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  • 4 weeks later...
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soz not been about and not in a very festive mood at the moment but heres what I sent the w**k**s, copy to DG and the county court

 

The Senior Manager

Service Quality Team

HSBC Bank Plc

Arlington Business Centre

Millshaw Park Lane

Leeds

LS11 0PP

 

Dear Sirs

 

Account Number xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

County Court Claim Number - xxxxxxxx

Date Issued: xxxxxxxx

 

I am in receipt of your letter dated 18th December 2009 which details your belief that the recent judgement by the Supreme Court in the OFT v you and seven others is an end to these matters, you are wrong.

 

Although the OFT effectively lost the “test case” the chief judge of the Supreme Court thought it important enough to say this ruling didn't stop people challenging fairness under 'Regulation 5' of the Unfair terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations, which the Supreme Court case did not cover.

 

In addition to this I believe section 140 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which again did not form any part of the “test case” also contains powerful arguments in relation to my claim against you.

 

I confirm following the judgement by the Supreme Court and in light of the above I am now amending the particulars of my claim and these will be submitted to the court shortly together with my request to have the stay set aside and our dispute listed for hearing.

 

I trust this clarifies the situation for you.

 

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

Ruined castle

 

 

cc your county court

 

 

cc DG Solicitors

12 Calthorpe Road

Edgbaston

Birmingham

B15 1QZ

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  • 2 weeks later...
soz not been about and not in a very festive mood at the moment but heres what I sent the w**k**s, copy to DG and the county court

 

The Senior Manager

Service Quality Team

HSBC Bank Plc

Arlington Business Centre

Millshaw Park Lane

Leeds

LS11 0PP

 

Dear Sirs

 

Account Number xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

County Court Claim Number - xxxxxxxx

Date Issued: xxxxxxxx

 

 

I am in receipt of your letter dated 18th December 2009 which details your belief that the recent judgement by the Supreme Court in the OFT v you and seven others is an end to these matters, you are wrong.

 

Although the OFT effectively lost the “test case” the chief judge of the Supreme Court thought it important enough to say this ruling didn't stop people challenging fairness under 'Regulation 5' of the Unfair terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations, which the Supreme Court case did not cover.

 

In addition to this I believe section 140 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which again did not form any part of the “test case” also contains powerful arguments in relation to my claim against you.

 

I confirm following the judgement by the Supreme Court and in light of the above I am now amending the particulars of my claim and these will be submitted to the court shortly together with my request to have the stay set aside and our dispute listed for hearing.

 

I trust this clarifies the situation for you.

 

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

Ruined castle

 

 

cc your county court

 

 

 

cc DG Solicitors

12 Calthorpe Road

Edgbaston

Birmingham

B15 1QZ

 

Did you get a reply from HSBC ?

I got a letter back from them telling me all the points above have been covered by the High Court judgement and my case is futile... ;)

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See my reply on the other thread Phantom .... I haven't heard if pete got a reply like yours , or not ..

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

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  • 6 months later...
Did you get a reply from HSBC ?

I got a letter back from them telling me all the points above have been covered by the High Court judgement and my case is futile... ;)

 

I have a charges claim with HSBC and DG Solicitors that, following the stay, is now sceduled for a hearing in mid July. I need to present a skeleton argument, I would be grateful if anyone could let me know if the new position with regard to using regard to regulation 5(1) of the UTCCRs has been used or any advice on the SA?

 

Regards

 

Monty

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Hiya Monty :) what date is your hearing and which county court is it in?

 

pete

 

Hi Pete

 

The hearing is set for July 22nd in Cambridge and skeleton arguments are to be exchanged 7 days before. I have just drafted up an amended POC based on that posted on MSE, i.e:

 

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/oft-bank-charges#legal

 

I cannot actually make 22nd July since I am away overseas on business but do want to fight this one. In addition I moved from England to Scotland just after the claim was submitted and the test case fiasco ensued.......

 

I have tonight written to Cambridge county court informing them of the above and submitting an amended POC and copied DG - do you think they will go with this or not? They are sitting here in envolopes ready to go via RM next day delivery tomorrow, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Edited by Monty2007
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Hiya Monty :) I'm in court on the 27th :D I'm assuming like me, you have a case management hearing to discuss if your new poc's will be allowed.

 

The bank arnt going to take this lying down as the did before the test case... they will fight tooth and nail because they dont want the flood gates opening again and their huge profits dwindling back to the people they removed it from.

 

I'm expecting to see a barrester in court to try to oppose my new poc and I expect to have to argue with them to allow this. I think you must attend the hearing and if you cant you must ask the court to reschedule it to a date when you can attend.

 

If your not there the bank will ask for a strike out on the basis that your poc has no reasonable chance of success and without a counter argument the judge is likely to agree (the county courts dont want to be flooded with claims again either).

 

Ill send you a little something by PM :)...

 

pete

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Hiya Monty :) I'm in court on the 27th :D I'm assuming like me, you have a case management hearing to discuss if your new poc's will be allowed.

 

The bank arnt going to take this lying down as the did before the test case... they will fight tooth and nail because they dont want the flood gates opening again and their huge profits dwindling back to the people they removed it from.

 

I'm expecting to see a barrester in court to try to oppose my new poc and I expect to have to argue with them to allow this. I think you must attend the hearing and if you cant you must ask the court to reschedule it to a date when you can attend.

 

If your not there the bank will ask for a strike out on the basis that your poc has no reasonable chance of success and without a counter argument the judge is likely to agree (the county courts dont want to be flooded with claims again either).

 

Ill send you a little something by PM :)...

 

pete

 

Dear Pete

 

Many thanks for your help and advice and also the PM......;)

 

Do you know if any of these cases, using the new arguments have been heard in a court yet?

 

I am not familiar with CPR since the cases I have fought and brought have been up in Scotland. I have advised the Court that I cannot make the hearing date at the end of July which I was only informed about on Firday, plus the directions were for skeleton arguments to be exchanged. I have also advised the court that I wish to submit and amended PoC and have now sent this with the same request for a re-sceduled hearing date.

 

Is this request likely to be successful? Can DG oppose my request to submit a new PoC?

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  • 3 months later...

My hearing to assess if my application to revise my POC would be allowed was on the 18th Oct... I lost... My application was refused, my claim was struck out and costs were awarded against me.

 

The revised POC and the basic arguments and replies are here... BUT BE WARNED THIS IS ONLY POSTED FOR INFORMATION TO ASSIST ANY ONE ELSE WHO BELIEVES THEY CAN IMPROVE ON THE POC.

 

http://cid-e3e9cc02516efea3.office.live.com/self.aspx/.Public/Particulars%20of%20claim%20Oct%202010.pdf

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Hi Pete , long time no hear :)

 

Thanks for the update , I'm so sorry about the outcome though ........ looks to me like the dice are loaded ..... and the courts are misinterpreting the result of the SC outcome ..... whether by ignorance or instruction , I'm not sure.

 

Keep in touch though mate , you're missed on here .............. :D

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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Pete, sorry to hear this. :(

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Hi Pete , long time no hear :)

 

Thanks for the update , I'm so sorry about the outcome though ........ looks to me like the dice are loaded ..... and the courts are misinterpreting the result of the SC outcome ..... whether by ignorance or instruction , I'm not sure.

 

I actualy still think the arguments are good and should have carried more weight in court. The problem is, especialy with the FSA regulations and the Conflict of Interest arguments, they attack the foundations of the current British banking system and the consequenses would snowball.

 

I think the only way these arguments would stand a chance is if they were argued by a professional barrister who cared or the likes of the Govern Law Centre. In other words I dont think a claim for the return of bank charges is any place for a litigant in person anymore.

 

Pete

 

PS, Johnny, sorry I havent been about mate, been a bit busy with one thing and another over the summer

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not the result anyone on here wanted to read but you did as you said you would & took it all the way

you have to take the hit with the costs on this one but just remember you’ve had some successful claims over the last few years so all is not lost :-)

you believed you had a chance with your new poc but it seems the odds were stacked against you :ohwell:

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Indeed sorry to hear of your loss both for you and for all the other potential claimants on here. I actually got paid by HSBC on my second claim just before they started up the formal case. Wanted interest but DG sols would not pay that and advised me it would be in my interest to accept their offer so fair does to them there and I have managed to keep in credit since, more by controlling my wife than anything to do with the Bank.

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  • 1 month later...

I didn't notice this had been posted until now. I presume it is wise then to drop cases against the bank on the basis of the charges being unfair, i.e. there is no point in amending the particulars unless we really know exactly what we're doing?

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No , sparkers , not at the moment , but if the court is not pestering you to do something , why not leave it until the Scottish case is resolved one way or the other :

 

This thread is located at:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=248268&goto=newpost

 

Here is the message that has just been posted:

***************

I see Govan Law Centre are to be on Rip Off Britain discussing bank charges. http://govanlc.blogspot.com/

***************

 

There may still be some mileage in this angle , so why abandon it unless you have to .....I saw that programme ,,,Angela Rippon ,Gloria Hunniford and Jennie Bond certainly re-surrected the injustices again ...... so who knows ? :-)

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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  • 2 months later...

It appears there were basically 2 errors fatal to the case

1. That no specific instances were given of the unfair relationship.This is vital. Had this been done then the outcome may have been different.

2. That people need to be careful regarding the exact wording of Sec 140 claims which are in any case date dependent.

 

My thoughts are that the prior arguments in the case were not relevant at all, certainly the reference to common law when it had already been decided that this was not relevent and that the common law penalty argument was dead in the water.

 

Starting with section 140 and going on to argue UTCCA would have been more successful. I will let you know how mine goes.

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  • 1 month later...

Hiya Disgruntled its good to see someone else is "having a go" :-) with regard to my claim I will openly admit I got fed up with the lack of progress so I decided to proceed come hell or high water... the POC's you have seen were my best shot writing on my own, I had hoped to get some input from other CAG members, especialy the more experienced and those with some legal training but this did not materialise... actualy thats a lie Caro helped as much as she could and Bookie was very supportive :-) I still believe the basic arguments I used are sound but "precedence" favours the banks.

 

It appears there were basically 2 errors fatal to the case

1. That no specific instances were given of the unfair relationship.This is vital. Had this been done then the outcome may have been different.

I agree, in hind sight my argument would have been much stronger if I had done this

2. That people need to be careful regarding the exact wording of Sec 140 claims which are in any case date dependent.

My own claim was on the cusp of which set of regulations were in effect... I chose the earlier regulations, the barester managed to convince the judge I had used the wrong regulations.

My thoughts are that the prior arguments in the case were not relevant at all, certainly the reference to common law when it had already been decided that this was not relevent and that the common law penalty argument was dead in the water.

I agree, but I left it in the claim because I thought it added weight to the overall unfair relationship argument.

Starting with section 140 and going on to argue UTCCA would have been more successful. I will let you know how mine goes.

 

Please do :-) the more information / arguments we receive... win or loose... the better the chance we have of getting a fair banking system one day

 

pete

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Hi Pete , great to see you posting again ... :) I've been a bit quiet (CAG-wise ) myself lately ..

 

Now I find myself needing some advice for my son , I hope you , or someone can help ...

 

He's had his case stayed in Court since the (disastrous) OFT case kicked in - the bank were just on the verge of paying up when the shutters came down :(

 

He's now had a letter from the court asking what his intentions are and giving him a time limit to reply ...

 

Now , I've still got your (IMHO) excellent POCs pete , but unfortunately they didn't seem to work in your court .... :(

Have you any suggestions , or would he be better asking the court to keep the stay until the Scottish cases are resolved .... ?

 

Your advice would be much appreciated mate ..

TIA

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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Hiya Disgruntled its good to see someone else is "having a go" :-) with regard to my claim I will openly admit I got fed up with the lack of progress so I decided to proceed come hell or high water... the POC's you have seen were my best shot writing on my own, I had hoped to get some input from other CAG members, especialy the more experienced and those with some legal training but this did not materialise... actualy thats a lie Caro helped as much as she could and Bookie was very supportive :-) I still believe the basic arguments I used are sound but "precedence" favours the banks.

 

Only just noticed these posts Pete. Wish I could have done more and the outcome had been different but you know how I feel about this. It's good that you had the courage of your convictions and gave it your best shot.

 

There is still a tiny chink of hope in the cases which Govan Law Centre are fighting and they now have the Scottish equivalent of legal aid to help which is fantastic. If anyone's interesed in continuing to dissect the arguments, you may be interested in this thread. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?300503-Credit-Card-charges-vs-Bank-Charges&p=3354110&viewfull=1#post3354110

 

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  • 1 year later...

Hello Pete. Great to see you posting once again. I trust you are well old friend:-D

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Hiya Freaky my old mate, how’s the sheep , and so to continue the saga...

 

I had lost in court, my first and only loss to date, so I owed them the money we had been arguing over for 3 years, fortunately this was my second claim so we were only arguing about 4 months bank charges, around £500. I was also out of work and claiming benefit at this time. HSBC did what they had been trying to do for a long time and within days had assigned (sold) the balance of my account to a DCA who were in actual fact very understanding and agreed I could pay this debt off at £10 a month which I did without fail.

 

January 2012 - I receive two letters, one from HSBC stating they have sold the account to a company called Sigma SVP1 Limited (Sigma Red) and one from Sigma Red asking for the outstanding balance of the debt. I wrote back to both stating this debt had already been sold and I was happily paying the first DCA and had been since December 2010.

 

I was told to stop paying the first DCA immediately and to pay Sigma Red. Now, I have moved on since I took pleasure in running these idiots around till the cows come home although I was tempted but PD told me to pay it and get it out of the way as I was working again by now so I did just that, I sent a cheque for the balance of the debt, less what had been paid to the first DCA... All cleared up and settled?... nope, I got a solicitors letter saying I would need to prove the existence of the payments to the first DCA and Sigma Red placed a default on my credit record.

 

Now call me an old softie if you like but I actually still trust these idiots to know what they are doing so I actually don’t have any records of the agreements with the first DCA or the payments apart from the monthly direct debits from my bank on my bank statements. I wrote back pointing out to the solicitor the only way I would be able to prove anything would be with a subject access request which would cost me £10 but HSBC are bound by statute law to keep records of their dealings.

 

I also sent this letter to the FOS asking them to investigate and review the credit licences of HSBC, Sigma Red and the solicitor. Sigma Red seem to have gone quiet and I await the response from the FOS.

 

Ho hum, things should be so much easier than this when you live on a narrowboat

 

Pete

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