not elected primeinister. He was elected Party Leader something completely different.

 

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/gordan-brown/

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Well, I always thought that the T&C's of a credit card stated that the credit card was the property of the card issuer, the account itself I can only hazard a guess at, that it is run by the customer but i would not call it property, because it isnt a tangible thing is it?

 

My brain hurts :-)

Lula

 

Lula v Abbey - Settled

Lula v Abbey (2) - Settled

Lula v Abbey (3) - Stayed

 

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Of course, this now leaves the mystery of precisely where all that stuff about the Theft Act comes into it ...

HSBCLloyds TSBcontractual interestNew Tax Creditscoming for you?NTL/Virgin Media

 

Never give in ... Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. Churchill, 1941

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The current definition of dishonesty was established in Ghosh, R. v [1982] EWCA Crim 2 (05 April 1982); [1982] Q.B.1053. That judgment sets a two-stage test. The first question is whether a defendant's behaviour would be regarded as dishonest by the ordinary standards of reasonable and honest people. If answered positively, the second question is whether the defendant was aware that his conduct was dishonest and would be regarded as dishonest by reasonable and honest people.

Subsection (1)(b) requires that the person must make the representation with the intention of making a gain or causing loss or risk of loss to another. The gain or loss does not actually have to take place. The same requirement applies to conduct criminalised by sections 3 and 4.

Subsection (2) defines the meaning of "false" in this context and subsection (3) defines the meaning of "representation". A representation is defined as false if it is untrue or misleading and the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading. Subsection (3) provides that a representation means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to a person's state of mind.

Subsection (4) provides that a representation may be express or implied. It can be stated in words or communicated by conduct. There is no limitation on the way in which the representation must be expressed. So it could be written or spoken or posted on a website.

A representation may also be implied by conduct.

 

Surely this seems to argue the point that banks representing their charges as fair and honest are in fact being dishonest, I hestitate to say stealing but that seems to be one way of looking at it.

 

Someone tell me I'm wrong please? If I've read this correctly couldn't this be used in evidence when claiming refund of charges in court?

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Surely this seems to argue the point that banks representing their charges as fair and honest are in fact being dishonest, I hestitate to say stealing but that seems to be one way of looking at it.

 

The relevance of this to the simple matter of who owns a credit card is ... ? ;)

HSBCLloyds TSBcontractual interestNew Tax Creditscoming for you?NTL/Virgin Media

 

Never give in ... Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. Churchill, 1941

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So I'll take my request for knowledge elsewhere.

 

But in my t & c on credit card it says it remains the property of the CC company at all times and is only used with their permission.

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So I'll take my request for knowledge elsewhere.

 

There is more to the forum than this one thread. ;)

 

But in my t & c on credit card it says it remains the property of the CC company at all times and is only used with their permission.

 

Job done, then. Any questions?

HSBCLloyds TSBcontractual interestNew Tax Creditscoming for you?NTL/Virgin Media

 

Never give in ... Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. Churchill, 1941

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Well, I always thought that the T&C's of a credit card stated that the credit card was the property of the card issuer
That is a very interesting point when you consider a store card: they are issued by banks/finance companies ON BEHALF of the store, so technically your contract should be with the bank/finance house...

 

However, you do not sign the contract with anyone other than the store (is this bit correct?) and therefore it would be safe to expect to deal with the store in the case of any discrepancies...

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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So what if one dose not sign the T&C's they only sign an application form?

 

Who would be the implied owner or the individual in control of the card?

 

the individual in control of the card would be ourselves right? but since there is no contract under contract law who is the owner of the card?

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Albert Einstein

 

"No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - E. Roosevelt

 

 

Don't lie, thieve, cheat or steal. The Government do not like the competition.

 

 

All advice is offered without prejudice.

We are being sued for Libel. Please help us by donating

 

Please support the pettition to remove Gordon Brown as he was not elected primeinister. He was elected Party Leader something completely different.

 

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/gordan-brown/

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Well, I always thought that the T&C's of a credit card stated that the credit card was the property of the card issuer, the account itself I can only hazard a guess at, that it is run by the customer but i would not call it property, because it isnt a tangible thing is it?

 

My brain hurts :-)

 

The account becomes a thing when it is used to pay for goods or a service.

 

It is implied that to use a card that may have been issued to access the account gives implied right to use the money in it.

 

But one did not sign T&C's so how can it be owned by the bank / card issuer?

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Albert Einstein

 

"No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - E. Roosevelt

 

 

Don't lie, thieve, cheat or steal. The Government do not like the competition.

 

 

All advice is offered without prejudice.

We are being sued for Libel. Please help us by donating

 

Please support the pettition to remove Gordon Brown as he was not elected primeinister. He was elected Party Leader something completely different.

 

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/gordan-brown/

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The account becomes a thing when it is used to pay for goods or a service.

 

You are not using the card or the account to pay for the goods (since you walk away with it at the end of the transaction), you are using the bank's money.

 

But one did not sign T&C's so how can it be owned by the bank / card issuer?

 

How can it be owned by you? You signed up to the T&C when you signed on the dotted line.

HSBCLloyds TSBcontractual interestNew Tax Creditscoming for you?NTL/Virgin Media

 

Never give in ... Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. Churchill, 1941

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well one goes to work and works in a job

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Albert Einstein

 

"No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - E. Roosevelt

 

 

Don't lie, thieve, cheat or steal. The Government do not like the competition.

 

 

All advice is offered without prejudice.

We are being sued for Libel. Please help us by donating

 

Please support the pettition to remove Gordon Brown as he was not elected primeinister. He was elected Party Leader something completely different.

 

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/gordan-brown/

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I did not sign any T&C's

 

HSBC could not prove that i had

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Albert Einstein

 

"No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - E. Roosevelt

 

 

Don't lie, thieve, cheat or steal. The Government do not like the competition.

 

 

All advice is offered without prejudice.

We are being sued for Libel. Please help us by donating

 

Please support the pettition to remove Gordon Brown as he was not elected primeinister. He was elected Party Leader something completely different.

 

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/gordan-brown/

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