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Statute of limitations and are the banks word gospel?


Penfold92
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Hi,

 

I will cut to the chase as I would like opinions or advice re my situation with Woolwich.

 

This debt is old and when I say old I mean it was pasted to Equidebt to collect in '98! However, I have it in writting from Woolwich that the debt was not sold on and is there debt!

 

Now I recently asked them to produce what they had on this debt as I am questioning it. The short reply (over 3 or 4 letters) is that apart from the amount they do not have any other info.

 

Now my question is if they do not hold any info on this debt am I just to accept this is what I owed and pay up? Or can I say actually I do not believe the debt was right in the first place and so please refund all payments made to Equidebt (9 years worth!) or I will pursue in court?

 

How would a Judge look at it? My word against theirs, I cannot prove I owe less, but as the creditor with active payments being made surely they should be holding the information?

 

Any comments would be greatly appreciated,

 

Penfold92

Penfold

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Not an expert but from all the information gathered on here I would simply say no documents (evidence, proof etc) = no debt.

 

A judge would want to see some sort of evidence that a debt exists before he could reasonably grant judgement against you.

 

But you really answered your own question. If it dates back to 1998 and nothing has been paid in the meantime and you hav not acknowledged the existence of it then the matter is statute barred and the bank are tilting at windmills.

 

Tell to sling their hook!

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Hi,

 

In answer to both replies, I have been paying regularly since '98. Last payment was a year ago or so when I was forced into an IVA.

 

I am not not acknowledging the debt, merely questioning the amount owed. As they have no breakdown or knowledge exactly about the debt how can they say I still owe it or that I have not paid too much over the last 9 years. Do you see where I am coming from?

 

Thanks,

 

 

Penfold

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Statute of limitations won't apply as you mention paying on it up until last year ( if I have understood you correctly? ). For limitations argument to apply there must have been no written acknowledgement of the debt nor any payments...

 

Have you sent them the CCA letter requesting an account breakdown? If the DCA it was passed to has been adding on interest & charges this should have been allowed for in the original agreement you signed.

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Hi Powelll,

 

Yes I sent the CCA letter, but they replied to say due to timescales they no longer hold any info on the account. So no agreement, breakdown nothing just a figure...

 

Penfold92

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  • 1 month later...

Hi all,

Further to my previous posts and replies by others please find below the last letter I got from Woolwich:

27 April 2007

Dear Penfold

Thank you for your last letter dated 23 April 2007.

In essence the Bank is saying that if you wanted to dispute the debt you have been paying you should have done so when you started to make repayments. The Bank cannot be expected to refund your repayments purely because the original information you require is now not available.

I confirm the debt was not ‘sold’ to Equidebt but they were collecting monies on our behalf.

The Bank’s registered address that you require is:

Barclays Bank PLC (Woolwich)

1 Churchill Place

London

E14 5HP

Yours sincerely

Does anyone out there feel I have a case to ask for a full refund of monies paid? If this went to court are they really going to stand before a judge and say “honest he owes us £…., but we cannot show you any proof he does” ???

Are the Banks that error free? I do not think so…

Any comments on my final letter before action?

Barclays Bank PLC (Woolwich)

1 Churchill Place

London

E14 5HP

08/06/2007

LETTER BEFORE ACTION

Dear Sirs,

RE: Your reference XXXXXX

Further to my previous correspondences with your Customer Relations team I am very disappointed in their responses. Please find all correspondences regarding this enclosed.

I believe that the amount I was being pursued for was incorrect and included many charges that have since been proved illegal. I asked for sight of the original contracts signed by myself and any other documentation to show what the debt was for. This was not supplied under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 all I got was letters ignoring my questions and queries. As a result I have not option, but to formally demand the return of £1038 which has been paid by me to Equidebt since the debt was transferred to them.

I have spoken to Equidebt today who have also confirmed to me once more that apart from the initial figures they have no other details regarding my debt. I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law. The above shows quite clearly this is not the case as these payments have been made under pressure, duress and you cannot show any proof of the agreements or contracts signed.

As you and I both know a Court of Law would not look kindly on a Bank saying “this is what is owed, but we cannot prove it!”. You are also reminded of my request that you forward a copy of the Terms and Conditions that were in force at the time my account was opened, and any subsequent amendments to those Terms and Conditions. These are requested under CPR Pre-Action Protocol 4.6©, and your continued failure to provide them will be brought to the attention of the court, should it be necessary to commence a county court action.

 

Furthermore, I shall submit a Consumer Credit Act 1974 complaint to the OFT upon the basis that you have failed to comply with the OFT's direction of 5 April 2006 and are therefore not a 'fit and proper person' to hold a consumer credit license under the 1974 Act. If you do not understand what this means then seek advice from your legal department. I refer to the responses I got from your Customer Relations explaining that you are not required to hold information over 6 years old. I argue that if an account or debt is still ongoing logic says that information should be held on file should it be required to prove the debt exists.

This letter gives you a further 14 days in which to reflect. I believe that these targets are more than sufficient for a large company such as yours with dedicated staff and departments.

 

After that, there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a claim at the expiry of the deadline direct to my local Court.

Yours faithfully,

Maybe I am opening a can of worms here, but surely any judge will not rule in favour of a debt which cannot be proved?

Thanks,

Penfold

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hi,

 

This debt IS included in the IVA, but I am saying it should not be and they should be paying me back the money I paid them. Why do you need to know the name of my IP?

 

Thanks,

 

Penfold

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i don't really. the reason i ask is that people quite a few people on this forum have had their wires crossed in the past, they have stated that they were under an IVA when in fact they were either in a Debt Management Plan or simply negotiating with their creditors on an informal basis. Perhaps I should have worded myself better! Apologies :)

 

Were Woolwich or Equidebt present at the creditor's meeting?

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Hi,

 

Noone was present the usual Price, Waterman etc did the negotiations and via fax at last minute. IVA was accepted no probs because such a huge amount with young family etc...Do not want to go into it, but got a very easy ride and am settling it early by selling house this month! So want to start getting some money back from these banks who loved giving me money so much! Sounds hypocritical and unfair, but life is life and I feel that most of my debt was created by the banks dishing me more and more whenever I wanted...

 

Anyway that is off subject...

 

Can I say that this should not be included in the IVA as it cannot be proved and want refund of monies paid?

 

Views please?

Penfold

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Can I say that this should not be included in the IVA as it cannot be proved and want refund of monies paid?

 

Views please?

 

it's a fantastic question, not one i know the answer to. i'll hunt around and try and find you an answer

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I have spoken to the IP who have said that even though a full and final settlement has been agreed any windfall would be added to the figures. It is just lucky that by the Woolwich agree they have no leg to stand on the IVA would have been settled and nothing the creditors can do about it!

Penfold

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Hi all,

I wonder if anyone can help please? I will probably be taking this matter to court as I cannot see Woolwich/ Barclays backing down on this one. Can anyone pleasehelp me with the N1 form on particulars of claim?

Here is a rough version that I would love help on please?

PARTICULARS OF CLAIM

 

 

1. The Claimant had an account ("the Account") with the Defendant which was closed on or around 1998 by the Defandant and put into debt management via Equidebt Limited.

 

2. The Claimant contends the debt amount and even whether the debt should have existed at all. The Claimant has recently tried to establish the reason for the debt and the exact way it was created, but the Defendant did not supply any documentation.

 

3. A list of the payments made for this debt to the Defendants agent is attached to these particulars of claim for full refund. Also all correspondence entered into with the Defendant and its agents.

 

4. The Claimant contends that:

 

a) The Defendant cannot provide any true copies or originals of any agreement associated with this debt as are the Claimants rights under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

b) As a direct result of a) the Claimant refutes the debt and account completely. The Defendant cannot provide any documentation at all regarding this account to prove its existence or reasons for the amount outstanding.

5. Accordingly the Claimant claims:

 

a) the return of all amounts paid to Equidebt Limited (agents to the Defendant) to the sum of £xxxx and any interest charged thereon;

 

b) Court costs;

 

c) The claimant claims interest under section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% a year, from [first payment date] to [the date you are issuing the claim] of £ [amount] and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of [enter the daily rate of interest]

 

 

Views and thoughts on this will be appreciated and this may help many others out there who have old debts that they are either still paying or have just paid off!

Thanks,

Penfold

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Guest Gertie100

Can I play devil's advocate for a moment?

Appreciate you are in a financial pickle, and yes, if they can not produce the original documents then the debt can not be enforced. This would give you cause to stop paying.

However, you know the debt exists. Why should you be entitled to claim the paid monies back?

 

Literally just asking the question - no one shout at me please!:o

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Hi I think you need to check this case " Wilson v First County Trust CA" the agreement was improperly executed and was found in court to be unenforceable as you have been advised no agreement this could be used as precedent in your case.

 

all best dpick:p

cannot find it A to Z

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/consumer-forums-website-questions/53182-cant-find-what-youre.html

 

 

Halifax :D

Paid in full £2295

 

MBNA:mad: 20/03/2008 settled in full out of court

 

Capital One:D

07/07/2007 Capital one charges paid in full £1666

19/01/2008 recovered PPI £2216 + costs

 

Littlewoods :-D

12/08/2007 write off £1176.10 debt.

 

JD Williams charges refunded in full £640

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I feel that is a fair question, as is....

 

The debt is over 10 years old and one marriage ago too! I honestly do not remember anything about this debt apart from Woolwich said it was this much and gave it to Equidebt to collect.

 

Years later a bit more savy and concious of the law etc I am quering if it was a correct figure. They cannot provide any details, should I sit back and say "ok I'll pay up cause the Bank says I owe it"?

 

See my point? I agree with the whole moral issues of debt and paying for it if you borrow it etc. This was a joint account that was abused by my ex wife and I have spent over 10 years paying it. Now I want to clarify the situation and you have read the above posts already...

 

That aside for a second, what about Barclays giving me a Monument card a few years ago? They ignored the fact I have an account with a debt agency? Responsible lending? How about Nat West who I owed £7000 10 years ago and still paying them....they gave me a MINT card for £17000 instant credit...RBS owns both...I am still waiting for Sir Goodwins response to that one...lol These banks want to scr*w anyone they can through their charges and interest and when it suits they inforce the 6 years rule, when it doesn't they don't. So morals aside here Woolwich will be paying me back and I will be taking it to court. I will not accept that a Bank can say I owe them money but conveniently not back it up because it was too long ago...If I am still paying them then it is still active and they have been very naive...

 

Penfold

Penfold

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Hi I think you need to check this case " Wilson v First County Trust CA" the agreement was improperly executed and was found in court to be unenforceable as you have been advised no agreement this could be used as precedent in your case.

 

 

Hi,

 

Could you please give me a link for it. I just tried to search under the title and got loads, but could not find that one...

 

Thanks,

 

Penfold

Penfold

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Due to recent issues I have had....

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I feel that is a fair question, as is....

 

The debt is over 10 years old and one marriage ago too! I honestly do not remember anything about this debt apart from Woolwich said it was this much and gave it to Equidebt to collect.

 

Years later a bit more savy and concious of the law etc I am quering if it was a correct figure. They cannot provide any details, should I sit back and say "ok I'll pay up cause the Bank says it owe it"?

 

See my point? I agree with the whole moral issues of debt and paying for it if you borrow it etc. This was a joint account that was abused by my ex wife and I have spent over 10 years paying it. Now I want to clarify the situation and you have read the above posts already...

 

That aside for a second, what about Barclays giving me a Monument card a few years ago? They ignored the fact I have an account with a debt agency? Responsible lending? How about Nat West who I owed £7000 10 years ago and still paying them....they gave me a MINT card for £17000 instant credit...RBS owns both...I am still waiting for Sir Goodwins response to that one...lol These banks want to scr*w anyone they can through their charges and interest and when it suits they inforce the 6 years rule, when it doesn't they don't. So morals aside here Woolwich will be paying me back and I will be taking it to court. I will not accept that a Bank can say I owe them money but conveniently not back it up because it was too long ago...If I am still paying them then it is still active and they have been very naive...

 

Penfold

 

hi again dpick as far as banks telling the truth I would not believe them if they said the that I owed then 0.01p unless they could prove it how do you know that the amount they say you owe is correct unless they prove it I am sure the courts would want proof of how they have reached this amount.

 

dpick:p

cannot find it A to Z

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/consumer-forums-website-questions/53182-cant-find-what-youre.html

 

 

Halifax :D

Paid in full £2295

 

MBNA:mad: 20/03/2008 settled in full out of court

 

Capital One:D

07/07/2007 Capital one charges paid in full £1666

19/01/2008 recovered PPI £2216 + costs

 

Littlewoods :-D

12/08/2007 write off £1176.10 debt.

 

JD Williams charges refunded in full £640

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Guest Gertie100

Actually I didn't say that you should keep paying them - if the debt is unenforcable then you shouldn't keep paying them! If you admit that they debt is yours, but as it is so old there is no details on it, attempt to go down the charges route. Place the account in dispute, assuming of course you can do this with an IVA?

 

As for banks irresponsible lending I do agree with you up to a point - if someone has issues with debt then they shouldn't be able to get more credit and therefore get into more debt. However just because a leaflet drops through your door saying you will automatically get £10k limit on a credit card doesn't mean you should...

This issue here is education - I believe we have totally lost the value of money - with HP, credit cards, loans etc, mortgage companies lending 6x salaries etc, its going to go pop eventually...

I will be watching your thread with interest!!!!

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Hi,

 

Could you please give me a link for it. I just tried to search under the title and got loads, but could not find that one...

 

Thanks,

 

Penfold

 

hi Penfold I was given this as legal advise for my case with my card holder this is link I was given it,s over many pages but has highlites of main detials

 

House of Lords - Wilson and others v. Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Appellant)

 

best of luck dpick:p

cannot find it A to Z

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/consumer-forums-website-questions/53182-cant-find-what-youre.html

 

 

Halifax :D

Paid in full £2295

 

MBNA:mad: 20/03/2008 settled in full out of court

 

Capital One:D

07/07/2007 Capital one charges paid in full £1666

19/01/2008 recovered PPI £2216 + costs

 

Littlewoods :-D

12/08/2007 write off £1176.10 debt.

 

JD Williams charges refunded in full £640

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Gertie,

 

I do agree with you and my family and I were fooling ourselves recently. That has been dealt with via the IVA and we are not running away from that one.

 

The older debts are the issue here, what do you think of this now?

 

4. The Claimant contends that:

 

a) The Defendant cannot provide any true copies or originals of any agreement or contract associated with this account, as are the Claimants rights under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

b) As a direct result of the non existence of a contract or agreement the debt is and always was “unenforceable” and the Claimant has had to make payments under pressure and duress since 1998 even though the Defendant had no right to pursue the Claimant.

 

Thanks,

 

Penfold

Penfold

(feel free to click the scales on the left if I said something that helps)

Due to recent issues I have had....

All posts written by me and involving my opinions and written without any legal knowledge are....

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hi Penfold I was given this as legal advise for my case with my card holder this is link I was given it,s over many pages but has highlites of main detials

 

House of Lords - Wilson and others v. Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Appellant)

 

best of luck dpick:p

 

Thanks pdick,

 

This is fab! How did you use it? In prelimenary letters or on the N1 form?

 

Thanks,

 

Penfold

Penfold

(feel free to click the scales on the left if I said something that helps)

Due to recent issues I have had....

All posts written by me and involving my opinions and written without any legal knowledge are....

Without Prejudice

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Thanks pdick,

 

This is fab! How did you use it? In prelimenary letters or on the N1 form?

 

Thanks,

 

Penfold

 

this was my bigge they folded after LBA though I am still fighting to get money back and was advised not to report at all with this case on CAG untill total completion. I will post full story when complete but this is just advice that I am now giving not a thread and I have seen lots of mensions of the wilson case on CAG threads.

 

dpick:p

cannot find it A to Z

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/consumer-forums-website-questions/53182-cant-find-what-youre.html

 

 

Halifax :D

Paid in full £2295

 

MBNA:mad: 20/03/2008 settled in full out of court

 

Capital One:D

07/07/2007 Capital one charges paid in full £1666

19/01/2008 recovered PPI £2216 + costs

 

Littlewoods :-D

12/08/2007 write off £1176.10 debt.

 

JD Williams charges refunded in full £640

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